Jesus is not God

[Hockeycowboy]

All scriptures can be interpreted however anyone wants to interpret them, but whether their interpretation is correct is another matter.

Yes they can, but the key is, does it agree with the context? By context, I mean the whole Bible.

Because the truth as the Bible reveals, is completely harmonious. it’s in the interpretations of it where you’ll find discord and contradiction.

When the Bible is understood correctly, as in God has provided the correct interpretation, no other writings or holy books are needed.

 

[YoursTrue]

Clearly you are wrong in your interpretation.

“I and my Father are one” does not mean that Jesus was God.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) means that whatever pertains to Jesus, all His acts and doings, are identical with the Will of the Father. Jesus and God also share the same Holy Spirit, so in that sense they are one. Jesus also shares some (but not all) the Attributes of God so in that sense they are one.

Kinda like when a husband and wife are said to be one in the Bible, it doesn't mean the husband is the wife.

 

[YoursTrue]

Angel's in the Baha'i Wrirings are those people that were so born again into the Holy Spirit, that they gave their lives and efforts for all humanity. These are those that were martyred for faith and the Saints that lived the faith, found in all the ages God sends the Messengers.

Dead humans, are dead humans, let the dead bury the dead.

Regards Tony

Oh. So according to the bahai faith, angels are former humans??

 

[Oeste]

The only thing it shows is how little understanding a person can have who is willing to purposely complicate even the simplest things in Jesus' words, in order to defend his own belief.

I suppose we could make God less complicated. Amoebas are relatively uncomplicated, but then no amoebas is God.

God is much more above us than we are above the amoeba. So if God is simple and uncomplicated, then it's probably not the Christian God.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

The pagan Gods were certainly uncomplicated individuals, and why wouldn't they be? After all, these so-called deities are of our own creation.

Evidently Jesus does not want any human being to attribute to him the honor that only belongs to God.

Yes, as the Son of Man, the honor and glory belong to God. That was his mission, to live and die as a man to pay the sins of man.

But let's not forget he asks for his honor and glory back. Do you understand what this means?

ALL glory belongs to God. Not just to the Father, but to God. Satan wanted glory, his own glory, but God doesn't share HIS glory with anyone, and ALL glory belongs to God. There is no other glory but the glory that is God and that is one reason why Satan was rejected by God. He attempted to make himself glorious!:

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."​

That desire was counted as a vanity to Satan, which is why we give glory to God, rather than ask for it.

Is Jesus good? Yes,

Now we're getting somewhere!

Of course Jesus is good, just as God is good, and since only God is good, Jesus is God.

NOWHERE do we find a scripture that says differently.

but he says he is not good to the same degree that God, his Father, is good.

You were doing so well @Eli G!

Please tell us who is this "he" that "says" Jesus "...is not good to the same degree that God, his Father, is good"???

Is this "he" the Watchtower"? I ask because I've done a diligent search of scripture, and no where can I find any verse that says Jesus is not good.

In fact, as Christians, who by definition are "ones who follows Christ", we should be VERY VERY concerned if we are following an individual who is NOT good or simply not good enough.

God demands GOOD because God is HOLY. Not good "to some degree" or "any degree" simply misses the mark. The idea that Jesus wasn't all that good is an argument I expect from Islam, skeptics, or atheists. It's not an argument I expect from an organization that purports to be engaging in "pure worship" as the only "true religion" here on Earth.

 

[Oeste]

When Jesus said "Why do you call me good?" in Luke 18:19, WHO is that "ME" he's talking about?

The certain "Ruler" was talking with Jesus, so the "ME" is Jesus.

That is obvious.

What is NOT obvious is the claim that Jesus is saying he is somehow, some way, to some degree "not good". Yet many unitarians throw this verse in as some sort of "proof text" that Jesus is NOT God!

Don't get me wrong @Eli G. I understand you are merely presenting your organization's viewpoint. My disagreement is with your organization's argument.

The notion Jesus is claiming he's "not good" is pure EISEGESIS. It's something Unitarians and skeptics place into the text, but certainly not something any reasonable person would take out of it. As careful "stewards of the Word", we are not allowed to go beyond what is written. Claiming Jesus is less than "good" is simply an assault on our Lord's integrity for the sake of doctrine. As a Trinitarian, "Jesus is not all that good" is simply not an argument I expect from fellow Christians, especially from an organization that purports to be God's only "true religion" on earth.

I once thought the same as you, but I'll demonstrate a rather simple rationale I used to divest themselves of this faulty notion:

"WHY do you call me good?" is not an admission that someone is "good" or "not good" anymore than "WHY do you call me a liar?" is an admission that someone is "lying" or "not lying". It is an INQUIRY and not a STATEMENT. We know this by the word "WHY" at the beginning of the sentence, and the little QUESTION MARK at the end that our translators thoughtfully provided.

If anyone has a reasonable basis to believe OTHERWISE then PLEASE....do not keep this rationale to yourself, but share it with your fellow readers.

Once I realized this was an honest QUESTION by Jesus (for our benefit) and not some inadvertent admission he made that he wasn't all that good. Jesus was not putting his "goodness" on a sliding scale.

My next question was why did Jesus say "Only the Father is good"?

And that's when I began to earnestly search the scriptures, because I realized Jesus hadn't said that at all. He said only God was good. He hadn't excluded himself at all. I had excluded him from God, which is impossible, if we are to believe Jesus mirrored the Father.

Jesus had to be as good as the Father, otherwise the Father was not good, or Jesus wasn't "mirroring" the Father at all.

The holy spirit is part of the Father, His spirit. That's why it's called "the spirit of God" or "the spirit of Jehovah". It is not another person.

If only JW's were more consistent in their exegesis @Eli G. Please explain to our readers why "of God" in the "the spirit of God" means the Holy Spirit is "part of the Father" and NOT another person, but "of God" in "the Son of God" means the Son is another person.

Quite simply the Spirit of God will be a person for the same reason the Son of God is a person unless you predetermined that Spirits and/or Sons are not persons.

Other than your unilateral declaration, you give us no logical reason to believe otherwise, and I find the explanations our readers have been receiving to be barely superior and nearly inconsistent as the circular reasoning "The Son of God" means Jesus is "The Son of God" that @Trailblazer gave earlier.

 

[Oeste]

So now, you’re expressing the Father and Jesus as two separate individuals ,

Not at all.

There are no "separate individuals" in the Triune God. There are different persons, but not "separate individuals"

and you’re right… and Jesus said only “one” was good.

Yes because Jesus is God just as the Spirit and Father are God.

Remember, Jesus can ONLY do what he sees the Father doing. If Jesus is NOT good, then either he saw the Father doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing, or his claim he can only do what he sees the Father is doing is hogwash.

I prefer to believe his claim is not hogwash. Jesus is good because the Father is good and only God is good.

The simple truth is that Jesus didn't lie. He only did what he saw the Father was doing and he wasn't wrapping himself in a false sense of righteousness in order to pass himself off as our clean and undefiled lamb.

Also, remember that no man has seen God at any time, yet Jesus sees the Father. He can only do this as the Son of God.

We cannot see the Son of God in his preincarnate state. We would not be able to behold him. But the Word became flesh, so we can see Jesus as the Son of Man.

So the claim that "only God is good" and "No man has seen God at any time" and "Jesus only does what he sees the Father doing" are difficult verses to explain for Unitarians, but rather easy to explain for Trinitarians.

It's a slippery slope for Unitarians. At some point they will need to decide whether to follow Jesus or join the skeptics and attack him. Suddenly, Jesus can't possibly be as good as he's cracked up to be, and all that talk about seeing the Father is just hyperbole. He either isn't saying what he meant, or he simply didn't mean what he said. This "slippery slope" allows them to keep faulty doctrine.

As a Trinitarian, there's no problem or contradiction in explaining how Jesus sees the Father when no man has seen God, no problem with Jesus being good, and no problem explaining how Jesus turned stones into bread when he's "just a man" that couldn't possibly be expected to trick or tempt the Father into doing it for him.

And lastly, we can fully complete, in a logically sane and sound manner:

The only begotten Son of frog is frog,
The only begotten Son of dog is dog
The only begotten Son of man is man
The only begotten Son of God is ______?

Without having to resort to circular logic.

As long as you are bringing unity / oneness into this topic…who else did Jesus say shares that unity?

"Oneness" and "unity" are not the same although there are many similarities. Oneness Pentecostals would never claim God is simply "united" but that God "manifests" himself in different ways. However, like all Christians, they claim their unity through Christ.

So they are good too, now? Since they’re all “one”.

Why would they be "good too", since only God is good? Do they also claim to have done only what they see the Father doing, for their entire life?
Of course not.

And what do you mean by "one"?

One God? One Church? One what?? "One" can mean different things.

But no, they are not "good too". However, anyone in union with Christ will be "covered" by his finished work.

"It is finished" John 19:30​

"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our sins" (Ephesians 1:7)​

"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses" (Colossians 2:13-14)​

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we, being dead to sin, might live to righteousness" (1 Peter 2:24)​

We have our beliefs and disagreements @Hockeycowboy, but it's always a pleasure talking with you.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Remember, Jesus can ONLY do what he sees the Father doing.

Right off, I see this.

If this is true, then why did Satan try to tempt him?

He knew Jesus could be turned against his Father / his God.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

And what do you mean by "one"?

One God? One Church? One what?? "One" can mean different things.

Yes, it can. I’m glad you recognize that. (Most trinitarians don’t.)

Applying Jesus’ words, “the Father and I are one,” with the context of John 17:22,23, we see how Jesus meant that.

We have our beliefs and disagreements @Hockeycowboy, but it's always a pleasure talking with you.

I’m glad to know that. It’s always beneficial to be at peace with others.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Trailblazer]

perhaps you have yet to figure it out ,the JW's feel the same way!

No, I figured that out a long time ago.
We are on the same page when it comes to Jesus is not God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Oh. So according to the bahai faith, angels are former humans??

Two quotes from Abdul'baha, but this is only a couple of passages, there is a lot written on this topic.

Angels are also those holy souls who have severed attachment to the earthly world, who are free from the fetters of self and passion and who have attached their hearts to the divine realm and the merciful kingdom. They are of the kingdom, heavenly; they are of the merciful One, divine. They are the manifestations of the divine grace and the dawns of spiritual bounty. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 409

By heavenly armies those souls are intended who are entirely freed from the human world, transformed into celestial spirits and have become divine angels. Such souls are the rays of the Sun of Reality who will illumine all the continents. Each one is holding in his hand a trumpet, blowing the breath of life over all the regions. They are delivered from human qualities and the defects of the world of nature, are characterized with the characteristics of God, and are attracted with the fragrances of the Merciful. Like unto the apostles of Christ, who were filled with Him, these souls also have become filled with His Holiness Bahá’u’lláh, i.e., the love of Bahá’u’lláh has so mastered every organ, part and limb of their bodies, as to leave no effect by the promptings of the human world.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Bahá’í World Faith, p. 423-424

Regards Tony

 

[cataway]

Angels are also those holy souls who have severed attachment to the earthly world, who are free from the fetters of self and passion and who have attached their hearts to the divine realm and the merciful kingdom.

cant say I have ever read in the Bible where it is said that angels are souls . that would tell me you don't know ,,,,,,but you are hoping YOU are right .
Angels are spirit . that form of spirit is almost immortal .they can be destroyed and will be in the future . The promise is it will happen .

 

[jimb]

Yes, it can. I’m glad you recognize that. (Most trinitarians don’t.)

Applying Jesus’ words, “the Father and I are one,” with the context of John 17:22,23, we see how Jesus meant that.

I’m glad to know that. It’s always beneficial to be at peace with others.

Take care, my cousin.

Unlike yourself, trinitarians clearly understand the nature of the trinity. You go on and on about it, but you clearly lack the requisite knowledge.

An analogy: humans have a body, a mind, and a spirit, yet those qualities are all part of one human.

Here is John 17:20-23 (in context, with my emphases): “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."

What do you think Jesus meant when He said "just as you are in me and I am in you"? Clearly they are part of each other, not separate. And believers, being in Christ, are also part of them: "that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me".

 

[Eli G]

We are on the same page when it comes to Jesus is not God.

Kind of... but not totally.

Saying that Jesus is "a manifestation of God" is more Trinitarian than what you think.

At the moment Bahais say that there are many other "manifestations of God", they go even further than Trinitarians.

 

[Eli G]

The certain "Ruler" was talking with Jesus, so the "ME" is Jesus.

That is obvious.

No so obvious to you since you don't accept it. He said:

"Why you call ME good?"

Imagine that he is saying it to you directly. It seems like you wouldn't accept it even from his mouth... actually, that's what you're doing right now.

What is NOT obvious is the claim that Jesus is saying he is somehow, some way, to some degree "not good".

I am not claiming anything ... Jesus did:

"Nobody is good except one, God."

IOW "I am not as good as God is". You just need to accept what Jesus said. It is not what you have to say or I have to say ... It's about WHAT HE SAID and we both need to accept.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

cant say I have ever read in the Bible where it is said that angels are souls . that would tell me you don't know ,,,,,,but you are hoping YOU are right .
Angels are spirit . that form of spirit is almost immortal .they can be destroyed and will be in the future . The promise is it will happen .

We are all of the Human Soul/Spirit, they mean the same thing and it was given at conception. We are already all connected in this Spirit. All that we think, feel and do, does have an effect upon the whole body of humanity.

Abdul'baha gave a brief explanation on this topic that helps us to understand how we interact with God and creation. I offer it if you are interested.

Spoiler: Difference between mind spirit soul

Abdul'baha From Some Answered Questions #55: Question: What is the Difference between mind, spirit, and soul

Answer: It was already explained that, in general, spirit is divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit. The vegetable spirit is that power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other created things.

The animal spirit is that all-embracing sensory power which is realized through the composition and combination of the elements. When this composition disintegrates, that spirit likewise perishes and becomes non-existent. It may be likened to this lamp: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together and combined, it is lit; and when this combination disintegrates—that is, when the constituent parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit, which distinguishes man from the animal, is the rational soul, and these two terms—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one and the same thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is called the rational soul, encompasses all things and as far as human capacity permits, discovers their realities and becomes aware of the properties and effects, the characteristics and conditions of earthly things. But the human spirit, unless it be assisted by the spirit of faith, cannot become acquainted with the divine mysteries and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, bright, and polished, is still in need of light. Not until a sunbeam falls upon it can it discover the divine mysteries.

As for the mind, it is the power of the human spirit. The spirit is as the lamp, and the mind as the light that shines from it. The spirit is as the tree, and the mind as the fruit. The mind is the perfection of the spirit and a necessary attribute thereof, even as the rays of the sun are an essential requirement of the sun itself. This explanation, however brief, is complete. Reflect upon it and, God willing, you will grasp the details.

I see this also helps us understand as to who Jesus was.

Regards Tony

 

[Eli G]

...I see this also helps us understand as to who Jesus was.

Regards Tony

I don't see how Bahais can help anyone to understand who Jesus was.

At best, all a Bahai can do is show others how BahaUllah viewed Jesus.

Christians have the Scriptures to know Jesus. If we fail to know him, like Trinitarians, our "everlasting life" is at stake (John 17:3).

 

[cataway]

i

We are all of the Human Soul/Spirit, they mean the same thing and it was given at conception. We are already all connected in this Spirit. All that we think, feel and do, does have an effect upon the whole body of humanity.

Abdul'baha gave a brief explanation on this topic that helps us to understand how we interact with God and creation. I offer it if you are interested.

Spoiler: Difference between mind spirit soul

Abdul'baha From Some Answered Questions #55: Question: What is the Difference between mind, spirit, and soul

Answer: It was already explained that, in general, spirit is divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit. The vegetable spirit is that power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other created things.

The animal spirit is that all-embracing sensory power which is realized through the composition and combination of the elements. When this composition disintegrates, that spirit likewise perishes and becomes non-existent. It may be likened to this lamp: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together and combined, it is lit; and when this combination disintegrates—that is, when the constituent parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit, which distinguishes man from the animal, is the rational soul, and these two terms—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one and the same thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is called the rational soul, encompasses all things and as far as human capacity permits, discovers their realities and becomes aware of the properties and effects, the characteristics and conditions of earthly things. But the human spirit, unless it be assisted by the spirit of faith, cannot become acquainted with the divine mysteries and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, bright, and polished, is still in need of light. Not until a sunbeam falls upon it can it discover the divine mysteries.

As for the mind, it is the power of the human spirit. The spirit is as the lamp, and the mind as the light that shines from it. The spirit is as the tree, and the mind as the fruit. The mind is the perfection of the spirit and a necessary attribute thereof, even as the rays of the sun are an essential requirement of the sun itself. This explanation, however brief, is complete. Reflect upon it and, God willing, you will grasp the details.

I see this also helps us understand as to who Jesus was.

Regards Tony

interesting how you use the word ''we'' .......... we are not angels .we are flesh & blood

 

[Eli G]

Unlike yourself, trinitarians clearly understand the nature of the trinity. You go on and on about it, but you clearly lack the requisite knowledge.

Of course, Trinitarians are already "minded" in that direction. Unfortunately, it is a disapproved state of mind, because it prevents them from accepting the clear teachings of Jesus and the rest of Scripture.

For example, a Trinitarian cannot understand that Jesus had to learn to be obedient while in the flesh; or that Jesus says that he has a God who is the same as the God of his brothers. A Trinitarian cannot confidently accept that the Bible says that Jesus prayed and pleaded with the only one who could save him from death, or that he was elevated to a higher position than he had ever held before.

A person who believes that Jesus is God cannot fully understand or accept the Jesus described in the Bible, because they are already mind-set to believe in an imaginary Jesus planted in their minds. For that reason they will try to re-interpret everything the Bible says about Jesus, even if they have to do it in a forced and irresponsible way, so that it can adapt to the Jesus they have in their imagination. So it is not the Bible that tells them what they should believe, but rather they try to make the Bible say what they have already prescribed by their tradition.

 

[Eli G]

interesting how you use the word ''we'' .......... we are not angels .we are flesh & blood

Quite interesting.

Bahais claim to accept the Bible, but like Mormons, they do not actually do so.

The Bible is clear about the existence of angels who were created as invisible spirits before the earth was adapted for future life on it.

Job 38:4 Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.
5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

It is clear that if Baha'Ullah included the Bible as another of his many sources of "enlightenment", it was not precisely from there that he obtained certain fundamental information about reality.

The question is: what were the true sources of information from which Baha'Ullah obtained his supposed "knowledge"? From the occult sciences of paganism? From ancient Greek philosophies? From treatises on occult sciences and witchcraft?

True, Baha'Ullah does not believe that occultism is something that separates man from the true God. How should a Christian regard the claims of a man who believes that occultism brings him closer to some kind of higher knowledge?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christians have the Scriptures to know Jesus. If we fail to know him, like Trinitarians, our "everlasting life" is at stake (John 17:3).

No Christian wants to consider that the verse quotes below has anything to do with them, but it 100% does. That is because the meaning of the Bible has been so changed over the centuries by additional doctrine, devised by many various denominating men, slowly but inevitably adding meaning to what was recorded. The Bible in many aspects, is now very misunderstood.

Spoiler: Adding to the Word

What Does the Bible Say About Adding To And Taking Away From The Word Of God?

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness'” (Matthew 7:21-23).

Remember Jesus said that the Spirit of Truth would take what Jesus Christ gave us and show it unto us again. That is what Baha'u'llah did, but with the Authority of God, not as a man who wanted control over a specific understanding, creating another church branch of understanding.

I do not see why Christians are not able to see, given the division of the Word given in the Book that was given for "One Church", can not consider that have missed what they await for, not once, but 3 times.

This is not an attack, is 100% but a loving call for Christianity to awaken, just as Jesus Christ pleaded to humanity in His day.

If a person is not able to see the Love I offer in the above reply, please just ignore it as the ramblings of a lunitic and just read it as...

Peace, Love and all the best.

Regards Tony