iam1me
Active Member
Again not the point I'm trying to make. I'm trying to qualify the degree of worship which Jesus received compared to other human beings. It is clearly not on the same level as human beings (worshiped by angels and humans, and all of creation). Why would Yahweh allow such a thing?
Jesus was exalted above everyone except God - of course the degree of worship is different. However, he is still explicitly beneath God. As for why he would allow it - because he earned it. It is part of his reward for all that he has done, faithful carrying out God's will in all matters - even unto death - and in the process, saving all of us.
Of course it did. It was Israel's clear rebellion and rejection that Yahweh was their ultimate King.
'The Lord said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them. ' 1 Samuel 8:7
As that verse says - the issue was that they rejected God. It was not - as you asserted - because God was worried about the King being honored. In fact, subsequently to the Kingship being instated, the King is treated specially because he is God's anointed. This is why David wouldn't kill Saul - even though he clearly deserved it. Rather, if it were a bad thing for the Kings to be honored then God would have forbid it.
It was never Yahweh's intention to have a mediator between Himself and His people. However Yahweh does not have a problem with Jesus being the mediator. Yahweh is fine with Jesus claiming Kingship.
Mediators existed prior to the Kings. The Angels were mediators. Moses was a mediator. The prophets who would be replaced by Kings were mediators. Mediators are the result of sin, which separates us from God.
'These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful." ' Revelation 17:14
The title Lord of lords and King of kings obviously belongs to Yahweh, so why would they refer this to Jesus?
Because, once more, Jesus has been given authority over all - except God himself.
Did Jesus not also establish the covenant between Himself and humans? (Something only God could do?)
'for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. ' Matthew 26:28
Man has always been involved in establishing the covenants. The covenants are an agreement between two parties - they are thus never established by God alone. Since Jesus mediates the New Covenant, he would obviously be involved in establishing it. In fact, it is because his blood was used to establish the Covenant that he is its mediator.
If you are saying that Yahweh calling Jesus 'Your God' reflects the forming of a covenant, whose point are you exactly proving? Mine or yours? Whenever God forms a covenant, He always makes a clear distinction between the two parties: I am God, you are people.
'Then I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall know that I am the Lord your God, who brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. ' Exodus 6:7
However that that does not seem to be the case between Yahweh and Jesus, where Yahweh addresses Him as God and acknowledges His throne.
The passage with Moses and the Jewish people have nothing to do with forming a covenant. (Nor does it fit these under any of the covenants: Abrahamic, Noahic, Mosaic etc)
You seem to be confused. My comments to which you are immediately replying here had nothing to do with covenants. It had to do with the term "God"
You seem to be dodging the question, and you still haven't given me a solid argument of why worshiping two entities do not violate the monotheistic belief system. The arguments that I have been hearing is conveniently substituting the word 'worship' with 'obeisance' which the New Testament writers never intended; and justifying worship of Jesus as being the same as that of humans.
I'm not dodging the question at all. If anything, you are ignoring key details in my replies. For instance, it would appear you never watched that short video I supplied you - else you wouldn't be making the above comment. "Worship" and "Obeisance" are the same thing - the underlying Greek and Hebrew can be translated either way. It is the translators who have obfuscated this fact to create an imaginary line between the two - choosing to translate the term as "worship" when applied to God Almighty, and otherwise using "obeisance." The fact of the matter is that the term is applied in scripture to both man and to God. Moses, for instance, worships his father-in-law. This was a common practice. And there is nothing in scripture forbidding it - it is simply one way that cultures have traditionally used to show respect and honor to another.
The worship of Jesus is on a completely different scale (read Revelation). It is actually on the same level as that of Yahweh. The burden of proof is on you to show me that it is different. Humans/angels were never worshiped by all of creation like Jesus has. Only Yahweh deserves this position.
'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, ' Exodus 20:5
For simplicity sake, one could define God as:
1) An entity who has authority over all creation
2) An entity who lies outside boundaries of space and time
Jesus falls under both categories. What category would you add to say that Jesus is not God?
Jesus is on a different scale because - again - God exalted him above all excepting God himself, whom he is subject to. You like to keep ignoring this simple fact. The scriptures plainly and repeatedly declare that Jesus is not God, but is rather at the right hand thereof. A highly exalted position indeed - but still a step beneath God himself.
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