Jesus is all that really matters

[sojourner]

It`s just a fantasy.

...it’s not the real thing...
Sometimes a fantasy is all you need.

 

[sojourner]

I saw him perform many miracles that you weren't there to witness. Now, I understand, you asked for scripture, and it's never stated in scripture that the messiah shall perform miracles as even false prophets can do that, but I'm saying it anyway. I saw Hififish turn water into whisky and he walked on hot flowing lava.

I thought it was magma...

 

[sojourner]

Most Christians or those just 'professing to be Christians' as most of Christendom professes.
Please remember Jesus said MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false at Matthew 7:21-23.

Sure many peoples throughout the centuries were ignorant of the offence.
1) Before Jesus, God only dealt with only one nation and that nation was only the nation of 'ancient' Israel.
2) The majority of mankind has lived and died without knowing about the Bible or Jesus - John 3:13.
3) Resurrection is offered 'except' for those committing the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32.
4) I find, according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 now the 'times of ignorance' is past because God is calling all of us to ' repent ' if we do Not wish to 'perish ' (be destroyed) as per 2 Peter 3:9.

Those who sinned through No fault of their own will be resurrected (we don't carry Adam's guilt), or as Acts of the Apostles 24:15 says that both the 'righteous and unrighteous' will have a resurrection.
Those who practice sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth there remains No more hope for them according to Hebrews 10:26. So, the BIG difference is between doing wrong on purpose, willfully, premeditated, or just by accident.
Only the wicked will be destroyed forever (perish) as per Psalms 92:7.

Someone is in dire need of a theology course...

 

[sojourner]

I don't see a Scripture saying Armageddon begins in the Middle East.
I do see the verses at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 that when ' they ' (powers that be) will be saying, "Peace and Security" that saying will be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14.
Since judgement starts with the ' house (religious house) of God ' as per 1 Peter 4:17, then the coming great tribulation begins when the ' powers that be ' suddenly and surprisingly turn on religion.

I find too we are nearing a soon coming ' time of separation' to take place on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
Jesus, as judge, will favor the humble figurative ' sheep ' whereas the haughty ' goats ' will be destroyed forever.
ALL the wicked will be 'destroyed forever' as per Psalms 92:7.
The executional words from Jesus' mouth will rid the Earth of the wicked as per Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16.

Armageddon is in Israel. You look it up on Google Earth to see where Israel is.

 

[sojourner]

But, of course the question remains... If Jesus' sacrifice redeems all sin then what sin could you possibly do that's greater than the power of Jesus' sacrifice? Unless of course, he's not as powerful as they say. If Jesus' sacrifice was eternal then placing conditions such as worrying about your own sins hardly sells the fact that one believes that. If Jesus died for only sins up to the point of his death, then you limit him in power massively, imho.

The Bible contradicts itself in many ways, and that basically leaves all of these concepts up for interpretation. I do find it amusing that you've taken the time to cherry pick for the bits that suit you. From my perspective, Jehovah wants slaves and just because he's willing to murder his own son to get them doesn't impress me but makes me even like him less.

Reactionism is no substitute for enlightenment.

 

[sojourner]

I might not have, but the Scriptures have. And the Scriptures say the messiah will reunite the ten tribes, bring offers to the Temple, and bring peace to the Jews.

Literally none of this has happened.

I don’t see any clan wars going on amongst Jews; the Temple has been redefined as something other than a building where God lives; the Jews are as peaceful as any other nation, except for the problems they cause for themselves with the Palestinians.

 

[blü 2]

The Bible also calls Jesus God. So I guess they do.

You mean Thomas? You think one word attributed to Thomas outweighs not fewer than sixteen sentences attributed to Jesus in direct speech? Thomas knows more about Jesus than Jesus does? Really?

A verse would help here.
This is interesting stuff, I would rather deal with this subject in context specific.

Here's one. It's in my mind there are others as well.

1 Corinthian 8
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father [εἷς θεὸς ὁ πατήρ], from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ [καὶ εἷς κύριος Ἰησοῦς Χριστός], through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Right. The fact is, isn't in Spirit form, the 'God'? I'm not disagreeing there. Now, the human Jesus, how much Deity, and how much human....the human form Jesus, says He is one with Father, yet in Heaven, Jesus isn't the same being. I believe this idea is the key to understanding why we have these contradicting verses.

There are two versions of the nature of Jesus in the NT. The earliest Jesus is mentioned in history as we presently have it is with Paul, who works with a gnostic-style cosmos of an utterly immaterial, utterly pure, Supreme Being, God, who's certainly too pure to mess with the material world. In gnosticism his agent is the demiurge, a lower spirit who created the universe but is subordinate to God. The author of John lines up with that view too. Thus Jesus is a version of the demiurge, who is enabled to come to earth by being born of a virgin inseminated by a spirit. All of this is from Greek philosophy and religion.

On the other hand, the earliest gospel is Mark, and in Mark Jesus is just an ordinary human until he's baptized by JtB, at which point the heavens open and God declares that Jesus is his son, in terms from Psalm 2:7, where Yahweh adopts King David as his son (a view also expressed in Acts 13.33). There are other references to David's adoption in this fashion in 2 Samuel 7:14 and Psalm 89. And that's straight Jewish tradition ─ Yahweh isn't Zeus, and he don't play with the ladies (indeed it appears from archaeology that he used to have a consort, Asherah, but it must have ended badly).

The problem is that Jesus is called a God, in the text.

Please quote me the texts you refer to.

Also, I don't believe that the word title God, has to be regulated to just Yahweh, or something. That isn't how the word God is used, outside of certain religious belief.

I have no idea what a real god could be. In fact I presently have a thread asking for a useful definition of a real god, such that if we found a candidate, we could tell whether it was a god or not, but so far no luck. On the other hand imaginary gods can be whatever anyone wants them to be, so really there are no rules there.

Anyway, that aside, I don't worship Jesus, and the NT is wisdom text, for me.

My favorite piece of bible wisdom is Ecclesiastes 3:18-22. I can't fault it.

 

[sojourner]

If you read the biblical references I listed, you'll see that their authors have attributed words to Jesus which are a repeated bald denial that Jesus is God. Such as:

Luke 18:19 “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

John 8:42 “I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.”

John 10:29 “My Father [...] is greater than all”.

John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”

John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​

and the others I mentioned, and doubtless more. Paul said, the Father is God and the Son is Lord ─ the powerful agent.

And going the other way, the words 'I am God' are nowhere attributed to Jesus.

It's no concern of mine if people want to think Jesus is god, or part of a triune god. It's when they say the bible agrees with either of those statements that I think it's fair to draw the line.
Indeed, as 1Timothy 2:5 puts it, For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (The idea that a mediator's required is essentially gnostic, as you'll recognize. I'm not aware of any such idea in the Jewish religion.)
It's not sufficient to take his word for it, you say?

Anyone can read s*** and come up with an interpretation that suits their needs...

 

[sojourner]

The words are there. Nothing more is required than to read them

Well, there’s context, exegesis, interpretation, etc.

Regardless of what the bible says?

The Bible isn’t the be-all-end-all.

 

[Rival]

I don’t see any clan wars going on amongst Jews; the Temple has been redefined as something other than a building where God lives; the Jews are as peaceful as any other nation, except for the problems they cause for themselves with the Palestinians.

No, the Temple has not been redefined. It doesn't mean clan wars; it means oppression and violence by other peoples - and that is still going on. During the messianic age, the Jews will live in Israel in peace and be able to study and go about their lives without threat. The other ten tribes will be there too. They will bring offerings to the Temple and the Messiah will be the King.

 

[sojourner]

Lord is the same God as God. Not a different God. Not a man, non deific.

The verses you presented if read literally, contradict Jesus's own statements about His religion. If Jesus were a man, then it would contradict John 1:18, as Jesus says He knows the Father.

So it can't be both.
Someone is lying, the text authors are practicing a different religion, or, the interpretation is wrong..

It's one of those.

Choose.

This conversation is begging for theological context...

 

[sojourner]

Jesus also says he worships the Father. Do Gods worship themselves?

What does Paul mean when he says the Father is God and Jesus is Lord? Why that usage, which clearly distinguishes God from Jesus?

And why, in particular, and again, does Jesus never say, I am God?
So what? He says he was in heaven before he arrived on earth, and according to Luke and Matthew he had to do that by being born here, so it seems fair to imply that the stories attribute some non-human status to him in heaven, an überangel perhaps.
As I said, I don't see why it can't be both, if he had to be born to get here.

But if you're right then EITHER the attribution to Jesus in direct speech of at least sixteen statements denying that he's God or irreconcilable with any claim that he's God, is THE BIG LIE or else all the arguments that he IS god, although he constantly denies it, is the lie.

Why are you so desperate to turn Jesus into a God anyway? Why this need to call Jesus a sixteen-fold liar when he says he isn't God? You already have a perfectly serviceable god in Yahweh. You know the Trinity doctrine is incoherent. What's the problem?

Arguing theology without theology is like doing math without mathematics.

 

[jonathan180iq]

If you guys ever want to know why your rhetoric doesn't reach some people, let me show you something.

He's all our sufficiency,
All our Grace
All our Power
All our Strength
All our Righteousness
All our Peace
All our Love
All our Light

No wonder we can win this fight called life. Excuse me, I'm very euphoric because the love of God. If any Christians find it hard to pray then it may be a demon putting a mental block in your mind to keep you from blessing that day. Rebuke it in Jesus name and ask God to feel you with His love for others. Demons may also try to make difficult rules to follow when you pray; to discourage you. Just start praying. No difficult rules for yourself. No discouragement. No feelings of inadequacy because Jesus is all our sufficiency.

"...Excuse me, I'm very euphoric because the invisible imaginary sky man loves me. If anyone finds it hard to talk to themselves, then it may be a magic mind monster putting a trap around your thoughts to keep you from imbuing that day with mind power. Rebuke it in the name of the son of the invisible imaginary sky man (who is actually also the invisible imaginary sky man) and ask him to fill you with his love for others. Magic mind monsters may also try to make difficult rules to follow when you talk to yourself ; to discourage you. In that case, just talk to yourself some more... No discouragement. No feelings of inadequacy. Because the son of the invisible imaginary sky man (who is actually also the invisible imaginary sky man) is all our sufficiency."

I understand that it all seems normal to you because you've accepted it and were probably raised in it. But from the outside, it's crazy.

 

[blü 2]

Anyone can read s*** and come up with an interpretation that suits their needs...

So, you say, words don't have meaning, they really mean whatever the reader / hearer wants?

Wow, if that's right, using a timetable must be a joy to you, all those buses and trains and planes always leaving exactly when you want!

 

[blü 2]

The Bible isn’t the be-all-end-all.

It's pretty close to the be-all-and-end-all if the question is, What does the text of the bible say?

 

[blü 2]

Arguing theology without theology is like doing math without mathematics.

Then I turn to you for help.

What is a real god? That is, what objective test will tell us whether any real candidate, (that is, any candidate with objective existence, any candidate not imaginary) is a god or not?

Surely that's the starting point, and the sine qua non, of theology? And I confess, not only don't I know the answer, but I've never met anyone who does.

 

[sojourner]

No, the Temple has not been redefined

Well, it certainly doesn’t exist as a brick-and-mortar establishment, so something has been redefined, at least by default.

It doesn't mean clan wars; it means oppression and violence by other peoples - and that is still going on

It’s going on on everywhere for everyone. It’s up to us to stop that madness.

During the messianic age, the Jews will live in Israel in peace and be able to study and go about their lives without threat.

I think that’s Pollyannaish, even coming from the Bible.

The other ten tribes will be there too. They will bring offerings to the Temple and the Messiah will be the King

Sounds like Hollywood magic to me...

 

[sojourner]

It's pretty close to the be-all-and-end-all if the question is, What does the text of the bible say?

And how do you determine what the text says?

 

[Rival]

Well, it certainly doesn’t exist as a brick-and-mortar establishment, so something has been redefined, at least by default.

It will do. It's called the Third Temple and it's going to be built a l'avenir.

It’s going on on everywhere for everyone. It’s up to us to stop that madness.

We can certainly help.

I think that’s Pollyannaish, even coming from the Bible.

Then you don't believe in the prophets.

Sounds like Hollywood magic to me...

G-d is pretty cool, eh?

 

[sojourner]

Then I turn to you for help.

What is a real god? That is, what objective test will tell us whether any real candidate, (that is, any candidate with objective existence, any candidate not imaginary) is a god or not?

Surely that's the starting point, and the sine qua non, of theology? And I confess, not only don't I know the answer, but I've never met anyone who does.

Well, first off, theology isn’t about objective tests. Second, theology is about propositions, not certainties. Theology isn’t science. And it can’t be twisted to conform to the parameters of the scientific method.