Jesus in the Qur'an and the Bible

[Gharib]

Primarily because it's outdated. Not just in language, but also in the texts King James's scholars had available to them.

Modern translations are better because we now have more texts to go off of.

The KJV was great for its time. But its time is long up.

so how exactly can the words of god be outdated, doesn't he know the future and to say something that will not become outdated?

that means they will be man edited to fit into the present day, then after 100 years it will be repeated again so it fits into the other present time.

that doesn't sound like the word of god, does it?

 

[Breathe]

so how exactly can the words of god be outdated,

Firstly, the English translation of the Bible =/= the literal word of God. English is not a holy language; this does not mean that the Word of God are outdated, but the translation is no comprehendible to as many people.

that means they will be man edited to fit into the present day, then after 100 years it will be repeated again so it fits into the other present time. ...... that doesn't sound like the word of god, does it?

If the language changes so much so that there is a need for an up to date translation for people to understand, yes. If for example, many words and the sentence structure changes, then yes, it needs updating.

The translation of the Bible into more modern English using more up-to-date manuscripts does not make the the Bible any less the word of God; contrary to this, it means they are trying to make more reliable, by not being afraid to change and go back to earlier and more reliable sources, thus avoiding any possible errors, ommissions, additions, etc.

 

[Fatihah]

Being outdated means it no longer has the credibility it once had. Not only does it use words that are no longer used, but it uses words that have completely different meanings nowadays.

And BTW, the NIV is the most popular version.

Response: But that does not make it a bad translation. It may be least favored though. I like the KJV and many people like and use it as well.

 

[Fatihah]

well, i came to the point where i wanted to know the truth from God.... who Jesus was, and what God wanted me to do.

so one night after isha prayers, i made a du'a to God. i asked Him to please take away the loneliness and searching that was in my heart. i asked for His help to know what is right, because i could not figure out the truth on my own. i asked Him if Jesus were His Son, and if He wanted me to follow Him, and could He please send me a sign what He wanted me to do?

that night i had a dream. i was driving down the highway, in terrible weather. there was a car coming fast behind me, and i was very sacred. we were about to crash. so in this dream i called out "Lord Jesus Christ, please save me!" and the moment i did, the car behind passed right through my car, like my car was made of vapour.

Jesus' name had saved me. i woke up from this fream immediately, and somehow, my whole self was different. it's like everything had snapped into place, and was whole. God made sense, and faith made sense. later, i would learn what had happened was called being "Born again".

so since that dream, i have been following Jesus. i know Him to be God's Son, and the One whom God wants us to follow, and will point us to if we ask Him. that is how i came to believe in Jesus as a Muslim.

Response: O.K. I see now. Interesting. This seems to be the same for all christians too. There is a dream or voice or life experience that makes them believe. I do not denounce the impact of life experience but I can't reject what is logical and true because of an experience. This is the big differene between islam and christianity. I'm sure that the dream may have had an impact on you but that would not mean that everything mentioned about Jesus in the bible is true to me.

A dream does not make something true. I use to dream I could jump in the air and glide from the top of the stairs in my house to the bottom in one leap when I was younger. But that dream is not reality. If I tried that in real life I would hurt myself. This is the exception islam takes. It's not a matter of what makes you feel good but whether or not it's true. We are to be cautious as to what we credit to God. If God says a commandment, we should follow it.

Yes you had a dream about Jesus but now what happens to logic? If a person has a dream of a two-headed dragon, is that proof that they exists? Is this logical enough to prove that two-headed dragons exists?

I've said much just now but my main questions to you would be:
Are you not compelled to find out whether the things said about Jesus is true because of your dream? And are you not the least bit concerned about attributing something to God that is not true? (Not saying that what you believe isn't true. It's a hypothetical question)

 

[ayani]

Are you not compelled to find out whether the things said about Jesus is true because of your dream? And are you not the least bit concerned about attributing something to God that is not true?

oh, that interested me greatly. so i began to read the Gospels, and read what scholars had to say about the historicity of Jesus, and when the Gospels were written.

i do believe that the things written about in the Gospels are true, and attributable to God and to Jesus. i believed in God deeply enough to be sure that He would answer and help me, and i have trusted His answer.

the Quran is composed of surat and ayat revealed to Mohammad by a being no one else ever saw, by a voice only Mohammad could hear. Mohammad's revelations, not any signs or miracles, were taken as the sign of his being a chosen messenger of God. these things take faith, too.

and for Muslims, faith plays a big role, too. to make the leap from Islam to Christian faith does require a lot of logic, because Islam pays a great deal of attention to logic and reason. one has to be sure this is true. and the logical arguments and doubts and research i did lead me to the point where i was willing and to desiring to ask God directly.

 

[Fatihah]

oh, that interested me greatly. so i began to read the Gospels, and read what scholars had to say about the historicity of Jesus, and when the Gospels were written.

i do believe that the things written about in the Gospels are true, and attributable to God and to Jesus. i believed in God deeply enough to be sure that He would answer and help me, and i have trusted His answer.

the Quran is composed of surat and ayat revealed to Mohammad by a being no one else ever saw, by a voice only Mohammad could hear. Mohammad's revelations, not any signs or miracles, were taken as the sign of his being a chosen messenger of God. these things take faith, too.

and for Muslims, faith plays a big role, too. to make the leap from Islam to Christian faith does require a lot of logic, because Islam pays a great deal of attention to logic and reason. one has to be sure this is true. and the logical arguments and doubts and research i did lead me to the point where i was willing and to desiring to ask God directly.

Response: The miracles of Muhammad (pbuh) are many but I can tell you of them perhaps later if interested. What I'm trying to get at is your understanding and logic of who God is. Whether it's based on logic or not. You see as a muslim, things have to make sense to me. My belief does not rely on faith at all. It's based on truth. I can not credit anything to Allah but the truth. So by going on belief, there is a possibility of crediting falsehood to God because belief is not truth. So I don't have belief at all.

So what is your understanding of God? If I were to say that He is all loving and the most fair and wisest would you agree?

 

[Riverwolf]

so how exactly can the words of god be outdated, doesn't he know the future and to say something that will not become outdated?

that means they will be man edited to fit into the present day, then after 100 years it will be repeated again so it fits into the other present time.

that doesn't sound like the word of god, does it?

Languages evolve, and not everybody can speak ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek. We need SOME way to read them, right?

Remember, I don't believe the Bible to be the Word of God.

 

[Gharib]

Firstly, the English translation of the Bible =/= the literal word of God. English is not a holy language; this does not mean that the Word of God are outdated, but the translation is no comprehendible to as many people.


If the language changes so much so that there is a need for an up to date translation for people to understand, yes. If for example, many words and the sentence structure changes, then yes, it needs updating.

The translation of the Bible into more modern English using more up-to-date manuscripts does not make the the Bible any less the word of God; contrary to this, it means they are trying to make more reliable, by not being afraid to change and go back to earlier and more reliable sources, thus avoiding any possible errors, ommissions, additions, etc.

Languages evolve, and not everybody can speak ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek. We need SOME way to read them, right?

Remember, I don't believe the Bible to be the Word of God.

ah ok now i get what you meant, you are speaking about the language itself that is used in the scripture rather than what it says (it's words).

my bad :slap: sorry.

 

[Riverwolf]

ah ok now i get what you meant, you are speaking about the language itself that is used in the scripture rather than what it says (it's words).

my bad :slap: sorry.

It's okay. ^_^

 

[Breathe]

ah ok now i get what you meant, you are speaking about the language itself that is used in the scripture rather than what it says (it's words).

my bad :slap: sorry.

Haha, that's fine.

No need to slap :kissbette

 

[ayani]

So what is your understanding of God? If I were to say that He is all loving and the most fair and wisest would you agree?

i understand God first and foremost as "Father"- in the Biblical Gospels, this is the name Jesus teaches us to call God by.

God is Someone who loves us, takes care of us, and yet expects us to love Him back by obeying Him, being faithful to Him, sharing everything with Him, and walking with Him. to really love God, it's necessary to understand what God wants us to do, and to love Him enough to ask His input and help every step of the way. this is what Jesus shows us in His relationship with God, what He models to His disciples.

i would agree that God is fair, just, good, and wise. yet i would add that His nature is best expressed not via naming His attributes, but best understood by following Him day to day as Someone.

 

[Fatihah]

i understand God first and foremost as "Father"- in the Biblical Gospels, this is the name Jesus teaches us to call God by.

God is Someone who loves us, takes care of us, and yet expects us to love Him back by obeying Him, being faithful to Him, sharing everything with Him, and walking with Him. to really love God, it's necessary to understand what God wants us to do, and to love Him enough to ask His input and help every step of the way. this is what Jesus shows us in His relationship with God, what He models to His disciples.

i would agree that God is fair, just, good, and wise. yet i would add that His nature is best expressed not via naming His attributes, but best understood by following Him day to day as Someone.

Response: Thank you for your answer. I'm asking for your understanding of God because I want to better understand what God is not. We both agree that God is all loving, all fair and all wise. Now if this is what you truly believe, then if one were to bring you a scripture that says that (hypothetically speaking) God chops tortures little babies for fun, you would naturally disagree right? Even if scholars scholars said that the scripture is true?

 

[ayani]

Fatihah ~

i would say that God does punish sin, and Biblically this has meant the ruin of entire cities and towns, including children.

God doesn't enjoy punishing sin, and He gives civilizations, cultures, towns, and individuals time and opportunity to understand what they are doing, and stop. if they don't, God is just. and sometimes His justice manifests itself by destroying, and cutting off.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah ~

i would say that God does punish sin, and Biblically this has meant the ruin of entire cities and towns, including children.

God doesn't enjoy punishing sin, and He gives civilizations, cultures, towns, and individuals time and opportunity to understand what they are doing, and stop. if they don't, God is just. and sometimes His justice manifests itself by destroying, and cutting off.

Response: I agree. I would just like to understand the logic of your belief. If you believe that God is just and loving and scholars present to you a doctrine that says that God tortures babies for fun (which completely contridicts just and love) do you accept it or not? And why if they are scholars?

 

[ayani]

Fatihah ~

there's nothing in the Bible which states that God tortures babies for fun. sometimes God's justice and anger at sin and vileness is expressed through destruction and the ending of life.

the Bible can be read with the help of Biblical commentary from scholars, but it's not absolutely necessary. many Muslims use scholars' commentary to understand the meaning of the Quran, but many Christians don't rely as heavily on scholars to understand what the Bible is saying.

not all scholars of the Bible take a favorable or even Godly approach to the Bible. not all scholars of the Bible even read it as a divine text, and many Biblical critics / scholars do their best to disprove the divinity or inspiration of the Bible so i'm not neccesarily going to agree with any scholar's interpretation of what the Bible says.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah ~

there's nothing in the Bible which states that God tortures babies for fun. sometimes God's justice and anger at sin and vileness is expressed through destruction and the ending of life.

the Bible can be read with the help of Biblical commentary from scholars, but it's not absolutely necessary. many Muslims use scholars' commentary to understand the meaning of the Quran, but many Christians don't rely as heavily on scholars to understand what the Bible is saying.

not all scholars of the Bible take a favorable or even Godly approach to the Bible. not all scholars of the Bible even read it as a divine text, and many Biblical critics / scholars do their best to disprove the divinity or inspiration of the Bible so i'm not neccesarily going to agree with any scholar's interpretation of what the Bible says.

Response: I'm not saying that the Bible says this. It's a hypothetical question. Again, I would like to understand your reasoning behind your belief. So if you believe that God is just and loving and scholars present to you a doctrine that says that God tortures babies for fun (which completely contridicts just and love) do you accept it or not? If not, why if they are scholars? It's a hypothetical question.

 

[Muffled]

Well we know Jesus never said certain things like exclaiming to be God and the son of God because he being a messenger and prophet of Allah had no right to say those things. It would contradict who Allah is and he was not sent to do and attribute what christian's attribute to him.

Jesus said that he was God (I have a thread "Is Jesus God" under Religious Debates) and it was prophesied by Isaiah that He would be. You are simply taking the imaginings of your mind and replacing scripture with them.

 

[Breathe]

Response: I'm not saying that the Bible says this. It's a hypothetical question. Again, I would like to understand your reasoning behind your belief. So if you believe that God is just and loving and scholars present to you a doctrine that says that God tortures babies for fun (which completely contridicts just and love) do you accept it or not? If not, why if they are scholars? It's a hypothetical question.

Isn't this a straw man argument..?

 

[Muffled]

In Luke's account he does not subtly encourage it. They are asking him about the charges being brought against him being the son of God. And his reply is not yes I am. It is you say that I am. If he did not accept the title then this is a way of denying it and throwing the false charge back at them. In the following chapter when brought before Pilate he gave the same reply and Pilate replied Luke 23:4 I find no fault with this man.
Jesus not being found at fault means that the charges of him being the son of God brought against him were false because he denied them and did not accept the title as the Son of God.

This is not a denial. Jesus is replacing His own testimony whcih he knows won't be listened to, with the testimony of His accusers. However the same is true of the Pharisees that is true with Muslims, that no matter what the testimony of God they will find a way to not believe it. It also helps to have things in context: Luke 22:69 But from henceforth shall the Son of man be seated at the right hand of the power of God. 70 And they all said, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

Pilot was not interested in the charge that Jesus called Himself the Son of God. Largely because of this the Jewish leasers did not even bring this accusation to Pilot's attention: Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this man perverting our nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, and saying that he himself is Christ a king. Pilot didn't give any credit to the kingship of Jesus because He didn't believe one man could overpower the mighty Roman Empire. Now the Roman Empire is gone but the Kingdom that Jesus established is all over the world.

 

[Muffled]

I've only read the Torah twice, and not very well. (mostly just speed-reading)

I don't even know where Elisha and Elijah show up.

I and II Kings, I and II Chronicles.