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Jesus is God.

A

anonymous9887

bible reader
Ben Avraham said:
Experience as a Jewish man myself. That Jesus is dead, a Christian can fight that only by claiming faith. And for the second statement, I met once a Jew claiming he was the Mashiach in Jerualem. He was soon diagnosed to be crazy. Imagine one claiming to be God!
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Jesus never claimed to be god. Scripturally Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, and out of all people that have claimed to be the Messiah, Jesus has had the most impact on history.

Well we know that the Messiah has to be from the offspring of Abraham and David, how is that possible with no evidence of lineage now?
 
B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Paul Chavez said:
Jesus never claimed to be god. Scripturally Jesus fulfilled the prophecies, and out of all people that have claimed to be the Messiah, Jesus has had the most impact on history.

Well we know that the Messiah has to be from the offspring of Abraham and David, how is that possible with no evidence of lineage now?
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I know Jesus never claimed to be God as he was a loyal Jew, but the writers of the NT claimed it for him, especially when they attributed to him to have said that, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:44) Would you provide me with at least one prophecy that Jesus fulfilled as the Messiah? And, BTW, what did Jesus do to justify him as the Messiah? Who made Jesus to be of the offspring of David? If you don't know, read II Timothy 2:8. Paul did it. Now, for Jesus to be from the offspring of David, he had to come from the Tribe of Judah. But then again, he had to be a biological son of Joseph who was the one from the Tribe of Judah. Since the NT has exonerated him from being of the lineage of Joseph, he became a Jew because of his Jewish mother but one without a Tribe in Israel. Dangerous connotation right there!
 
jaybird

jaybird

Member
here is one of the biggest issues i have with making Jesus the Most High. in Judaism and Christianity there have been falling aways from the Father, Jesus came to bring us Back to the Father, to show us how to have the relationship with the Father that He has. the example i see of Jesus is, follow Me, I am one of you, if I can do it you can do it. when i look at Jesus i see an example i can follow. when they elevate Jesus to Most High, i see something i can never follow, a mountain to big to climb.
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
Ben Avraham said:
I know Jesus never claimed to be God as he was a loyal Jew, but the writers of the NT claimed it for him, especially when they attributed to him to have said that, "Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:44) Would you provide me with at least one prophecy that Jesus fulfilled as the Messiah? And, BTW, what did Jesus do to justify him as the Messiah? Who made Jesus to be of the offspring of David? If you don't know, read II Timothy 2:8. Paul did it. Now, for Jesus to be from the offspring of David, he had to come from the Tribe of Judah. But then again, he had to be a biological son of Joseph who was the one from the Tribe of Judah. Since the NT has exonerated him from being of the lineage of Joseph, he became a Jew because of his Jewish mother but one without a Tribe in Israel. Dangerous connotation right there!
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If we Just look at the basic grammar of John 8:58 , Jesus is just trying to say he existed before Abraham. His apostles did no such thing as make him god.

There are over 100 messianic prophecies. Take your pick and look at the prophecies
Zechariah 12:10
Malachi 3:1-5
Isaiah 53
Take your pick.

Your still avoiding one huge problem as a Jew. How will you verify the Messiah if you have no way of knowing from what line he is coming from? What tribe are you from? How can Jews even prove this?

As far as I know god kept track of the lineage of the Messiah all the way to Jesus, why did he stop recording the genealogy if Jesus was not the Messiah?
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
jaybird said:
here is one of the biggest issues i have with making Jesus the Most High. in Judaism and Christianity there have been falling aways from the Father, Jesus came to bring us Back to the Father, to show us how to have the relationship with the Father that He has. the example i see of Jesus is, follow Me, I am one of you, if I can do it you can do it. when i look at Jesus i see an example i can follow. when they elevate Jesus to Most High, i see something i can never follow, a mountain to big to climb.
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Everything you said is right on, but we scripturally cannot live life without sin, as Jesus did as a perfect man. We can though imitate the things he did, but we have sin dwelling in us.
 
jaybird

jaybird

Member
Paul Chavez said:
Everything you said is right on, but we scripturally cannot live life without sin, as Jesus did as a perfect man. We can though imitate the things he did, but we have sin dwelling in us.
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i agree we cant be perfect but Jesus gives us an example that it could be possible to do what He did. everyone remembers Jesus walking on water, but i remember peter walking on water. he didnt make it all the way but he did walk on the water, he actually did it.
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
sovietchild said:
Can Jesus condone you? If not how can he forgive you? The Creator The Pure One is The Forgiver.
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Well I say god (the father alone) is sovereign, and if he wants to give anyone authority to forgive or to be his king, god can do that. Otherwise I would ask for a reference that says God can't do what he wants with his things.
 
sovietchild

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
Paul Chavez said:
Well I say god (the father alone) is sovereign, and if he wants to give anyone authority to forgive or to be his king, god can do that. Otherwise I would ask for a reference that says God can't do what he wants with his things.
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Okay but can Jesus condone you?
 
sovietchild

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
Paul Chavez said:
I have never really thought of that question, but I would say all authority has been handed to Jesus, so any judgments or discipline are carried out by Jesus.
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Jesus can't harm you. Jesus can't help you. Jesus can't see you. Jesus can't hear you.

The Pure One is The Taker of Life. The Pure One is The Helper. The Pure One is The Watchful One. The Pure One is The Hearer of All.
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
sovietchild said:
The Creator guides whom He wills and misguides whom He wills.

Can Jesus do that?
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Like I said Jesus carries out the father's will.
The creator helps, or allows you to be misguided, he doesn't deceive. He allows you to pick your path, if you pick anything other than YHWH it will not go well, because you made a choice, he doesn't mess with free will.
 
sovietchild

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
Paul Chavez said:
Like I said Jesus carries out the father's will.
The creator helps, or allows you to be misguided, he doesn't deceive. He allows you to pick your path, if you pick anything other than YHWH it will not go well, because you made a choice, he doesn't mess with free will.
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If Jesus can't guide you or misguide you, then he is not the pure one. The Pure One Is The Guide.

If The Creator touches you with harm, none can lift it but He. If He intends good for you, then none can repel.
 
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Sonofason

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Gospel writer John wrote at Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B - that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
Since God is the un-created Creator and had No beginning - Psalms 90:2 - then only God was ' before ' the beginning.
Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Jesus was clear about who he was by his answer at John 10:36 that he is the Son of God.
Jesus taught that his Father is greater than all - John 10:29
and that his Father is greater than Jesus - John 14:28
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I assume that when we refer to "the beginning" we are speaking of the beginning of creation, which many people often seem to associate with the occurrences resulting from the spoken Word of God. But I believe this is not quite right. What happened to the instant right before God spoke, and why do we neglect to include that instance as being inclusive to the beginning? I believe that in the beginning God. God, an eternal and perfect mind existed, and was engaged in contemplation and reflection. I believe it was during this time, or lack thereof, wherein God conceived us and all of creation, wherein God formed and devised His creation plan. Before He put the plan into action, "the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." And then "... the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." And then God spoke. I think it is important to understand that prior to the spoken word of God, that the Word of God was indeed with God. You might say that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God, but I do not believe that is telling the entire story. Jesus was also there and present with God before the beginning of Creation. In the beginning, God spoke.
In other words, during the beginning, God spoke.

When God spoke He said "let there be light". It was in this very moment, the moment God spoke, that we see the first glimpse of God's Son. That does not mean that God's Son, The Word of God was not present with God before God spoke.

You see, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life."
 
A

anonymous9887

bible reader
sovietchild said:
If Jesus can't guide you or misguide you, then he is not the pure one. The Pure One Is The Guide.

If The Creator touches you with harm, none can lift it but He. If He intends good for you, then none can repel.
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How ever you want to word it, but the logos carries out the father's will.
 
B

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Paul Chavez said:
If we Just look at the basic grammar of John 8:58 , Jesus is just trying to say he existed before Abraham. His apostles did no such thing as make him god.

There are over 100 messianic prophecies. Take your pick and look at the prophecies
Zechariah 12:10
Malachi 3:1-5
Isaiah 53
Take your pick.

Your still avoiding one huge problem as a Jew. How will you verify the Messiah if you have no way of knowing from what line he is coming from? What tribe are you from? How can Jews even prove this?

As far as I know god kept track of the lineage of the Messiah all the way to Jesus, why did he stop recording the genealogy if Jesus was not the Messiah?
Click to expand...

I am sure that Jesus' apostles did no such a thing as to make of him a god; and this is an evidence that none of them wrote a single page of the NT. The whole NT was written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul's. Now, if you read Mat. 1:18, no Jew could have ever written that Jesus could be born of God with an earthly woman. Evidence of Hellenism.

I am well aware of all those messianic prophecies you have mentioned above as a claim to Jesus. They are all about Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus. 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son" said the Lord. "Let My Son go that he may serve Me."

I believe in the collective concept of the Messiah. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord, aka Israel the Son of God. (Exodus 4:22,23) Now, regarding your question on how can I prove that Jesus was not the Messiah! Two reasons: First, the Messiah cannot be an individual as the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) The second reason is that Jesus was not from the Tribal of Judah which I blame the NT for.

God had nothing to do with the genealogical record of Jesus in the NT but the Hellenists who wrote Matthew and Luke. That's why they had to stop with Mary and not with Joseph who was the one from the Tribe of Judah, not Mary. However, even if Mary was from the Tribe of Judah, it would not help for Jesus to be the Messiah because Tribal genealogy would go down only through the father.
 
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