Jesus in the Qur'an and the Bible

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE:love]

Fatihah, These words could have come out of my own mouth.
I was in my early twenties headed down a dead end road and didn't even know it. I hadn't been to church since I was a small child.
Scripture started coming to me that I hadn't thought of in years. "Seek and you shall find, knock and the doors shall be opened for you."
I started seeking. I started reading the Bible and praying. I felt God calling me.
I felt compelled to find my dad who I had not seen or heard from since I was twelve years old. With practically no money but a pocket over-flowing with faith I set off on my journey. I knew he would be somewhere in Chattanooga, Tenn.. I don't remember all the circumstances I went through to find him but I did.
He lived in a small one bedroom apartment on Duncan Avenue. He was almost completely blind and had as little money as I had but he made room for me.
Two blocks from his apartment was Tennesee Temple University. There were hundreds and hundreds of Christian students my age who lived all around me. I knew God had brought me there.
I was Baptized in the Holy Spirit on Feb. 14, 1974. In the twinkling of an eye my life was changed forever.

Response: That's a very beautiful story. I can't say that it isn't. This is a story similar to most christians. But the question is whether or not the scriptures are true. All christians seem to be moved by some life experience or a few verses and say that's enough to say that the whole bible is true simply off of emotion and not logic.

Drugs like cocaine and marijuana can make a person feel good as well but that does not make it logical to say that it's o.k. to use them. If something in your life experience moved you to be closer to God, that's a beautiful thing and I don't knock it. But this does not make the whole bible suddenly true.

 

[blueman]

The Bible clearly reflects the true nature and diety of Jesus Christ. There is no other spiritual book that is written within the same or within one generation of when Christ lived than the New Testament of the Bible. Not to mention the number of Old Testament prophecies regarding Christ that were written hundreds of years prior to His virgin birth. The Quran acknowledges the virgin birth of Christ, but rejects Jesus's diety as the Son of God. That compounded with the fact it was written 600 years after the NT Gospels and Epistles makes it problematic in being an authority regarding the nature of Christ.

 

[Fatihah]

The Bible clearly reflects the true nature and diety of Jesus Christ. There is no other spiritual book that is written within the same or within one generation of when Christ lived than the New Testament of the Bible. Not to mention the number of Old Testament prophecies regarding Christ that were written hundreds of years prior to His virgin birth. The Quran acknowledges the virgin birth of Christ, but rejects Jesus's diety as the Son of God. That compounded with the fact it was written 600 years after the NT Gospels and Epistles makes it problematic in being an authority regarding the nature of Christ.

Response: The bible itself rejects the deity of Jesus. No where in the bible does Jesus say from his own mouth that he is God or worship him.

 

[love]

All christians seem to be moved by some life experience

It's called being born again.

But this does not make the whole bible suddenly true.

How could my life experience make the bible suddenly true if it was not already true?
Just as you believe the Quran to be true, I believe the bible to be true.
If either one of us try to convince the other beyond a shadow of doubt that our belief is the true one we will only appear to be foolish and closed minded.
Christ is very real in my life as is the Holy Spirit, or Comforter as it is referred to in the New Testament. I am not saved by religion, I am not saved by scripture, I am not saved by good works. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Muhammed omitted this part so his word has no power for me. For me he cannot be the comforter that many Muslims believe him to be because he does not have the power and authority over all things

 

[Fatihah]

How could my life experience make the bible suddenly true if it was not already true?

Response: That's an answer I would like to know as well.

Quote: love
Just as you believe the Quran to be true, I believe the bible to be true.
If either one of us try to convince the other beyond a shadow of doubt that our belief is the true one we will only appear to be foolish and closed minded.
Christ is very real in my life as is the Holy Spirit, or Comforter as it is referred to in the New Testament. I am not saved by religion, I am not saved by scripture, I am not saved by good works. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Muhammed omitted this part so his word has no power for me. For me he cannot be the comforter that many Muslims believe him to be because he does not have the power and authority over all things

Response: You first begin by saying that if either of us try to convince the other that our belief is right is closed minded, to which I agree. But you conclude by saying that Muhammad ommitted the act of Jesus saving you through his blood, therefore he has no power over you. But to say that means that you have closed your mind on any logic that Jesus did not save anyone through his blood. And as you have said, that would be foolish, right?

 

[challupa]

Response: The bible itself rejects the deity of Jesus. No where in the bible does Jesus say from his own mouth that he is God or worship him.

Actually there is a verse in John where he alludes to everyone, including himself, as being gods. He didn't just think he was unique, but that everyone was like him and just didn't realize their true nature like he did.

 

[Fatihah]

Actually there is a verse in John where he alludes to everyone, including himself, as being gods. He didn't just think he was unique, but that everyone was like him and just didn't realize their true nature like he did.

Response: Yes, he does. He says, "Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are Gods"? (John 10:34) In other words, a person who is close to God is a Godly person but not God by nature.

 

[blueman]

Response: The bible itself rejects the deity of Jesus. No where in the bible does Jesus say from his own mouth that he is God or worship him.

That's not true and you know it. In John 8:58, Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I am." This spoke to His eternal nature. In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one". This speaks to Jesus sharing the essence and attributes of God The Father. In John 5:22,23 Jesus says: "Moreover, The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father". This speaks of the authority given to the Son to judge. Other scriptures point to Jesus's authority to forgive sins, in which both judgement and forgiveness of sins rest with God. Jesus implicit and explicit reference to His power and authority as equal with God The Father is primarily the sole reason why the religious leaders were so diligent in having Him killed. Their primary charge? Blasphemy. This meant they felt Jesus was putting Himself on an equal footing with God. If it wasn't ambiguis to them, why is it to you Fatihah??

 

[challupa]

Response: Yes, he does. He says, "Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are Gods"? (John 10:34) In other words, a person who is close to God is a Godly person but not God by nature.

I took that to mean that we were all gods because how can we not be? If god is everything, we are a personalized version of god.

 

[Fatihah]

That's not true and you know it. In John 8:58, Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I am." This spoke to His eternal nature.

Response: Again I say, no where in the bible did Jesus himself say "I am God" or "Worship me". So you present a statement. What does it say? It says, "before Abraham was, I am". O.K.

Does this:"I am God",

Look like this:"Before Abraham was, I am"? No. Not even close.

Jesus never says,"I am God" and neither does your statement, nor does it mean he is God. The word God is not even there.

Quote: blueman
In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one". This speaks to Jesus sharing the essence and attributes of God The Father.

Response: And yet again, the words, "I am God" is not there. Instead what you do is bring a statement and give it meaning which is not it's meaning. In order to know the meaning of the text, we must first know it's context. So I'm asking the question, what is the context?

Verse 27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Verse 28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any (man) pluck them out of my hand

Verse 29: My Father, who gave (them) me, is greater than all; and no (man) is able to pluck (them) out of my Father's hand

Verse 30: I and (my) Father are one.

The verse clearly says that they are one in "purpose" not one and the same. That purpose is bringing people closer to God. If they are one and the same, meaning Jesus is God, then Jesus would not say that his Father is greater than all. If he is God, who is greater then him?

Quote: blueman
In John 5:22,23 Jesus says: "Moreover, The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father". This speaks of the authority given to the Son to judge.

Response: Right. But when we go just 7 verses down, we read in verse 30:

"I can of mine own self do nothing, As I hear I judge, and my judgement is just. Because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

In this verse, Jesus clearly says that he judges based on what he hears from the Father, thus contridicting verse 22,23 which says that the Father does not judge and all judgement is entrusted in Jesus. You have just helped to point out one of the many contridictions in the bible.

Quote: blueman
Other scriptures point to Jesus's authority to forgive sins, in which both judgement and forgiveness of sins rest with God. Jesus implicit and explicit reference to His power and authority as equal with God The Father is primarily the sole reason why the religious leaders were so diligent in having Him killed. Their primary charge? Blasphemy. This meant they felt Jesus was putting Himself on an equal footing with God. If it wasn't ambiguis to them, why is it to you Fatihah??

Response: But it was ambiguous to them. If it was clear that Jesus is God or claiming divinity than they would not charge him with blasphemy. And in Matthew 21:11 we read:

"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee".

Notice it says "the multitude said". This means that a large number of people acknowledged Jesus as a prophet. Not God, not divine, not one of a trinity, but a prophet.

 

[Fatihah]

I took that to mean that we were all gods because how can we not be? If god is everything, we are a personalized version of god.

Response: But God is not everything and the bible does not say he is. We are "godly" people if we follow the law of God appropriately but we are not Gods. We can die. Can God die?

 

[challupa]

Response: But God is not everything and the bible does not say he is. We are "godly" people if we follow the law of God appropriately but we are not Gods. We can die. Can God die?

I believe we can only die physically and in some religions that isn't dying but going into another phase of living. A transformation. God is everything, there is a part of God in everything if he made everything. I think that is what the Buddhas and Jesus's have been trying to get mankind to understand. We are all divine and we're just not aware of it like they were. That is why they have all been saying "wake up"!

 

[blueman]

That's not true and you know it. In John 8:58, Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I am." This spoke to His eternal nature.

Response: Again I say, no where in the bible did Jesus himself say "I am God" or "Worship me". So you present a statement. What does it say? It says, "before Abraham was, I am". O.K.

Does this:"I am God",

Look like this:"Before Abraham was, I am"? No. Not even close.

Jesus never says,"I am God" and neither does your statement, nor does it mean he is God. The word God is not even there.

Quote: blueman
In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one". This speaks to Jesus sharing the essence and attributes of God The Father.

Response: And yet again, the words, "I am God" is not there. Instead what you do is bring a statement and give it meaning which is not it's meaning. In order to know the meaning of the text, we must first know it's context. So I'm asking the question, what is the context?

Verse 27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Verse 28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any (man) pluck them out of my hand

Verse 29: My Father, who gave (them) me, is greater than all; and no (man) is able to pluck (them) out of my Father's hand

Verse 30: I and (my) Father are one.

The verse clearly says that they are one in "purpose" not one and the same. That purpose is bringing people closer to God. If they are one and the same, meaning Jesus is God, then Jesus would not say that his Father is greater than all. If he is God, who is greater then him?

Quote: blueman
In John 5:22,23 Jesus says: "Moreover, The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father". This speaks of the authority given to the Son to judge.

Response: Right. But when we go just 7 verses down, we read in verse 30:

"I can of mine own self do nothing, As I hear I judge, and my judgement is just. Because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

In this verse, Jesus clearly says that he judges based on what he hears from the Father, thus contridicting verse 22,23 which says that the Father does not judge and all judgement is entrusted in Jesus. You have just helped to point out one of the many contridictions in the bible.

Quote: blueman
Other scriptures point to Jesus's authority to forgive sins, in which both judgement and forgiveness of sins rest with God. Jesus implicit and explicit reference to His power and authority as equal with God The Father is primarily the sole reason why the religious leaders were so diligent in having Him killed. Their primary charge? Blasphemy. This meant they felt Jesus was putting Himself on an equal footing with God. If it wasn't ambiguis to them, why is it to you Fatihah??

Response: But it was ambiguous to them. If it was clear that Jesus is God or claiming divinity than they would not charge him with blasphemy. And in Matthew 21:11 we read:

"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee".

Notice it says "the multitude said". This means that a large number of people acknowledged Jesus as a prophet. Not God, not divine, not one of a trinity, but a prophet.

Your not even close to proving your point. If the multitude felt that Jesus was just a prophet, why did so many convert from Judaism to Christianity during the period of His ministry and within 20 years of His death and resurrection? The verses that were referenced clearly implies who Jesus thought and knew that He was. You never answered the question as to why the leaders wanted him cruxified based on the charge of blasphemy? They thought from Jesus statements that He was putting himself on equal footing with God. The early church leaders felt the same way (John, Peter, Timothy, Paul, Polycarp, Ignatius) not to mention the synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. You have a steep hill to climb as a Muslim in disproving the diety of Jesus. The Quran being written 600 years later by a man who claimed to be a prophet, but prophesied about nothing is not an authorative source to disprove Jesus's claim otherwise.

 

[Fatihah]

[QUOTE: challupa]I believe we can only die physically and in some religions that isn't dying but going into another phase of living. A transformation. God is everything, there is a part of God in everything if he made everything.

Response: God is everything? This is not what the bible or qur'an says which is what the topic of the thread is focused on in relation to Jesus.

Quote: challupa
I think that is what the Buddhas and Jesus's have been trying to get mankind to understand. We are all divine and we're just not aware of it like they were. That is why they have all been saying "wake up"!

Response: From my knowledge, the hindu belief is that God is in everything. But this is not the teaching of Jesus in the qur'an or the bible.

 

[blueman]

That's not true and you know it. In John 8:58, Jesus says "Before Abraham was, I am." This spoke to His eternal nature.

Response: Again I say, no where in the bible did Jesus himself say "I am God" or "Worship me". So you present a statement. What does it say? It says, "before Abraham was, I am". O.K.

Does this:"I am God",

Look like this:"Before Abraham was, I am"? No. Not even close.

Jesus never says,"I am God" and neither does your statement, nor does it mean he is God. The word God is not even there.

Quote: blueman
In John 10:30, Jesus says "I and the Father are one". This speaks to Jesus sharing the essence and attributes of God The Father.

Response: And yet again, the words, "I am God" is not there. Instead what you do is bring a statement and give it meaning which is not it's meaning. In order to know the meaning of the text, we must first know it's context. So I'm asking the question, what is the context?

Verse 27: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Verse 28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any (man) pluck them out of my hand

Verse 29: My Father, who gave (them) me, is greater than all; and no (man) is able to pluck (them) out of my Father's hand

Verse 30: I and (my) Father are one.

The verse clearly says that they are one in "purpose" not one and the same. That purpose is bringing people closer to God. If they are one and the same, meaning Jesus is God, then Jesus would not say that his Father is greater than all. If he is God, who is greater then him?

Quote: blueman
In John 5:22,23 Jesus says: "Moreover, The Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgement to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father". This speaks of the authority given to the Son to judge.

Response: Right. But when we go just 7 verses down, we read in verse 30:

"I can of mine own self do nothing, As I hear I judge, and my judgement is just. Because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

In this verse, Jesus clearly says that he judges based on what he hears from the Father, thus contridicting verse 22,23 which says that the Father does not judge and all judgement is entrusted in Jesus. You have just helped to point out one of the many contridictions in the bible.

Quote: blueman
Other scriptures point to Jesus's authority to forgive sins, in which both judgement and forgiveness of sins rest with God. Jesus implicit and explicit reference to His power and authority as equal with God The Father is primarily the sole reason why the religious leaders were so diligent in having Him killed. Their primary charge? Blasphemy. This meant they felt Jesus was putting Himself on an equal footing with God. If it wasn't ambiguis to them, why is it to you Fatihah??

Response: But it was ambiguous to them. If it was clear that Jesus is God or claiming divinity than they would not charge him with blasphemy. And in Matthew 21:11 we read:

"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee".

Notice it says "the multitude said". This means that a large number of people acknowledged Jesus as a prophet. Not God, not divine, not one of a trinity, but a prophet.

As Jesus prayed to the Father and sought guidance and wisdom while in the flesh on earth, He was teaching His disciples (current and future) to be dependent on God. What you fail to acknowledge is the reality of the essence of God, exhibited in three spiritual beings. We pray to one God whose essence and attributes are shared by three spiritual personalities (God the Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). The word trinity does not have to appear in the Bible rather the textual reality is reference in various biblical verses. In Genesis, God said "Let's make man in our own image". Who was He speaking with? Not angels, who were made lower than God. He was speaking to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that He and the Father were one and that before Abraham was, I am> After His ressurection and before He ascended into heaven, He told the disciples that I will send you a Comforter (The Holy Spirit), who resides in all Christians who have confessed and accepted Lord Jesus Christ as the Saviour of mankind and believe in their heart that Christ is Lord. So there is spiritual context for the trinity and the attributes of deity shared by the three distinct Spiritual beings, the essence of one God. It may be hard for our feeble minds to get our arms around, but God said in His word that "My ways are not your ways and My thoughts are not your thoughts".

 

[challupa]

I believe we can only die physically and in some religions that isn't dying but going into another phase of living. A transformation. God is everything, there is a part of God in everything if he made everything.

Response: God is everything? This is not what the bible or qur'an says which is what the topic of the thread is focused on in relation to Jesus.

Quote: challupa
I think that is what the Buddhas and Jesus's have been trying to get mankind to understand. We are all divine and we're just not aware of it like they were. That is why they have all been saying "wake up"!

Response: From my knowledge, the hindu belief is that God is in everything. But this is not the teaching of Jesus in the qur'an or the bible.

Yes you're probably right to a degree. However, Jesus has alluded to being in everything when he says pick up a stone I am there etc..... Jesus has a rather Eastern Religion tendency. He certainly brings some of their beliefs into his parables etc. But you're right, that is not what this thread is about.

 

[Fatihah]

As Jesus prayed to the Father and sought guidance and wisdom while in the flesh on earth, He was teaching His disciples (current and future) to be dependent on God. What you fail to acknowledge is the reality of the essence of God, exhibited in three spiritual beings. We pray to one God whose essence and attributes are shared by three spiritual personalities (God the Father, God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). The word trinity does not have to appear in the Bible rather the textual reality is reference in various biblical verses.

Response: I think that you are failing to realize that this is not english. You just said, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. But when I ask you how many Gods there are, you say one. Let me read this again:

God the Father(That's 1)
God the Son (That's 1)
God the Holy Spirit (That's 1)
1+1+1=3

And yet you say it's 1 God. This is not addition or english. It's just not logical.

Quote: blueman
In Genesis, God said "Let's make man in our own image". Who was He speaking with? Not angels, who were made lower than God. He was speaking to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that He and the Father were one and that before Abraham was, I am> After His ressurection and before He ascended into heaven, He told the disciples that I will send you a Comforter (The Holy Spirit), who resides in all Christians who have confessed and accepted Lord Jesus Christ as the Saviour of mankind and believe in their heart that Christ is Lord. So there is spiritual context for the trinity and the attributes of deity shared by the three distinct Spiritual beings, the essence of one God. It may be hard for our feeble minds to get our arms around, but God said in His word that "My ways are not your ways and My thoughts are not your thoughts".

Response: Jesus does speak of a "comforter" who will come after him but it doesn't say the Holy Spirit and it can't be the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was there already.

 

[smitten508]

Actually, holy spirit wasn't already present. The spirit of the lord had always been described as coming, that let's us know that he wasn't already present...

 

[Fatihah]

Actually, holy spirit wasn't already present. The spirit of the lord had always been described as coming, that let's us know that he wasn't already present...

Response: Not at all. According to the first book of the Bible, Genesis 1:2 and in Luke 1:35, the Holy Spirit was there from the beginning of creation and while Jesus was being born.

 

[Fatihah]

Your not even close to proving your point. If the multitude felt that Jesus was just a prophet, why did so many convert from Judaism to Christianity during the period of His ministry and within 20 years of His death and resurrection?

Response: Because he was a true prophet.

Quote: blueman
The verses that were referenced clearly implies who Jesus thought and knew that He was. You never answered the question as to why the leaders wanted him cruxified based on the charge of blasphemy? They thought from Jesus statements that He was putting himself on equal footing with God. The early church leaders felt the same way (John, Peter, Timothy, Paul, Polycarp, Ignatius) not to mention the synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Response: You've already answered the question as to why they wanted Jesus crucified. It was because they thought he was claiming divinity and throughout the whole bible, Jesus is trying to explain that he is a prophet of God, not God himself. Jesus never says he is God or worship him.

Quote: blueman
You have a steep hill to climb as a Muslim in disproving the diety of Jesus. The Quran being written 600 years later by a man who claimed to be a prophet, but prophesied about nothing is not an authorative source to disprove Jesus's claim otherwise.

Response: But we do not need the qur'an to tell us so and I have not tried to use the qur'an to say so. I'm showing from the bible itself that Jesus never says from his own mouth that he is God or worship him. Jesus never claims divinity. It is others who have given him the title of divinity, not him. It is also important to note that the bible itself has evidence to the contrary that Jesus was never crucified as well. This was also a misunderstanding on the part of others.