Jesus is God.

[anonymous9887]

I am sure that Jesus' apostles did no such a thing as to make of him a god; and this is an evidence that none of them wrote a single page of the NT. The whole NT was written by Hellenists former disciples of Paul's. Now, if you read Mat. 1:18, no Jew could have ever written that Jesus could be born of God with an earthly woman. Evidence of Hellenism.

I am well aware of all those messianic prophecies you have mentioned above as a claim to Jesus. They are all about Israel, the Son of God if you read Exodus. 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son" said the Lord. "Let My Son go that he may serve Me."

I believe in the collective concept of the Messiah. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord, aka Israel the Son of God. (Exodus 4:22,23) Now, regarding your question on how can I prove that Jesus was not the Messiah! Two reasons: First, the Messiah cannot be an individual as the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) The second reason is that Jesus was not from the Tribal of Judah which I blame the NT for.

God had nothing to do with the genealogical record of Jesus in the NT but the Hellenists who wrote Matthew and Luke. That's why they had to stop with Mary and not with Joseph who was the one from the Tribe of Judah, not Mary. However, even if Mary was from the Tribe of Judah, it would not help for Jesus to be the Messiah because Tribal genealogy would go down only through the father.

First off:
1. What evidence do you have that it wasn't written by the apostles?
2. Your right no Jew according to their own understanding would write that, being that they had false understandings of scripture and false traditions. Just because a new concept is brought out does not mean god didn't give a further Revelation. It's either inspired or not.
3. So your saying god is not capable of creating a child from nothing or transferring someone into someone's womb?
4. I'll respond later separately on the prophecies regarding the Messiah.
5. If the NT was not written by the apostles, please show me the criteria you use to judge the tanakh and its authenticity, because we are all aware those are not the original manuscripts. How do we know the tanakh is original?

I'll respond on the other issues in a bit.

 

[Ben Avraham]

First off:
1. What evidence do you have that it wasn't written by the apostles?
2. Your right no Jew according to their own understanding would write that, being that they had false understandings of scripture and false traditions. Just because a new concept is brought out does not mean god didn't give a further Revelation. It's either inspired or not.
3. So your saying god is not capable of creating a child from nothing or transferring someone into someone's womb?
4. I'll respond later separately on the prophecies regarding the Messiah.
5. If the NT was not written by the apostles, please show me the criteria you use to judge the tanakh and its authenticity, because we are all aware those are not the original manuscripts. How do we know the tanakh is original?

I'll respond on the other issues in a bit.

1. The apostles of Jesus were Jewish men. A Jew would never teach the Greek doctrine of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:18)
2. Nice try but nothing is Jewish of what have said above.
3. God is capable to do any and every thing but one. The thing you with He did or should have done. God does not work that way.
4. Be my guest!
5. You are probably right. I have a strong tendency to agree that Ezra must have written almost the whole Torah from fragments written by Moses and other prophets. Ezra was the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel and he was given complete freedom in Babylon to dedicate his life to the writing of Jewish books. The Babylonians thought very highly about book writers. All book writers; not only the Jewish one. That's when Ezra prepared the Tanach soon to be canonized. It was Ezra who wrote about the Nephilim in Genesis 6. Were not for him no one would know about that Babylonian legend.

 

[anonymous9887]

1. The apostles of Jesus were Jewish men. A Jew would never teach the Greek doctrine of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:18)
2. Nice try but nothing is Jewish of what have said above.
3. God is capable to do any and every thing but one. The thing you with He did or should have done. God does not work that way.
4. Be my guest!
5. You are probably right. I have a strong tendency to agree that Ezra must have written almost the whole Torah from fragments written by Moses and other prophets. Ezra was the most famous Scribe in the History of Israel and he was given complete freedom in Babylon to dedicate his life to the writing of Jewish books. The Babylonians thought very highly about book writers. All book writers; not only the Jewish one. That's when Ezra prepared the Tanach soon to be canonized. It was Ezra who wrote about the Nephilim in Genesis 6. Were not for him no one would know about that Babylonian legend.

1. Job 1:6 sons of god. The Gospels nor Jesus nor anywhere in the NT teaches that Jesus is the only true god.
2.Further Revelation is possible by YHWH, how then did we get other books after the Torah?
3. Don't understand.
5. You have to show evidence of this claim. How do we know the author of the Torah existed, how do we know Ezra didn't make it up. What is the criteria you are using to validate the tanakh?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

1. Job 1:6 sons of god. The Gospels nor Jesus nor anywhere in the NT teaches that Jesus is the only true god.
2.Further Revelation is possible by YHWH, how then did we get other books after the Torah?
3. Don't understand.
5. You have to show evidence of this claim. How do we know the author of the Torah existed, how do we know Ezra didn't make it up. What is the criteria you are using to validate the tanakh?

If I may take the liberty to say:

3. God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18

5. As with the rest of Scripture, what Ezra wrote has corresponding cross-reference verses and passages showing the internal harmony among the Bible writers.

The apocryphal books exclude themselves being out of harmony with the '66' Bible books ( scrolls )

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I assume that when we refer to "the beginning" we are speaking of the beginning of creation, which many people often seem to associate with the occurrences resulting from the spoken Word of God. But I believe this is not quite right. What happened to the instant right before God spoke, and why do we neglect to include that instance as being inclusive to the beginning? I believe that in the beginning God. God, an eternal and perfect mind existed, and was engaged in contemplation and reflection. I believe it was during this time, or lack thereof, wherein God conceived us and all of creation, wherein God formed and devised His creation plan. Before He put the plan into action, "the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep." And then "... the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." And then God spoke. I think it is important to understand that prior to the spoken word of God, that the Word of God was indeed with God. You might say that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God, but I do not believe that is telling the entire story. Jesus was also there and present with God before the beginning of Creation. In the beginning, God spoke.
In other words, during the beginning, God spoke.
When God spoke He said "let there be light". It was in this very moment, the moment God spoke, that we see the first glimpse of God's Son. That does not mean that God's Son, The Word of God was not present with God before God spoke.
You see, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life."

Wasn't God ' BEFORE ' the beginning according to Psalms 90:2 ? ______
Before the material/physical creation, first spirit creation came into existence.
In other words, the angelic realm existed first before the visible realm.

Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as God was before the beginning.
The same Greek grammar rule applies at both Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B, and at John 1:1
KJV added the letter 'a' at Acts and omitted the letter 'a' at John 1, even though John clearly writes at John 1:18 that NO man has seen God at any time. Didn't people see Jesus ? ______
Can man see God and live - Exodus 33:20; 1 John 4:12 ? ______ People saw Jesus and lived.

 

[Sonofason]

Wasn't God ' BEFORE ' the beginning according to Psalms 90:2 ? ______

God was before the beginning of creation, yes...and so was The Word of God who is God's Son.

Before the material/physical creation, first spirit creation came into existence.
In other words, the angelic realm existed first before the visible realm.

God was before the beginning of creation, and so was His Son.
I have no idea when angels and the "angelic realm" came into existence. I can safely say it was sometime before Adam's life began.

Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as God was before the beginning.
The same Greek grammar rule applies at both Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B, and at John 1:1
KJV added the letter 'a' at Acts and omitted the letter 'a' at John 1, even though John clearly writes at John 1:18 that NO man has seen God at any time. Didn't people see Jesus ? ______
Can man see God and live - Exodus 33:20; 1 John 4:12 ? ______ People saw Jesus and lived.

As I have already shown, according to scripture Jesus is the Word of God, according to John the apostle. And Jesus was present with God before creation, as I have also shown. I have no idea when the existence of God's Son came to being. But I am fairly certain that His physical existence manifested itself when God spoke. It was manifested again into a physical human body in the person we know as Jesus.

 

[anonymous9887]

If I may take the liberty to say:

3. God can Not lie - Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18

5. As with the rest of Scripture, what Ezra wrote has corresponding cross-reference verses and passages showing the internal harmony among the Bible writers.

The apocryphal books exclude themselves being out of harmony with the '66' Bible books ( scrolls )

Context:
He has not yet provided a criteria for which he uses to Judge the tanakh.

My point being that what ever criteria, he should be consistent and apply the same criteria to the NT.

 

[anonymous9887]

Wasn't God ' BEFORE ' the beginning according to Psalms 90:2 ? ______
Before the material/physical creation, first spirit creation came into existence.
In other words, the angelic realm existed first before the visible realm.

Jesus was Not ' before ' the beginning as God was before the beginning.
The same Greek grammar rule applies at both Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B, and at John 1:1
KJV added the letter 'a' at Acts and omitted the letter 'a' at John 1, even though John clearly writes at John 1:18 that NO man has seen God at any time. Didn't people see Jesus ? ______
Can man see God and live - Exodus 33:20; 1 John 4:12 ? ______ People saw Jesus and lived.

Especially at Joshua 5:14

 

[anonymous9887]

God was before the beginning of creation, yes...and so was The Word of God who is God's Son.


God was before the beginning of creation, and so was His Son.
I have no idea when angels and the "angelic realm" came into existence. I can safely say it was sometime before Adam's life began.


As I have already shown, according to scripture Jesus is the Word of God, according to John the apostle. And Jesus was present with God before creation, as I have also shown. I have no idea when the existence of God's Son came to being. But I am fairly certain that His physical existence manifested itself when God spoke. It was manifested again into a physical human body in the person we know as Jesus.

There is no one passage that says Jesus was before the beginning.
Job 38:7 should clear things up on the angel thing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God was before the beginning of creation, yes...and so was The Word of God who is God's Son.
God was before the beginning of creation, and so was His Son.
I have no idea when angels and the "angelic realm" came into existence. I can safely say it was sometime before Adam's life began.
As I have already shown, according to scripture Jesus is the Word of God, according to John the apostle. And Jesus was present with God before creation, as I have also shown. I have no idea when the existence of God's Son came to being. But I am fairly certain that His physical existence manifested itself when God spoke. It was manifested again into a physical human body in the person we know as Jesus.

Where does it say Jesus was before the beginning when Psalms 90:2 puts only God was before the beginning.
So, the pre-human Jesus was NOT before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Yes, Jesus was present with God before creation that is before the rest of angelic and material/physical creation.
Since the pre-human heavenly Jesus was the start or beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3:14 B; Revelation 1:5, then Jesus existed before the rest of heavenly creation - Colossians 1:15 - as 'first born' of every creature, and then later material/physical creation. Angelic creation clapped or applauded when visible material creation came into existence - Job 38:7 - so the invisible realm was created first. ALL things ( visible and invisible ) come through the heavenly first-born pre-human Jesus.

 

[Sonofason]

There is no one passage that says Jesus was before the beginning.
Job 38:7 should clear things up on the angel thing.

I think, as I have shown, the Apostle John did indeed imply that Jesus was before the beginning. I am suggesting here that the beginning was the moment after God spoke. The moment God spoke, Jesus certainly was in existence. But John says that the Word was with God in the beginning, so I see this as meaning that Jesus was with God before God spoke. Jesus has said that nothing was made without Him. The moment something was made Jesus was there. I do believe Jesus was with God prior to the making of things. But I could be wrong.

Okay so angels preceded Adam by a few billion years perhaps. But we don't know if they existed prior to when God spoke. I don't think so. But it's possible.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Especially at Joshua 5:14

Two (2) LORD/Lord's:
KJV at Joshua 5:14 has the word LORD in all upper-case letters.
Where the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) stands is where KJV uses all capital letters for LORD.
So, the LORD of Joshua 5:14 is the LORD God (YHWH), whereas the Lord ( Not in all caps) is angelic.
The Lord (in some lower-case letters) such as also at Psalms 110 refers to the Lord Jesus.

Joshua's posture in front of the angel where KJV uses the word worship was in the sense of prostrating.
To do obeisance has been translated into English as worship. Jesus taught to worship God - John 4:23-24

 

[Sonofason]

There is no one passage that says Jesus was before the beginning.
Job 38:7 should clear things up on the angel thing.

Where does it say Jesus was before the beginning when Psalms 90:2 puts only God was before the beginning.
So, the pre-human Jesus was NOT before the beginning as God was before the beginning.

Yes, Jesus was present with God before creation that is before the rest of angelic and material/physical creation.
Since the pre-human heavenly Jesus was the start or beginning of the creation by God according to Revelation 3:14 B; Revelation 1:5, then Jesus existed before the rest of heavenly creation - Colossians 1:15 - as 'first born' of every creature, and then later material/physical creation. Angelic creation clapped or applauded when visible material creation came into existence - Job 38:7 - so the invisible realm was created first. ALL things ( visible and invisible ) come through the heavenly first-born pre-human Jesus.

Sounds right to me. However, I still tend to think that Jesus pre-existed the moment when God first spoke. But it is when God spoke that a distinction could be made between God and His Son. Prior to that, no distinction could be made. Therefore, prior to God speaking, the only thing there was was God.

 

[Sonofason]

Two (2) LORD/Lord's:
KJV at Joshua 5:14 has the word LORD in all upper-case letters.
Where the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) stands is where KJV uses all capital letters for LORD.
So, the LORD of Joshua 5:14 is the LORD God (YHWH), whereas the Lord ( Not in all caps) is angelic.
The Lord (in some lower-case letters) such as also at Psalms 110 refers to the Lord Jesus.

Joshua's posture in front of the angel where KJV uses the word worship was in the sense of prostrating.
To do obeisance has been translated into English as worship. Jesus taught to worship God - John 4:23-24

This is my understanding as well.

 

[anonymous9887]

I think, as I have shown, the Apostle John did indeed imply that Jesus was before the beginning. I am suggesting here that the beginning was the moment after God spoke. The moment God spoke, Jesus certainly was in existence. But John says that the Word was with God in the beginning, so I see this as meaning that Jesus was with God before God spoke. Jesus has said that nothing was made without Him. The moment something was made Jesus was there. I do believe Jesus was with God prior to the making of things. But I could be wrong.

Okay so angels preceded Adam by a few billion years perhaps. But we don't know if they existed prior to when God spoke. I don't think so. But it's possible.

Jesus is the beginning.

 

[anonymous9887]

This is my understanding as well.

Something that I have noticed is that there was a special angel that was referred to as Jehovah, out of the 3 angels that spoke to Abraham, one of them was really special.

 

[Sonofason]

Jesus is the beginning.

So you do not believe that the word of God was with God before God spoke? I tend to think he was, but my feelings would not be hurt if I should discover that I am wrong.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I think, as I have shown, the Apostle John did indeed imply that Jesus was before the beginning. I am suggesting here that the beginning was the moment after God spoke. The moment God spoke, Jesus certainly was in existence. But John says that the Word was with God in the beginning, so I see this as meaning that Jesus was with God before God spoke. Jesus has said that nothing was made without Him. The moment something was made Jesus was there. I do believe Jesus was with God prior to the making of things. But I could be wrong.
Okay so angels preceded Adam by a few billion years perhaps. But we don't know if they existed prior to when God spoke. I don't think so. But it's possible.

Absolutely, I agree with you that the moment something was made the pre-human Jesus was there.
- Please see Colossians 1:15-16; Ephesians 3:9
Yes, then, Jesus was 'with' God prior to the making of anything (else) because Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B - heavenly Jesus being the only direct creation.
Everything else, heavenly and earthly, comes through Jesus.

Since all angels are considered as sons of God, then which angelic son was only begotten in the heavens.
Since all other angels come through Jesus, then the pre-human Jesus is the only-begotten Son.
God sent His heavenly only-begotten Son to Earth. God cared enough to send His very best !

 

[Sonofason]

Absolutely, I agree with you that the moment something was made the pre-human Jesus was there.
- Please see Colossians 1:15-16; Ephesians 3:9
Yes, then, Jesus was 'with' God prior to the making of anything (else) because Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 B - heavenly Jesus being the only direct creation.
Everything else, heavenly and earthly, comes through Jesus.

Since all angels are considered as sons of God, then which angelic son was only begotten in the heavens.
Since all other angels come through Jesus, then the pre-human Jesus is the only-begotten Son.
God sent His heavenly only-begotten Son to Earth. God cared enough to send His very best !

I'm with you.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Something that I have noticed is that there was a special angel that was referred to as Jehovah, out of the 3 angels that spoke to Abraham, one of them was really special.

Since the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is translated into English as Jehovah, ( Hebrew as Yahweh or Yeho.wah ), then Jehovah is Not an angelic creation, but He is the Creator - Revelation 4:11