Is the term "essence," used by Trinitarians to mean "Godhead", what in common language would be "chemical element"?
So, is God a chemical element that is divided among several "persons"?
Is GOD an "essence", or a Spirit-person?
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Jesus is not God
- Thread starter andy
- Start date
So, is God a chemical element that is divided among several "persons"?
Is GOD an "essence", or a Spirit-person?
firedragon
Veteran Member
I think brother you are anthropormiphising God.
Anyway, I am no trinitarian. I was only quoting the orthodox Athanasian trinitarianism. Three persons with one essence or ousia.
God made man in "his image and likeness"; that is biblical.
He represents Himself as the Father, and Jesus His Son.
What part of that you don't like?
firedragon
Veteran Member
Mate. I am just quoting orthodox Christian doctrine. it's you who don't "like it".
That's not my problem brother.
What makes you think that I don't know it?
And I am quoting you, to help you see the matter from other perspective.
Because He was describing His relationship to the Father. That doesn't exclude the Holy Spirit.
Are you trying to put new words in Jesus' mouth? Are you criticizing the Son of God?
@TheFragranceOfHoliness -- what makes you think that you have knowledge of God (including Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit)? From what you write, you clearly do NOT have that knowledge.
Last edited:
An interesting teaching of Jesus:
Matthew 12:31 “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."
1) Jesus mentions the Son
2) Jesus doesn't mention the Father
3) Jesus mentions the holy spirit.
The holy spirit is part of the Father, His spirit. That's why it's called "the spirit of God" or "the spirit of Jehovah". It is not another person.
The Son is not at the same level that the Father and since the Son is not the primary source of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is speaking of only two persons: God (with His spirit) and the Son.
Matthew 12:31 “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come."
1) Jesus mentions the Son
2) Jesus doesn't mention the Father
3) Jesus mentions the holy spirit.
The holy spirit is part of the Father, His spirit. That's why it's called "the spirit of God" or "the spirit of Jehovah". It is not another person.
The Son is not at the same level that the Father and since the Son is not the primary source of the Holy Spirit, Jesus is speaking of only two persons: God (with His spirit) and the Son.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Because it is a Baha'i teaching that demons and Satan do not exist.
Evil Spirits
As to the question of evil spirits, demons and monsters, any references made to them in the Holy Books have symbolic meaning. What is currently known among the public is but sheer superstition.‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Lights of Guidance, p. 512
The reality underlying this is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature of man. This basic nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions; One is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm. The world of nature is defective. Look at it clearly, casting aside all superstition and imagination... God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil: it is simply the lower state and basic product of nature.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294-295.
Regarding your question relative to the condition of those people who are described in the Gospel as being possessed of devils; this should be interpreted figuratively; devil or Satan is symbolic of evil and dark forces yielding to temptation.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 513
In regard to your question concerning evil spirits and their influence upon souls, Shoghi Effendi wishes me to inform you that what is generally called evil spirit is a purely imaginary creation and has no reality whatever. But as to evil, there is no doubt that it exerts a very strong influence both in this world and in the next. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the "Some Answered Questions" gives us a thorough and true analysis of the problem of evil. You should preferably refer to that book for further explanation on that point.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 521
In answer to those who may ask you what the stand is of your religion on the subject of demons, you can say without hesitation that the concept of Satan or the Devil as an actual being opposed to God is rejected by the Bahá’í teachings but that the term is understood by Bahá’ís to mean the promptings of self and desire and the dark side of human nature.
The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Dec 16, Traditional practices in Africa
The Bahá’í Teachings inform us that there is no independent force of evil in creation, but terms such as "devil" or Satan" are used in sacred books as symbols of the promptings of the lower nature of man.
The Universal House of Justice, 1985 Dec 02, Child Abuse, Psychology and Knowledge of Self
There are dark forces in the world today of despair and hatred and suspicion; the believers must, as the Master said, turn their backs on these and their faces to Him, confident of His help and protection.
Shoghi Effendi quoted in Hooper C. Dunbar’s “Forces of Our Time, The Dynamics of Light and Darkness”
We have been told over and over again in the Teachings that the forces of darkness attack Bahá’ís; and it is these forces which are seeking to disrupt your national body.
Shoghi Effendi quoted in Hooper C. Dunbar’s “Forces of Our Time, The Dynamics of Light and Darkness”
You should never allow the many dark thoughts and dark forces in the world today to weigh on your mind or depress you. The world is very black at present, and humanity in a very degraded condition spiritually. We must accept this fact, but not allow it to influence us. Our life is in the Cause of God, and we draw our strength from it, and the world of the Cause is the world of light.
Shoghi Effendi quoted in Hooper C. Dunbar’s “Forces of Our Time, The Dynamics of Light and Darkness”
Evil Spirits | Bahá’í Quotes
firedragon
Veteran Member
No worries. I am interested in seeing other perspectives as well. That you so much.And I am quoting you, to help you see the matter from other perspective.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I believe there are mediums who can communicate with spirits who have crossed over, but not all who claim to speak with them are legitimate mediums.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Yes, I believe there are angels.
“And now, concerning His words: “And He shall send His angels….” By “angels” is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim. That holy man, Ṣádiq, 37 in his eulogy of the Cherubim, saith: “There stand a company of our fellow-Shí’ihs behind the Throne.” Divers and manifold are the interpretations of the words “behind the Throne.” In one sense, they indicate that no true Shí’ihs exist. Even as he hath said in another passage: “A true believer is likened unto the philosopher’s stone.” Addressing subsequently his listener, he saith: “Hast thou ever seen the philosopher’s stone?” Reflect, how this symbolic language, more eloquent than any speech, however direct, testifieth to the non-existence of a true believer. Such is the testimony of Ṣádiq. And now consider, how unfair and numerous are those who, although they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of belief, have condemned as infidels those by whose word belief itself is recognized and established.
And now, inasmuch as these holy beings have sanctified themselves from every human limitation, have become endowed with the attributes of the spiritual, and have been adorned with the noble traits of the blessed, they therefore have been designated as “angels.” Such is the meaning of these verses, every word of which hath been expounded by the aid of the most lucid texts, the most convincing arguments, and the best established evidences.” (Baha'u'llah, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 78-80)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is absolutely false. The exact opposite is true. I like to maintain harmony.
If people get upset just because I disagree with them that is not my fault.
This is a debate forum and we are not all going to agree on everything.
I notice how you get all bent out of shape when people don't agree with you that Jesus is God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There are angels in heaven and angels on earth.
"Angels" for Baha'is are can be humans who are living on earth or humans who have crossed over to the spiritual world.
I do not refer to these angels as dead humans because what makes them human is not their body, so they are not dead just because their body died.
They are very much alive and living in another world.
"Angels" for Baha'is are can be humans who are living on earth or humans who have crossed over to the spiritual world.
I do not refer to these angels as dead humans because what makes them human is not their body, so they are not dead just because their body died.
They are very much alive and living in another world.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Of course the Bible can be misinterpreted. Just look at what Christians post if you want a perfect example.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, it shows @Hockeycowboy's understanding of who Jesus was.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ohhh ty for saying that your religion says that Satan does not exist. That means I guess that you believe Satan does not exist. Interesting to say the least. Did you say if your religion teaches and whether you believe that angels exist?Because it is a Baha'i teaching that demons and Satan do not exist.
Evil Spirits
As to the question of evil spirits, demons and monsters, any references made to them in the Holy Books have symbolic meaning. What is currently known among the public is but sheer superstition.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Lights of Guidance, p. 512
The reality underlying this is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature of man. This basic nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions; One is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm. The world of nature is defective. Look at it clearly, casting aside all superstition and imagination... God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil: it is simply the lower state and basic product of nature.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá: Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294-295.
Regarding your question relative to the condition of those people who are described in the Gospel as being possessed of devils; this should be interpreted figuratively; devil or Satan is symbolic of evil and dark forces yielding to temptation.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 513
In regard to your question concerning evil spirits and their influence upon souls, Shoghi Effendi wishes me to inform you that what is generally called evil spirit is a purely imaginary creation and has no reality whatever. But as to evil, there is no doubt that it exerts a very strong influence both in this world and in the next. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the "Some Answered Questions" gives us a thorough and true analysis of the problem of evil. You should preferably refer to that book for further explanation on that point.
Shoghi Effendi, Lights of Guidance, p. 521
In answer to those who may ask you what the stand is of your religion on the subject of demons, you can say without hesitation that the concept of Satan or the Devil as an actual being opposed to God is rejected by the Bahá’í teachings but that the term is understood by Bahá’ís to mean the promptings of self and desire and the dark side of human nature.
The Universal House of Justice, 1998 Dec 16, Traditional practices in Africa
The Bahá’í Teachings inform us that there is no independent force of evil in creation, but terms such as "devil" or Satan" are used in sacred books as symbols of the promptings of the lower nature of man.
The Universal House of Justice, 1985 Dec 02, Child Abuse, Psychology and Knowledge of Self
There are dark forces in the world today of despair and hatred and suspicion; the believers must, as the Master said, turn their backs on these and their faces to Him, confident of His help and protection.
Shoghi Effendi quoted in Hooper C. Dunbar’s “Forces of Our Time, The Dynamics of Light and Darkness”
We have been told over and over again in the Teachings that the forces of darkness attack Bahá’ís; and it is these forces which are seeking to disrupt your national body.
Shoghi Effendi quoted in Hooper C. Dunbar’s “Forces of Our Time, The Dynamics of Light and Darkness”
You should never allow the many dark thoughts and dark forces in the world today to weigh on your mind or depress you. The world is very black at present, and humanity in a very degraded condition spiritually. We must accept this fact, but not allow it to influence us. Our life is in the Cause of God, and we draw our strength from it, and the world of the Cause is the world of light.
Shoghi Effendi quoted in Hooper C. Dunbar’s “Forces of Our Time, The Dynamics of Light and Darkness”
Evil Spirits | Bahá’í Quotes
bahaiquotes.com
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Clearly you are wrong in your interpretation.
“I and my Father are one” does not mean that Jesus was God.
“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.