Jesus is God?

[Jeremy Mason]

I understand that there are disagreements on who the messiah is, but I don't believe the scriptures, hebrew or christian, require us to worship the messiah. As I see it we are to worship God. While the messiah is an important individual and may be God in human form we are still supposed to be worshipping God, not his human form.

I would love to hear these prophecies, but could you post them in a new thread so as not to clutter this one?

Read Answereing Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 1-3 by Michael l. Brown Baker Books

 

[Katzpur]

Yeshua was not God or a god. The bible states very clear that YHWH is the only god and there was and is no other. Yeshua said that his god was greater than him (the servant) and his god was greater than ALL. He also said his god was the one true god and he was the messiah whom his god has sent. This is what he taught, this is what John the babptist taught and this is what his followers believed. Everything else is speculation.

When the Apostle Thomas first recognized Jesus after the Resurrection, he said, "My Lord and my God!" There are a couple of ways of interpreting this statement. I suppose you could say that he was addressing God (the Father), but I don't think he would have used the word "Lord" in that context. You could also say that he was addressing Jesus himself. This is what I believe he was doing. If I'm right, it's interesting that Jesus didn't correct him and say, "I'm not God, Thomas." Why not? Was it because (1) He didn't hear him correctly, (2) He heard him but didn't think it was an issue worth correcting him on, (3) He heard him but liked the idea that Thomas saw Him as God, or (4) Thomas's statement was correct.

For anyone who may not have read my previous posts in this thread, I don't believe that Jesus Christ is simply a different manifestation of the Father. I also don't believe He was equal in "rank" (for lack of a better word) to His Father. I do believe that as the Son of God, He can be correctly referred to as "God" himself, as long as we recognize that He is not the same person as His Father and is subordinate to His Father.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

When the Apostle Thomas first recognized Jesus after the Resurrection, he said, "My Lord and my God!" There are a couple of ways of interpreting this statement. I suppose you could say that he was addressing God (the Father), but I don't think he would have used the word "Lord" in that context. You could also say that he was addressing Jesus himself. This is what I believe he was doing. If I'm right, it's interesting that Jesus didn't correct him and say, "I'm not God, Thomas." Why not? Was it because (1) He didn't hear him correctly, (2) He heard him but didn't think it was an issue worth correcting him on, (3) He heard him but liked the idea that Thomas saw Him as God, or (4) Thomas's statement was correct.

For anyone who may not have read my previous posts in this thread, I don't believe that Jesus Christ is simply a different manifestation of the Father. I also don't believe He was equal in "rank" (for lack of a better word) to His Father. I do believe that as the Son of God, He can be correctly referred to as "God" himself, as long as we recognize that He is not the same person as His Father and is subordinate to His Father.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I've often heard people say..."well Jesus didn't correct him"....but that goes for everything Yeshua said. There are places where people call him by a title but he doesn't correct them. When he asked..."Who do you say I am"....and the answer given was.."You are the son of the living god"....he felt no need to say to him..."No....I am the living god"......He simply revealed that the description was accurate and it was God that had revealed this to the desciple. But I do see what you mean though.....

 

[CDB]

'God has revealed Himself to us in three distinct personalities, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. One God in the essence and attributes associated with deity, but revealed to us in these three distinct personalities.'

If you have three personalities, you have three gods. There is no way around this.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Or perhaps God is schizophrenic?

 

[deelo505]

CHRIST IS A GOD. NOT AS GREAT AS JEHOVAH (THE FATHER), BUT GOD NONETHELESS.

you can only put jesus as not a god or jehovah god because he is not just "a" god because there is only one.Jesus says to the jews that he and the father are one.

 

[deelo505]

'God has revealed Himself to us in three distinct personalities, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. One God in the essence and attributes associated with deity, but revealed to us in these three distinct personalities.'

If you have three personalities, you have three gods. There is no way around this.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Or perhaps God is schizophrenic?

three "personalities" doesnt mean three Gods.you are comprised of a soul spirit and body.3 completely different things but one person.Its the same concept.but no one can fully understand and or explain the trinity just like many other things.

 

[deelo505]

"Please, elaborate on this (preferably in lower case). Why is Christ less than God? Why is he a god? Are you suggesting that there are multiple gods?"

There is only one God.
He is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
He is a singular entity with a singular personality.

Trinitarians try to make God three persons in one God - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
This is impossible, since a son cannot be his own father and God has no father, therefore the son cannot be The Father.

In a way however, you can say Jesus IS God.
His Father is God, and since he has no blood/substance in him other than God's (Mary was nothing more than an incubator for the flesh body that became Jesus the man) therefore he is God ENTIRELY. The Bible says that Jesus' Father is the Holy Ghost (therefore if God is Jesus' Father, then God IS the Holy Spirit/Ghost, but NOT the second person of the Godhead, otherwise God is a schizo!)

His LIFE however is his own (John 5:26 explicitly states this), and is very much separate to his Father's.

He is the complete and full expression of God - that's why Jesus said 'if you see me you've seen the Father'.

So he is equal to God, but is not God, since (once more the the dumb ones) you can't be your own Father and there is only ONE God!

to think it impossible that God couldnt become human or be in human form is denying his greatness and power.no one knows anything for sure of course.but thats my thoughts, i believe they are one.

 

[Katzpur]

you can only put jesus as not a god or jehovah god because he is not just "a" god because there is only one.Jesus says to the jews that he and the father are one.

Yeah, but does He say how they are one? Does He say they are one "essence"? No. Does He say they are one "substance"? No. What does He actually say? He says they are "one" and then asks His Father that we may be "one" in the same way in which the two of them are "one." Do you think He was praying that we'd all be absorbed into the essence of the Trinity?

 

[Katzpur]

three "personalities" doesnt mean three Gods.

Well then it must mean one God with multiple personalities.

you are comprised of a soul spirit and body.

Explain, please, the difference between your soul and your spirit.

3 completely different things but one person.Its the same concept.but no one can fully understand and or explain the trinity just like many other things.

It's not the same concept at all. To begin with, neither my spirit nor my body are fully me. It's only when they come together that they are fully me. Are you saying that Jesus is not fully God -- on His own?

 

[Katzpur]

That's an interesting way to look at it. I've often heard people say..."well Jesus didn't correct him"....but that goes for everything Yeshua said. There are places where people call him by a title but he doesn't correct them. When he asked..."Who do you say I am"....and the answer given was.."You are the son of the living god"....he felt no need to say to him..."No....I am the living god"......He simply revealed that the description was accurate and it was God that had revealed this to the desciple. But I do see what you mean though.....

I don't think Christ felt the need to correct Peter when Peter said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God" because that's who He was -- the Son of the Living God.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

to think it impossible that God couldnt become human or be in human form is denying his greatness and power.no one knows anything for sure of course.but thats my thoughts, i believe they are one.

Can God Lie..?

If you say yes....does youre bible confirm it?

just curious....I've often wondered......

As I have observed in the four gospels Yeshua reveals that they are one in (purpose) but never one in the same.....

 

[lockyfan]

How else would Jesus be a son if not made by God? you still have to be made by your parents to become their child! Is this not correct?

Also Jesus is a decendant from Adam for the simple fact of this! His mother was the wife of a decendant of David the kind from who Jesus was to take over from and have control of God's Kingdom, no other would ever have that!

Micah 5:2
And you, O Beth´le·hem Eph´ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite
Early time? time indefinate? is this not what is called those from before the earth is made? from before Adam and Eve were created?

John 3:13
Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.
Jesus is also called the son of Man

John 6:37-38
Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me
Jesus has come from heaven! and has been SENT from heaven by a higher source!

John 6:62
What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?
Jesus is ascending to where he had been before!

John 17:1Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you,
Hold a tick, whoa what was that? He looked to the heaven and said glorify your SON? wait, if he was God, wouldn't Jesus be saying this to himself? hey me glorify me! no he didn't he looked upward towards heaven and said Glorify your son that your son glorify you

The last one for this time is
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

Jehovah God is the head of Christ, is ABOVE Christ, he is not the SAME as Christ, he is HIGHER, yet Christ is the HEAD of humans, but God is the HIGHEST

 

[Troublemane]

When the Apostle Thomas first recognized Jesus after the Resurrection, he said, "My Lord and my God!" There are a couple of ways of interpreting this statement....

Another way of interpreting it is he was simply shouting in surprise, "Holy ****!!! Good Lord!!!" I know I would if I saw one of my best friends I thought dead, standing there in front of me!:angel2:

 

[Katzpur]

Another way of interpreting it is he was simply shouting in surprise, "Holy ****!!! Good Lord!!!" I know I would if I saw one of my best friends I thought dead, standing there in front of me!:angel2:

That's basically what I meant when I said he could have been addressing God the Father. But that's not what it appears to be in the context in which it was said.

John 20:27-29 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

It appears that Thomas is actually addressing Christ as his Lord and God and that Jesus responds to that address. To me, that says that He acknowledged it as a accurate statement of who He was.

 

[uss_bigd]

That's basically what I meant when I said he could have been addressing God the Father. But that's not what it appears to be in the context in which it was said.

John 20:27-29 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

It appears that Thomas is actually addressing Christ as his Lord and God and that Jesus responds to that address. To me, that says that He acknowledged it as a accurate statement of who He was.

if i may reinforce katspur's post. when jesus said

" Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

he is acknowledging Thomas' statement of FAITH. statement of faith that Jesus was God.

 

[uss_bigd]

Another way of interpreting it is he was simply shouting in surprise, "Holy ****!!! Good Lord!!!" I know I would if I saw one of my best friends I thought dead, standing there in front of me!:angel2:

nope. if you read the verses before that particular verse, Thomas was looking for proof(the not until i saw the holes in his hands thing). and when he so christ he was expecting to see his hands and touch it, why would he be surprised?

and look at jesus statement ' blessed are you that you had faith when you saw me...

acknowldgement that Jesus was/is/will be God!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Sure, Thomas's statement was one of surprise......Other than the KJV there are plenty of bibles where the scholars translated the verse with an exclaimation mark at the end. But since this type of marking did not exist in the greek...how do we know how the verse is supposed to be rendered. We can not tell reading the verse the real expression Thomas displayed. But as I've said before....to know if Yeshua was God just observe his prayer to his god in John chapter 17.....where he says....

YOU are the one true god and I am the messiah whom YOU have sent.

Yeshua, in his prayer to his god, acknowledges that he himself is not God and it was his god that sent him. In order to be sent there must be a sender.

 

[Popeyesays]

nope. if you read the verses before that particular verse, Thomas was looking for proof(the not until i saw the holes in his hands thing). and when he so christ he was expecting to see his hands and touch it, why would he be surprised?

and look at jesus statement ' blessed are you that you had faith when you saw me...

acknowldgement that Jesus was/is/will be God!

Nope.

The reason for telling the story is in the last two verses of the chapter (in red for clarity)

From the Darby translation:
"

26And eight days after, his disciples were again within, and Thomas with them. Jesus comes, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace [be] to you.
27Then he says to Thomas, Bring thy finger here and see my hands; and bring thy hand and put it into my side; and be not unbelieving, but believing.
28Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.
29Jesus says to him, Because thou hast seen me thou hast believed: blessed they who have not seen and have believed.
30Many other signs therefore also Jesus did before his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name.

Even the author of the Gospel says Jesus is not God.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Jesus said that he existed before Abraham. what was he if he could do that?

 

[uss_bigd]

Nope.

The reason for telling the story is in the last two verses of the chapter (in red for clarity)

From the Darby translation:
"

26And eight days after, his disciples were again within, and Thomas with them. Jesus comes, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace [be] to you.
27Then he says to Thomas, Bring thy finger here and see my hands; and bring thy hand and put it into my side; and be not unbelieving, but believing.
28Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.
29Jesus says to him, Because thou hast seen me thou hast believed: blessed they who have not seen and have believed.
30Many other signs therefore also Jesus did before his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31but these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name.

Even the author of the Gospel says Jesus is not God.

Regards,
Scott

how does verse 31 imply that Christ is not God?