Jesus in the Qur'an and the Bible

[Riverwolf]

River ~

well, Elisha and Elijah aren't in the Torah. that's ok. in the Bible, one can read about them primarily in 1 Kings and 2 Kings.

try the website biblegateway.com

Ah, okay. (btw, I have many Bibles. ^_^ I primarily use BibleGateway to quickly search for a passage or to quickly confirm an argument.)

 

[Breathe]

Response: Well it is quite natural to assume that if Jesus is to be God or a prophet, the act of giving his followers wine is not the best of judgement.

But drinking wine is not sinful in Judaism or (most sects of) Christianity.
(Some also believe it could just be "grape juice", I quite like that view since I find alcohol to be gross)

 

[Fatihah]

River ~

i'm thinking of the miracles He does is broad daylight. doubtless He appealed to His Father nightly for strength, counsel, grace, and God's will to be done.

yet in daylight miracles, one sees that He generally doesn't first call upon God for help. doubtless His power is from the finger of God, yet He forgives sins and heals the sick and raises the dead of His own innate power, given Him by the Father and freely available at any time.

it's a unique thing, one we don't see elsewhere in the Bible, where one generally sees prophets vocally call upon God for an answer or miracle, listening for God's instructions, and then carrying them out. but these miracles are usually not things they can do on their own of God's power.

Jesus' miracles are unique in that regard, though other past prophets work similar miracles. Biblically, prophets can work miracles, though literally by God's permission. and Biblically, Jesus is a prophet and also Messiah, and Son.

Response: Does this mean that you believe that Jesus had the ability to perform miracles by his own will? In other words, If I decided to walk right now, I would do so out of my own will and capability. My ability to walk is not a priviledge that I can only do by asking God for it and he grants me it everytime. Whereas in this following example, I can not fly out of my own will but everytime I call on God to do so He grants me the ability to do so. Do you see the difference? If so, in what example does Jesus fit according to you?

 

[ayani]

Fatihah ~

i do believe that Jesus worked His miracles of His own will, yet not independent of the will of God.

in John 10:30 Jesus says "I and the Father are One" and in John 5:19 Jesus states that whatever the Father does, He does. according to the Gospels, there is a communication and unified connectivity between the will of God and the will of Jesus.

i would argue that for Jesus, doing remarkable things was as natural as walking is for us.

 

[Fatihah]

But drinking wine is not sinful in Judaism or (most sects of) Christianity.
(Some also believe it could just be "grape juice", I quite like that view since I find alcohol to be gross)

Response: Fair enough. But the question I would ask is did Jesus actually do this. In the qur'an Jesus is not mentioned doing this. So which Jesus represents the true nature and character of Jesus? We read in the Tanakh that wine was forbidden as well. (Numbers 6.1-4)

 

[Riverwolf]

We read in the Tanakh that wine was forbidden as well. (Numbers 6.1-4)

That's only for holy men.

"Man or woman, should anyone act exceptionally to make a nazirite vow to keep himself apart for the Lord..." (Num 6:2)

 

[ayani]

Fatihah ~

wine was forbidden by Nazarines, who had taken a special vow of dedication to God. but generally, drinking wine was allowed.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah ~

i do believe that Jesus worked His miracles of His own will, yet not independent of the will of God.

in John 10:30 Jesus says "I and the Father are One" and in John 5:19 Jesus states that whatever the Father does, He does. according to the Gospels, there is a communication and unified connectivity between the will of God and the will of Jesus.

i would argue that for Jesus, doing remarkable things was as natural as walking is for us.

Response: But in Acts 2:22, when referring to the miracles it says "Ye men of Israel, here these words;Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know;"

The verse here clearly says that Jesus is a man approved of God and the miracles were done by God, not Jesus. It was not done by the will of Jesus. He had no control.

 

[Fatihah]

That's only for holy men.

"Man or woman, should anyone act exceptionally to make a nazirite vow to keep himself apart for the Lord..." (Num 6:2)

Response: But it does not say only Holy men.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah ~

wine was forbidden by Nazarines, who had taken a special vow of dedication to God. but generally, drinking wine was allowed.

Response: In the verse, the commandment came from God to Moses. It doesn't say that it came from the Nazarites.

 

[ayani]

Fatihah ~

it does say that God worked miracles by Jesus, and this is alluded to in the Gospels. yet to say that Jesus had no will in the matter is to deny in effect that Jesus is a Person, or a Someone.

clearly, Jesus is a Someone, with a will. a will which is linked to and one with the will of God. what God can do, Jesus does. and what God wills, the Son wills and puts into action. to say that Jesus had no control would be to negate the relationship between God and Christ shown throughout the Gospels. Jesus is shown to be Someone, interacting continually with another Someone, God.

Christians believe that Jesus was without sin, and that He did not do anything sinful. sin is defined as that which we do which goes against God's will. Jesus' sinless state means that unlike us, He perfectly obeyed His Father in all cases. so Jesus does have a will, yet it's a will uniquely tied to and inseparable from God's own will.

 

[ayani]

Response: In the verse, the commandment came from God to Moses. It doesn't say that it came from the Nazarites.

in the passage below, God speaks to Moses, telling him to tell all of the Hebrew people about what it entails to be a Nazarite, separated for God by a special vow.

Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. (Numbers 6:2-3)

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah ~

it does say that God worked miracles by Jesus, and this is alluded to in the Gospels. yet to say that Jesus had no will in the matter is to deny in effect that Jesus is a Person, or a Someone.

Response: It doesn't negate the fact that Jesus a will, it negates the fact that Jesus had the will to perform miracles. God performed the miracle as Acts 2.22 says but Jesus just performed what was necessary for him in the miracle for him to receive the ackowledgement of a prophet. For example, when I turn on a light switch, the light was not supplied by me to turn the light on. I just hit the switch. The power came from the electricity. The same for Jesus. When he puts his hand on the dead that's all he is doing. But what God does is heal the dead when he puts his hand on them. The power is from God. Jesus just performs this act so people can believe in him as a true messenger of God.

 

[Fatihah]

in the passage below, God speaks to Moses, telling him to tell all of the Hebrew people about what it entails to be a Nazarite, separated for God by a special vow.

Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. (Numbers 6:2-3)

Response: This is slightly different from my king James Version. In it it says:
"And the Lord spake unto Moses saying, 'Speak unto the children of Israel and say unto them,
When either man or woman shall separate to a vow of a Nazarite, to separate unto the Lord,
He shall separate from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drank any liquor of grapes, nor eat
moist grapes or dried".

The verse you quote says to separate to the Lord as a Nazarite while the king james version says to separate from the vow to a Nazarite and unto the Lord. That's a big difference. What version of the bible did you quote from?

 

[ayani]

But what God does is heal the dead when he puts his hand on them.

this is beautifully expressed, and i agree. i would extend this image further, but i would like to say one to two things first.

in Islam, Isa is only a messenger of Allah, a human through which Allah does miracles and shows signs of his greatness. Isa is certainly not divine, not God, and not God made man. to say so would be to commit the sin of shirk, and utter a blasphemy against Allah, who is one and unique in and beyond the universe.

so understandable, Islamic readings of the Gospels are going to focus on passages which agree or seem to agree with the Islamic understanding of Isa. for example, showing that Jesus was given His power and authority by God and hence not Himself willful.

yet that authority is still Jesus'. in Matthew 28:18 Jesus says "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me". the authority has been given, yet Jesus is still shown to be a unique and distinct Someone to whom it has been given, and who has the power to use it. a Someone unlike any of us, having the power and authority of God Almighty, One with and yet distinct from God Himself, and someone eternally alive and unique.

this begins to step into the Christian argument for Jesus' divinity, something a Muslim can not and will not accept.

 

[Muhammad Rasulullah]

Never mind, my mistake. After reading this wikipedia article: Messiah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, it looks as if I was mistaken.

HOWEVER, there are those who believe, apparently, that the coming of the Messiah would bring about the Messianic Age, which would be an age of peace. Obviously THAT didn't happen. ^_^

Well where does this belief come from? If it's a false belief and Jesus didn't fulfill that false prophecy then that shouldn't mean that Jesus is a false Messiah when their belief of the messiah is false.

 

[ayani]

Fatihah ~

the KJV says the same thing, but lays emphasis in a different way.

the KJV expresses it as "the man or woman shall separate to the vow of the Nazarene" while the NIV expresses it as "the man or woman makes a special vow to be a Nazarene". the KJV emphasizes the man or woman separating to the Nazarene vow and position, while the NIV emphasises the man or woman chosing to make a Nazarene vow.

in both cases, the man or woman has gone from being a typical Israelite, and has joined to the position of Nazarite through a vow to the Lord.

 

[Muhammad Rasulullah]

Why does it ill befit the majesty of "Allah" metaphorically?


I agree, it is a bit strange, but they're not hurting anyone with it.


So basically this translates to: "I don't mind the way you view it".

See the beliefs Christians come up with, but I don't believe it. I see it as only scratching the surface.

It should not be used metaphorically because many will misconstrue the meaning and take it as literal.

 

[Fatihah]

Fatihah ~

the KJV says the same thing, but lays emphasis in a different way.

the KJV expresses it as "the man or woman shall separate to the vow of the Nazarene" while the NIV expresses it as "the man or woman makes a special vow to be a Nazarene". the KJV emphasizes the man or woman separating to the Nazarene vow and position, while the NIV emphasises the man or woman chosing to make a Nazarene vow.

in both cases, the man or woman has gone from being a typical Israelite, and has joined to the position of Nazarite through a vow to the Lord.

Response: I can accept both the interpretaions but my only exception is when you said the commandment was by the Nazarites and not for them. Perhaps you didn't mean to say that or I've simply misread. The commandment is from God and in either version, the concept is in order to be closer to God you do not drink wine. Yet Jesus is turning water into wine. I would expect a person of God would not do such a thing. Don't you?

 

[ayani]

Fatihah ~

ok, sorry. in the Bible, this command is given by God through Moses, to the Israelite people, addressing any man or woman of Israel who might wish to become a Nazarite.

i see your point about wine. in Islam, wine is prohibited, and a devout Muslim will never drink, even socially.

yet for Jews, wine is allowed. many men and women of God throughout the Bible were not Nazarenes, yet were used by God and spoken through by God. Moses likely drank some wine, yet He stood in God's presence and talked with Him face to face. the vow to refrain from wine as a Nazarene is optional, and can seen to be both literal and symbolic of discipline in its exclusion not only of wine, but of grapes and grape skins (which would certainly not cause intoxication). in addition, from the example of Moses and others it is shown that one's having or not having an intimate and close walk with God is not condional on the basis of whether or not one drinks wine.

God does allow His people to drink in the Bible. and Jesus uses wine to perform His first miracle, as you've mentioned. it can be said simply that in Judeo-Christianity, wine per se is not forbidden or off limits in every and any situation.

notable also is the fact that the wine of Jesus' time was heavily diluted with water, and very mild compared to what people drink today. so a Christian is allowed wine, and Jesus likely drank at least some wine while eating at the houses of disciples and priests.