You've been refuted on this issue many times over in this very thread. It's like talking to a brick wall. You're not convincing anyone by dancing around the issue. Muhammad simply had no idea what he was talking about when he composed the Quran, as is to be expected from an illiterate 7th century Arab with a pagan background (those are facts, not insults). It's clear he had no grounding in Biblical scripture whatsoever, which is why the Quran contradicts the Gospel while at the same time claiming to confirm it!
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Jesus in the Qur'an and the Bible
- Thread starter Fatihah
- Start date
You've been refuted on this issue many times over in this very thread. It's like talking to a brick wall. You're not convincing anyone by dancing around the issue. Muhammad simply had no idea what he was talking about when he composed the Quran, as is to be expected from an illiterate 7th century Arab with a pagan background (those are facts, not insults). It's clear he had no grounding in Biblical scripture whatsoever, which is why the Quran contradicts the Gospel while at the same time claiming to confirm it!
Response: The simple fact that you couldn't refute anything I've said in your response is evidence enough as to the truth of the matter. Even more so when you haven't provided any evidence of your own assertions of Muhammad (pbuh).
Which proof do you want, his illiteracy, his coming from 7th century Arabia, his lack of knowledge of the Bible, his composition of the Quran?
It simply isn't possible for you as a believing Muslim to take an objective view in this matter, for you, the Quran must be right in all its particulars, no matter how absurd on the surface. How could you not say that which is absurd?
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Muhammad did know enough about Jewish and Christian texts to use them to butress his claims of being a Prophet during his day. Given the fact that most were not impressed by his claims at the time is more than enough reason for us to doubt his claims 1400 years later. The point is these allegations of Muhammad being referred to in the texts of both religions is a foundational idea in Islam perpetrated by none other than Muhammad himself. It can be no surprise that Muslims will dig their feet in on this point and never admit otherwise even against the fact that no respected Christian scholars have ever agreed with the supposition.
One must bear in mind, Shahzad, that one mans absurdity is another mans truth, so this conversation will go on without end even though Fatihah cannot actually prove a thing he is trying to convey except that his interpretation of the Christian scriptures is tainted by the words of the Qur'an.
This taint is delightfully expressed in his myopic view of the Trinity, meanwhile completely ignoring the Trinity as it appears in Islam.
1 - Allah
2 - Muhammad
3 - The Qur'an
This is the inescapable Trinity in Islam. What I don't understand is how Muslims can claim that Muhammad is not a partner to God, as without Muhammad the Qur'an would never have seen the light of day.
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Are you serious? There are enough threads on here about errors in the Quran disproving it's divine origin, it's already been established the Quran is of human origin which is the default hypothesis in any case. What no one has ever done is to prove its been written by an omnisicent god.
YmirGF said:
He knew they existed and expressed his belief in them but he had little knowledge of what they actually contained, otherwise he would not have made so many obvious blunders.
[QUOTE:YmirGF]Muhammad did know enough about Jewish and Christian texts to use them to butress his claims of being a Prophet during his day. Given the fact that most were not impressed by his claims at the time is more than enough reason for us to doubt his claims 1400 years later. The point is these allegations of Muhammad being referred to in the texts of both religions is a foundational idea in Islam perpetrated by none other than Muhammad himself. It can be no surprise that Muslims will dig their feet in on this point and never admit otherwise even against the fact that no respected Christian scholars have ever agreed with the supposition.
Response: I'm reading statements. Where's the proof.
Quote: YmirGF
One must bear in mind, Shahzad, that one mans absurdity is another mans truth, so this conversation will go on without end even though Fatihah cannot actually prove a thing he is trying to convey except that his interpretation of the Christian scriptures is tainted by the words of the Qur'an.
Response: Many statements, yet no proof. A clear indication of a person's inability to refute the evidence, thus confirming their denial.
Quote: YmirGF
This taint is delightfully expressed in his myopic view of the Trinity, meanwhile completely ignoring the Trinity as it appears in Islam.
1 - Allah
2 - Muhammad
3 - The Qur'an
This is the inescapable Trinity in Islam. What I don't understand is how Muslims can claim that Muhammad is not a partner to God, as without Muhammad the Qur'an would never have seen the light of day.
Response: Another assertion, another example confirming the response above.
Response: I'm reading statements. Where's the proof.
Quote: YmirGF
One must bear in mind, Shahzad, that one mans absurdity is another mans truth, so this conversation will go on without end even though Fatihah cannot actually prove a thing he is trying to convey except that his interpretation of the Christian scriptures is tainted by the words of the Qur'an.
Response: Many statements, yet no proof. A clear indication of a person's inability to refute the evidence, thus confirming their denial.
Quote: YmirGF
This taint is delightfully expressed in his myopic view of the Trinity, meanwhile completely ignoring the Trinity as it appears in Islam.
1 - Allah
2 - Muhammad
3 - The Qur'an
This is the inescapable Trinity in Islam. What I don't understand is how Muslims can claim that Muhammad is not a partner to God, as without Muhammad the Qur'an would never have seen the light of day.
Response: Another assertion, another example confirming the response above.
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is an illogical statement. The word illogical doesn't mean "not based on logic." It means "not logical." It is quite logical to believe in something that isn't based on logic. It is illogical to believe that logic will provide the answers when the evidence shows that it will not.
Hitler burned people in ovens because it was logical to do so. A Christian holds to the commandment "thou shalt not murder." I would suppose that God has a good reason for saying so but the fact remains that we don't need to know the reasoning only that God says so. And in fact Islam works on the same basis: hear and obey.
You are imtimating that logic always provides the truth. I will provide a simple sillogism to show that it doesn't.
Red is a color
Blood is red.
Therefore blood is a color.
The statement is logical but the conclusion is false.
Actually the Bible does have cases where God lied. I think you have been deceived by Iblis if you think He doesn't.
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[QUOTE:Shahzad]Are you serious? There are enough threads on here about errors in the Quran disproving it's divine origin, it's already been established the Quran is of human origin which is the default hypothesis in any case. What no one has ever done is to prove its been written by an omnisicent god.
Response: And within those same threads, the authenticity of the qur'an has been proven. The qur'an is the word of Allah and all that is in it is true.
Quote: Shahzad
He knew they existed and expressed his belief in them but he had little knowledge of what they actually contained, otherwise he would not have made so many obvious blunders.
Response: Now all we need is the proof of your assertion.
Response: And within those same threads, the authenticity of the qur'an has been proven. The qur'an is the word of Allah and all that is in it is true.
Quote: Shahzad
He knew they existed and expressed his belief in them but he had little knowledge of what they actually contained, otherwise he would not have made so many obvious blunders.
Response: Now all we need is the proof of your assertion.
[QUOTE:Muffled]This is an illogical statement. The word illogical doesn't mean "not based on logic." It means "not logical." It is quite logical to believe in something that isn't based on logic. It is illogical to believe that logic will provide the answers when the evidence shows that it will not.[/COLOR]
Response: It is quite logical to believe in something that isn't based on logic? Nothing to say to that. Thanks for the honesty in confirming the logic of christian belief.
Quote: Muffled
Hitler burned people in ovens because it was logical to do so. A Christian holds to the commandment "thou shalt not murder." I would suppose that God has a good reason for saying so but the fact remains that we don't need to know the reasoning only that God says so. And in fact Islam works on the same basis: hear and obey.
Response: You don't need to know the reason why God tells you a commandment? Again, I have nothing to say. This once again only confirms the logic of christianity and how irrational it is.
As for islam, yes we hear and obey, but there is still a rational and logical reasoning behind it and what we are obeying.
Quote: Muffled
You are imtimating that logic always provides the truth. I will provide a simple sillogism to show that it doesn't.
Red is a color
Blood is red.
Therefore blood is a color.
The statement is logical but the conclusion is false.
Actually the Bible does have cases where God lied. I think you have been deceived by Iblis if you think He doesn't.
Response: God lies as well? Mind blowing!! Yet again, thanks for the honesty. But to be honest, I don't think many christians believe as you do.
Response: It is quite logical to believe in something that isn't based on logic? Nothing to say to that. Thanks for the honesty in confirming the logic of christian belief.
Quote: Muffled
Hitler burned people in ovens because it was logical to do so. A Christian holds to the commandment "thou shalt not murder." I would suppose that God has a good reason for saying so but the fact remains that we don't need to know the reasoning only that God says so. And in fact Islam works on the same basis: hear and obey.
Response: You don't need to know the reason why God tells you a commandment? Again, I have nothing to say. This once again only confirms the logic of christianity and how irrational it is.
As for islam, yes we hear and obey, but there is still a rational and logical reasoning behind it and what we are obeying.
Quote: Muffled
You are imtimating that logic always provides the truth. I will provide a simple sillogism to show that it doesn't.
Red is a color
Blood is red.
Therefore blood is a color.
The statement is logical but the conclusion is false.
Actually the Bible does have cases where God lied. I think you have been deceived by Iblis if you think He doesn't.
Response: God lies as well? Mind blowing!! Yet again, thanks for the honesty. But to be honest, I don't think many christians believe as you do.
How utterly pathetic.
The Quran tells the Jews and Christians to judge according to their own scriptures, but if they do that it contradicts the Quran! It just goes to show that Muhammad didn't know what he was talking about.
[QUOTE:Shahzad]
The Quran tells the Jews and Christians to judge according to their own scriptures, but if they do that it contradicts the Quran! It just goes to show that Muhammad didn't know what he was talking about.[/QUOTE]
Response: Now all that is needed is the verse of the qur'an which tells the jews and christians to judge according to their own scriptures.
The Quran tells the Jews and Christians to judge according to their own scriptures, but if they do that it contradicts the Quran! It just goes to show that Muhammad didn't know what he was talking about.[/QUOTE]
Response: Now all that is needed is the verse of the qur'an which tells the jews and christians to judge according to their own scriptures.
Oh ffs, any knowledgeable Muslim should know that.
5:43
PICKTHAL: How come they unto thee for judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers.
5:47
PICKTHAL: Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.
Response: True. Now just simply read the very next verse:
"And We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth, fulfilling that which was before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it.
(Now the important part)
Judge, therefore, between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil desires, from the truth which has come to thee."
The verse says that the qur'an is a fulfillment of their own books and now they should judge by the qur'an.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
But why on Earth would non-believers seriously consider the words of a prophet they do not believe in? It doesn't really matter what the Qur'an has to say on the issue.
Actually it's telling the reader to "judge according to what Allah has revealed", that includes the Torah and the Gospels as is obvious according to 5:47. 5:43 and 5:47 clearly tell the Jews and Christians to judge according to their own scriptures, which Muhammad believed in but had no idea what they contained.
Response: And Allah has revealed the qur'an as a fulfillment to their scriptures as verse 5:48 clearly says so they are to now follow the qur'an. Following the qur'an is a judgement made in the torah and gospels.
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YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
But that is true only insofar as one give any kind of credit to the Qur'an. This response neatly ignores the simple fact that Non-muslims do not accept the prophethood of Muhammad or the authority of the Qur'an. It is because of this that the ayat in question has no impact on the non-believer as its authenticity is not accepted. Is this hard to understand?
Two points.
Firstly you've tried to change the goalposts. You asked for the verses telling the Jews and Christians to judge according to their scriptures which I gave, scriptures which flat out contradict the Quran.
Secondly 5:48 clearly doesn't tell the Jews and Christians to judge according to the Quran (why would the Quran contradict itself in verses 5:43 and 5:47?), it tells Muhammad to judge according to the Quran, and that to each people (such as the Jews and Christians) Allah has given a law to judge according to. 5:48 is also in error in claiming the Quran confirms the previous scriptures when it contradicts it. Only a complete ignoramus could make such a schoolboy error.
Firstly you've tried to change the goalposts. You asked for the verses telling the Jews and Christians to judge according to their scriptures which I gave, scriptures which flat out contradict the Quran.
Secondly 5:48 clearly doesn't tell the Jews and Christians to judge according to the Quran (why would the Quran contradict itself in verses 5:43 and 5:47?), it tells Muhammad to judge according to the Quran, and that to each people (such as the Jews and Christians) Allah has given a law to judge according to. 5:48 is also in error in claiming the Quran confirms the previous scriptures when it contradicts it. Only a complete ignoramus could make such a schoolboy error.