Jesus in the Qur'an and the Bible

[Muffled]

Response: O.K. I see now. Interesting. This seems to be the same for all christians too. There is a dream or voice or life experience that makes them believe. I do not denounce the impact of life experience but I can't reject what is logical and true because of an experience. This is the big differene between islam and christianity. I'm sure that the dream may have had an impact on you but that would not mean that everything mentioned about Jesus in the bible is true to me.

A dream does not make something true. I use to dream I could jump in the air and glide from the top of the stairs in my house to the bottom in one leap when I was younger. But that dream is not reality. If I tried that in real life I would hurt myself. This is the exception islam takes. It's not a matter of what makes you feel good but whether or not it's true. We are to be cautious as to what we credit to God. If God says a commandment, we should follow it.

Yes you had a dream about Jesus but now what happens to logic? If a person has a dream of a two-headed dragon, is that proof that they exists? Is this logical enough to prove that two-headed dragons exists?

I've said much just now but my main questions to you would be:
Are you not compelled to find out whether the things said about Jesus is true because of your dream? And are you not the least bit concerned about attributing something to God that is not true? (Not saying that what you believe isn't true. It's a hypothetical question)

How would you do that? She already knew what the Qu'ran had to say about Jesus but in her prayer to God to reveal to her whether Jesus is the Son of God by a sign, the dream was a sign. The only other place to go to find out about Jesus is the Bible and there she would find that it is written just as God confirmed it to be through His sign.

Logic will not tell you there is a god. Atheists use logic all the time to say therre isn't one. God has to be experienced or He will never become real to you. This is the testimony of Job: Job 42:5 I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee:

If you are saying that Islam lacks an experience with God then your Islam is Godless. All you have left are empty words on paper that can't save you.

Jesus is the truth but if you are worshipping logic you are saying the thoughts of your own mind are greater than the Word of God.

 

[ayani]

So if you believe that God is just and loving and scholars present to you a doctrine that says that God tortures babies for fun (which completely contradicts just and love) do you accept it or not? If not, why if they are scholars?

well, i go by what the Bible says, Fatihah.

allow me to give a similar example from the Quran.

the text of Quran does not say anywhere that Muslims ought to hate or persecute non-Muslims. on the contrary, the Quran contains many passages encouraging inter-religious tolerance, such as 2:62, 2:265, and 5:69.

what if a scholar of the Quran declared that the Quran does say that non-Muslims are fit only to be hated and persecuted?

well, a Muslim could easily refer back to the text of the Quran and say "no, it doesn't" regardless of that scholar's opinion. or, they could chose to believe the scholar's point of view, and agree that the Quran does advocate enmity with non-Muslims, whether or not that is really true.

the same goes with the Bible. a shcolar might argue "the Bible says this!!!", and many might agree with him, even though it contradicts Judeo-Christian faith, understanding, and the very text of the Bible. who is that Jew or Christian going to believe? the scholar, or their sacred text and God-given intelligence?

 

[Fatihah]

How would you do that? She already knew what the Qu'ran had to say about Jesus but in her prayer to God to reveal to her whether Jesus is the Son of God by a sign, the dream was a sign. The only other place to go to find out about Jesus is the Bible and there she would find that it is written just as God confirmed it to be through His sign.

Logic will not tell you there is a god. Atheists use logic all the time to say therre isn't one. God has to be experienced or He will never become real to you. This is the testimony of Job: Job 42:5 I had heard of thee by the hearing of the ear; But now mine eye seeth thee:

If you are saying that Islam lacks an experience with God then your Islam is Godless. All you have left are empty words on paper that can't save you.

Jesus is the truth but if you are worshipping logic you are saying the thoughts of your own mind are greater than the Word of God.

Response: You said, "Logic will not tell you there is a god". This basically sums up the fact that christianity is illogical because it's not based on logic. How someone is able to follow something not based on logic is beyond me. And without logic to prove the truth of Jesus and your religion, than you are opening the door to crediting a lie to God. A person who truly loves and appreciates God could never do such a thing,

 

[Fatihah]

well, i go by what the Bible says, Fatihah.

allow me to give a similar example from the Quran.

the text of Quran does not say anywhere that Muslims ought to hate or persecute non-Muslims. on the contrary, the Quran contains many passages encouraging inter-religious tolerance, such as 2:62, 2:265, and 5:69.

what if a scholar of the Quran declared that the Quran does say that non-Muslims are fit only to be hated and persecuted?

well, a Muslim could easily refer back to the text of the Quran and say "no, it doesn't" regardless of that scholar's opinion. or, they could chose to believe the scholar's point of view, and agree that the Quran does advocate enmity with non-Muslims, whether or not that is really true.

the same goes with the Bible. a shcolar might argue "the Bible says this!!!", and many might agree with him, even though it contradicts Judeo-Christian faith, understanding, and the very text of the Bible. who is that Jew or Christian going to believe? the scholar, or their sacred text and God-given intelligence?

Response: This doesn't really answer the question to post 156. However, if you do not wish to answer it is o.k. But I believe that if in your heart you or any christian is not able to answer this question honestly, it would speak volumes of denial to the fact that christianity and the story of Jesus in the bible is not factual and is only being accepted through convience.

 

[Breathe]

Fatihah, that's unfair. Not only is what you said this irrelevant, but it's attacking something else that's weaker than the discussion at hand. Ayani's statement still stands. :yes:

It could easily be turned as a question on you, a scholar could easily say "All non-Muslims must be killed, and all must be converted or die. There is compulsion in religion! Even children must die!!". Why would you take him seriously when what he says goes against the Qur'an? You wouldn't. It'd be daft to.

Or if a scholar addressed a point not in the Qur'an, such as saying narcotics (drugs) are halal because the Qur'an doesn't forbid them, you wouldn't take them seriously, right? You'd think "How on earth did they come to THAT conclusion???".

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah, that's unfair. Not only is what you said this irrelevant, but it's attacking something else that's weaker than the discussion at hand. Ayani's statement still stands. :yes:

It could easily be turned as a question on you, a scholar could easily say "All non-Muslims must be killed, and all must be converted or die. There is compulsion in religion! Even children must die!!". Why would you take him seriously when what he says goes against the Qur'an? You wouldn't. It'd be daft to.

Or if a scholar addressed a point not in the Qur'an, such as saying narcotics (drugs) are halal because the Qur'an doesn't forbid them, you wouldn't take them seriously, right? You'd think "How on earth did they come to THAT conclusion???".

Response: What exactly is unfair? And it is relevant. We're discussing which scripture is true concerning Jesus, the qur'an or the bible.

 

[Breathe]

Response: What exactly is unfair? And it is relevant. We're discussing which scripture is true concerning Jesus, the qur'an or the bible.

Yes, but you asked something that is not in the Bible, so how is it related?
If a well known Islamic scholar decreed non-Muslim babies must be killed, would you believe it?

This is effectively what you have asked ayani. Now, having it turned around on you..

 

[love]

Response: I'm not saying that the Bible says this. It's a hypothetical question. Again, I would like to understand your reasoning behind your belief. So if you believe that God is just and loving and scholars present to you a doctrine that says that God tortures babies for fun (which completely contridicts just and love) do you accept it or not? If not, why if they are scholars? It's a hypothetical question.

I think this is a question better asked of our MUslim friends. Many times I have read post where Muslims quote the interpretations of "scholars" to verify the Quran and Hadiths.
I don't think you grasp the reality of the Holy Spirit that dwells in the heart of born again Christians.
When Jesus Chris ascended to the Father, He did not leave us alone to our own devises. The Holy Spirit guides us and witnesses to us all things pertaining to Jesus Christ and salvation.
The scriptures only confirm it.

 

[Fatihah]

Yes, but you asked something that is not in the Bible, so how is it related?
If a well known Islamic scholar decreed non-Muslim babies must be killed, would you believe it?

This is effectively what you have asked ayani. Now, having it turned around on you..

Response: My line of questioning is to understand what makes one except the story of Jesus in the bible as true because the topic is which of the scriptures represent the truth of Jesus. So it is relevant and ayani has no problem with it so I don't know what your issue is.

Response: As for your question, no I would not believe. So what is your point and speaking of revelance, how does your question relate to the topic?

 

[Fatihah]

I think this is a question better asked of our MUslim friends. Many times I have read post where Muslims quote the interpretations of "scholars" to verify the Quran and Hadiths.
I don't think you grasp the reality of the Holy Spirit that dwells in the heart of born again Christians.
When Jesus Chris ascended to the Father, He did not leave us alone to our own devises. The Holy Spirit guides us and witnesses to us all things pertaining to Jesus Christ and salvation.
The scriptures only confirm it.

Response: But this doesn't answer the question.

 

[Breathe]

Response: My line of questioning is to understand what makes one except the story of Jesus in the bible as true because the topic is which of the scriptures represent the truth of Jesus. So it is relevant and ayani has no problem with it so I don't know what your issue is.

You're being rude to her; that's what my problem is. When you asked her what she would do if someone said God tortures babies just for fun, and she said "No, it's not in the Bible", you said to her, "But I believe that if in your heart you or any christian is not able to answer this question honestly, it would speak volumes of denial to the fact that christianity and the story of Jesus in the bible is not factual and is only being accepted through convience." - thus you've made it so that because she wouldn't believe what someone said, she would be in the wrong despite it not being anywhere in the Bible - and you're using the fact she wouldn't believe that someone said God tortures babies for fun as a way of disproving the Bible. That's silly.

Response: As for your question, no I would not believe. So what is your point and speaking of revelance, how does your question relate to the topic?

It's showing you, don't go around attacking others with straw-man arguments if you don't want them thrown at you, especially when it's not related to the topic.

 

[YmirGF]

You're being rude to her; that's what my problem is. When you asked her what she would do if someone said God tortures babies just for fun, and she said "No, it's not in the Bible", you said to her, "But I believe that if in your heart you or any christian is not able to answer this question honestly, it would speak volumes of denial to the fact that christianity and the story of Jesus in the bible is not factual and is only being accepted through convience." - thus you've made it so that because she wouldn't believe what someone said, she would be in the wrong despite it not being anywhere in the Bible - and you're using the fact she wouldn't believe that someone said God tortures babies for fun as a way of disproving the Bible. That's silly.

It is beyond being silly, Odion, as there is a motive for doing so.

It's showing you, don't go around attacking others with straw-man arguments if you don't want them thrown at you, especially when it's not related to the topic.

You have to appreciate that it is related in Fatihah's mind. Remember, Fatihah believes the accounts in the Qur'an, probably with every particle of his/her/its being. In his/her/its mind, there is no possibility that the Qur'an is incorrect and Muslim dogma clearly states that the Bible has been corrupted. This thinking bears all the classic signs of a superiority complex.

 

[Fatihah]

You're being rude to her; that's what my problem is. When you asked her what she would do if someone said God tortures babies just for fun, and she said "No, it's not in the Bible", you said to her, "But I believe that if in your heart you or any christian is not able to answer this question honestly, it would speak volumes of denial to the fact that christianity and the story of Jesus in the bible is not factual and is only being accepted through convience." - thus you've made it so that because she wouldn't believe what someone said, she would be in the wrong despite it not being anywhere in the Bible - and you're using the fact she wouldn't believe that someone said God tortures babies for fun as a way of disproving the Bible. That's silly.

Response: That was not the question I asked her. So you need to stop being ignorant and putting words into my mouth and jumping to conclusions.

Quote: Odion
It's showing you, don't go around attacking others with straw-man arguments if you don't want them thrown at you, especially when it's not related to the topic.

Response: It's not a strawman argument and the only one guilty of a strawman is you because none of your last three post is even adressing the topic. So learn how to practice what you preach.

 

[Fatihah]

It is beyond being silly, Odion, as there is a motive for doing so.

You have to appreciate that it is related in Fatihah's mind. Remember, Fatihah believes the accounts in the Qur'an, probably will every particle of his/her/its being. In his/her/its mind, there is no possibility that the Qur'an is incorrect and Muslim dogma clearly states that the Bible has been corrupted. This thinking bears all the classic signs of a superiority complex.

Response: I see the "attack Fatihah" attitude that you are so obsessed with is still there. Perhaps if you took some of the time and energy you have in your fixation of me and put it to use like helping the poor or something, you would be better off. So hurry up and respond to this in your usual immature way(because I know you will) so we can see another example of your maturity and I can be on my way.

 

[Breathe]

Response: That was not the question I asked her. So you need to stop being ignorant and putting words into my mouth and jumping to conclusions.

Wow, I'd think your memory would be up to scratch if I knew you weren't just flatly denying it; I'd suggest you read you go read your post again.

Response: It's not a strawman argument and the only one guilty of a strawman is you because none of your last three post is even adressing the topic.

"Do you believe that if a scholar said God tortures babies for fun they'd be right?"
"No, because it's not in the Bible."
"Christian's can't answer this properly, and this proves the Bible is false and Jesus is the Jesus of the Qur'an and not the Bible. Christians are so dishonest."

That's pretty straw-man-y to me.

So learn how to practice what you preach.

Woo, we have a tu quoque here too!

Going back to the all-important topic, YmirGF was right a LONG time ago in this post. Why is something written 600 years later by a guy who never met him and only set foot into the same country as Jesus on a magic horse more reliable than the accounts of children and disciples of the people who were originally there?

 

[YmirGF]

Response: It's not a strawman argument and the only one guilty of a strawman is you because none of your last three post is even adressing the topic. So learn how to practice what you preach.

I wonder, Fatihah, have you ever considered that both texts could be little more that mythologies built around the life of Christ? For example, we have no actual evidence that Christ ever existed. No, not even a shred. All we have are anecdotal accounts of what he is supposed to have said and done with no physical evidence to backup any of it.

Now supposing that Christ was a real person, realistically speaking, which version of events would you normally be inclined to accept. The version of events as outlined by many eye witnesses or contemporaries of Christ or the version of events given by a single person five hundred years after the events in question.

Let's even allow for the wide discrepancies found in eye witness accounts, but likewise consider the fact that not another single person in history has come up with evidence that the accounts presented by Muhammad are in any way accurate.

In your mind, logically speaking, which is likely the more credible source?

Response: I see the "attack Fatihah" attitude that you are so obsessed with is still there. Perhaps if you took some of the time and energy you have in your fixation of me and put it to use like helping the poor or something, you would be better off. So hurry up and respond to this in your usual immature way(because I know you will) so we can see another example of your maturity and I can be on my way.

I thought I was being rather generous with you on this one, Fatihah. Can I assume you still have hurt feelings about being so utterly defeated in the "scientific miracles" thread?
I am curious though why you think my comments are somehow immature. Is this a weak attempt at attacking my credibility, Fatihah?

 

[Fatihah]

Wow, I'd think your memory would be up to scratch if I knew you weren't just flatly denying it; I'd suggest you read you go read your post again.

Response: No you need to reread the post again and try to learn how to comprehend.

Quote: Odion
"Do you believe that if a scholar said God tortures babies for fun they'd be right?"
"No, because it's not in the Bible."
"Christian's can't answer this properly, and this proves the Bible is false and Jesus is the Jesus of the Qur'an and not the Bible. Christians are so dishonest."

That's pretty straw-man-y to me.

Response: Yes. To you. And might I add that it is not healthy to have a conversation with yourself. The answer to the question you asked above are your own words, not mine. No need to talk to yourself.

Quote: Odion
Going back to the all-important topic, YmirGF was right a LONG time ago in this post. Why is something written 600 years later by a guy who never met him and only set foot into the same country as Jesus on a magic horse more reliable than the accounts of children and disciples of the people who were originally there?

Response: Who said that these are true accounts of people who were originally there?

 

[Breathe]

Response: No you need to reread the post again and try to learn how to comprehend.

Oooh, personal attacks too!

Response: Yes. To you. And might I add that it is not healthy to have a conversation with yourself. The answer to the question you asked above are your own words, not mine. No need to talk to yourself.

And again! I'm impressed!

Response: Who said that these are true accounts of people who were originally there?

Nobody, but they have more basis in truthfulness and factuality than someone who came hundreds of years later.

 

[YmirGF]

Silly Response: Who said that these are true accounts of people who were originally there?

It is reasonable to conclude that the early writers of what became the Bible likely believed what they were writing was true. It's a bit of a stretch to think that a whole bunch of people decided to concoct the set of stories two thousand years ago for the purpose of deceiving others.

On the Muslim side of the equation, there is only one source, only one man, that the differing version of events spring from.

In my view that makes it a "no contest", especially given the fact the Muhammad never offered a single shred of proof that what he was saying was accurate.
It all boils down to credibility. This is one reason why Muslims fall all over themselves to insist that Muhammad was incredibly truthful, fair and honest. Then we have the collective credibility of MANY people to compare to one person. Um... no contest. Logically, one must go with the many.

 

[Fatihah]

I thought I was being rather generous with you on this one, Fatihah. Can I assume you still have hurt feelings about being so utterly defeated in the "scientific miracles" thread?
I am curious though why you think my comments are somehow immature. Is this a weak attempt at attacking my credibility, Fatihah?

Response: The bigger question is why you would assume that I would have hurt feelings about being "allegedly" defeated in the "scientific miracles" thread? Your own words obviously show who feels defeated because here I am on another thread discussing another topic and yet here you are bringing it up. The debate obviously made an impact on you and convincingly demonstrated who feels defeated. Otherwise you would not have brought it up. Clearly it's still on your mind. These are the actions of a person who wants to redeem themself.

There is no need when referring to me to say "him/her/its" as you have in post 172. There is a male gender sign right next to my name. You don't behave this way to anyone else. But like I said, just your two recent post alone on this thread shows who feels defeated as well as your level of maturity. However, carry on (because I know you will) because by doing so I don't even have to open my mouth in proving your maturity and desire for redemption. Your own words will do it for me.

Bismilahir Rahmanir Rahim