I would offer that is metephor for different peoples, faiths and nations.
Regards Tony
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Jesus is not God
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Regards Tony
cataway
Well-Known Member
A metaphor is a figure of speech that compares two things that are not related by stating that one thing is another
Exactly, as the lion can be the symbol of a Nation, the Lamb and the kid symbols of different faith, etc etc.
This is a Metephor of the Nations and the Peoples and the Faiths coming together as one people on one planet, under one God.
The many sheep, of the many folds, become One fold with One Shepherd, God.
Regards Tony
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Isaiah 11:6-9 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Baha'is don't interpret those verses literally, as if they are referring to animals. We interpret those verses symbolically.
What these verses mean to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
The last verse is a dead giveaway that the previous verses are not about animals, since they cannot be referring to animals, since animals do not hurt nor destroy God's holy mountain, and animals do not have knowledge of the Lord.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is about peace on earth, and much more.
I don't know how you envision a kingdom ruling over the earth.
I see It is all about this peace, but God does not want the rule of earth, God wants our hearts. God has always and continues to leave the rule of earth to humans. Humanity rejected the 'Most Great Peace' at the end of the 19th century and the building of tge kingdom will now have to unfold over centuries. Eventually humanity will base its rule on God's virtues, morals and laws. (The JW view of Armageddon commencing at the first world war is what I see in the Baha'i Writings as well)
Abdul'baha, 2 years before the first world war offered this.
".. We are on the eve of the battle of Armageddon, referred to in the 16th chapter of Revelation. The time is two years hence, when only a spark will set aflame the whole of Europe. The social unrest in all countries, the growing religious skepticism antecedent to the millennium are already here. Only a spark will set aflame the whole of Europe as is prophesied in the verses of Daniel and in the Book [Rev.] of John...."
Yet all the warnings given were not heeded.
The next step will be the Lesser Peace. This will be a federation of Nations still implementing the rules of men, that will be inclusive of some of the requirements given by God.
I see this is when men will really try to do away with religion, only to find that religion is the only path to a lasing unity.
First, it is already foretold after the 2nd world war, that there will be great world civil unrest, natural disasters, and national wars on various fronts, coinciding with a catastrophic event, that changes the direction of humanity. I personally see the signs of this, seem to indicate that prediction is fast approaching.
I hope you stay safe, and we'll as this all unfolds, be confident that God loves all and in all this waywardness of humanity, there is God's Will unfolding.
Regards Tony
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Oeste
Well-Known Member
I plainly stated "the "ME" IS Jesus.
What part of my statement did you not understand?
Honestly @Eli G, sometimes you appear so ready to be disagreeable that you disagree even when we agree.
Yes, Jesus is making an inquiry and not a statement. The initial word "WHY" followed by a question mark at the end of the sentence will tip the reader off.
Seriously? These may be YOUR "in other words", @Eli G. They are not the words of Jesus or the prophets.
Jesus NEVER said "I am not as good as God". Why would he when he is God??
If Jesus is as no-good as you and the skeptics claim he is, then we have not been saved by anyone! The lamb atoning for our sins cannot be marred by blemish or taint.
Why? All we have to do is read the New World Translation to find out!
"He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact representation of his very being" (Hebrews 1:3 NWT)
An "exact representation" is not "inexact".
So we have a quandary here. The NWT tell us he is the exact representation of God, and we have Eli G claiming this "exact representation" isn't as good as God. Who do we believe?
IMO, Jesus exactly reflects God or he doesn't. There is no lower, 2nd tier standard for God, so there is no lower, 2nd tier standard for Jesus to reflect. The only way Jesus can exactly reflect God and be no good is if God is no good, and we all know that only God is good.
Help us out here Eli. Jesus is the exact representation and reflection of God- just like scripture says - or he is not. A 99% sin free Savoir is not going to cut it. ANY deception found in Christ would make him instantly unqualified.
Perhaps you have a WT article claiming Jesus is not not as good as God?
And where is the Scripture that says this?
I mean, for something so important as identifying who God is, the Bible should be filled with such clear & unambiguous statements like you just said. But where are they? They’re not there.
You have one, John 1:1, which in most translations (written by Trinitarians) says “…and the Word was God”. But next, John says, “This one was in beginning with God.” (Who can be “with” someone, and also be the same one?) And just a few verses later, John says, “No one has ever seen God.”
Why would the Apostle write something so ambiguous? Do all translations word John 1:1 that way? No…
John 1:1 is not ambiguous at all, if you’re a Unitarian & use E. Goodspeed’s Translation,
“In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.”
…Or Moffat’s,
“THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.”
…Or The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson,
“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word.”
(BTW, none of these are JW.)
The question arises, ‘Why would these translators render John 1:1 this way?’
Because of Greek grammar….
Koine Greek had no indefinite articles (like “a” and “an”, in English). So as needed, when translating into English, “a” or “an” has to be supplied.
So, why add “a god” at John 1:1? So it will agree with the context!
Why do some Bibles say “divine” or “god-like”?
According to Philip B. Harner, in his article “Qualitative Anarthrous Predicate Nouns: Mark 15:39 and John 1:1,” such clauses as the one in John 1:1, “with an anarthrous predicate preceding the verb (as in “god was the word”, and not “the word was god”) are primarily qualitative in meaning. They indicate that the logos has the nature of theos.” He suggests: “Perhaps the clause could be translated, ‘the Word had the same nature as God.’” (Journal of Biblical Literature, 1973, pp. 85, 87. Parenthetical content, bold type, & italics are mine.)
Translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb. Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.”
Because of this grammatical structure, highly acclaimed scholar and priest John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317.
These renderings of John 1:1,”..and the Word was a god”, “..and the Word was divine”, “..and the Word was a powerful one (non-JW 2001 translation)”, share contextual agreement with Paul’s statement at 1 Corinthians 8:5,6 where, in part, he states, “… there is actually to us one God, the Father, out of whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”
It also agrees with the Christians’ prayer @ Acts 4:24-31, where they called Jesus, God’s “Holy Servant.”
And Paul’s inspired words, “the head of the Christ is God.” - 1 Cor. 11:3
And Jesus’ prayer to His Father @ John 17:3, where Jesus addressed Him as “the only True God”, and then referring to himself as “the one whom You sent forth.”
And when Jesus cried out before he died, “my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
And on, and on…
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Tony, hello my friend. I’d like to point out something….
Cataway said:
“The wilderness and the parched land will exult, And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron.”
And vss.6,7…
“At that time the lame will leap like the deer, And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert plain. 7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool, And the thirsty ground springs of water. In the lairs where jackals rested, There will be green grass and reeds and papyrus.”
Yes, this is the promise for Earth, our planet.
However, your words…
“World” refers to people, and to the infrastructure of their societies…
1 John 2:17 states:
“ Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.”
Whereas Ecclesiastes 1:4 says: “… the earth abideth forever.”
(In some verses, earth can refer to people too. For example, Genesis 11:1 is definitely talking about people. So is 2 Peter 3:7,10,13; and Revelation 21:1)
Have a good day, my cousin.
Cataway said:
Then you replied:
This reminds me of Isaiah 35:1…
“The wilderness and the parched land will exult, And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron.”
And vss.6,7…
“At that time the lame will leap like the deer, And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy. For waters will burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert plain. 7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool, And the thirsty ground springs of water. In the lairs where jackals rested, There will be green grass and reeds and papyrus.”
Yes, this is the promise for Earth, our planet.
However, your words…
… don’t apply to the planet.
“World” refers to people, and to the infrastructure of their societies…
1 John 2:17 states:
“ Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever.”
Whereas Ecclesiastes 1:4 says: “… the earth abideth forever.”
(In some verses, earth can refer to people too. For example, Genesis 11:1 is definitely talking about people. So is 2 Peter 3:7,10,13; and Revelation 21:1)
Have a good day, my cousin.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I could not find the right words to express that but that was very well said.
Indeed, all God wants is our hearts!
5: O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4
59: O SON OF BEING! Thy heart is My home; sanctify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 17
“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 279
It’s a dual-application prophecy…
“…and a little child shall lead them.”
No adults, men or women, will let a “little child” lead them!
It is talking about animals. Literal wild beasts.
And it also applies to people acting like beasts…or i should say, not acting like animals.
Remember, the first fulfillment of this prophecy was relating to the Jews’ return from Babylon, a 500-mile route, and restoration of their homeland.
Jehovah was promising that nothing would harm them, wild beasts nor beast-like people. All of that occurred.
The account doesn’t say, “They shall not hurt nor destroy my holy mountain”;
It says: “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.”
In reality, all of Jehovah God’s realm/jurisdiction of worship, including Heaven and earth, the Universe (Ephesians 1:10).
Currently, animals can hurt and destroy people & themselves. But when the Earth is permeated with God’s spirit - the fruit age of which is “love…peace…mildness” (Galatians 5:22,23), peace will prevail.
The Bible states differently.
Daniel 2:44…
“In the days of those kings [the last ones prophesied, which are the ones we are living under now], the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it slone will stand to times indefinite.”
This is the Kingdom that Jesus taught his followers to pray for. For it to “come.”, and for God’s “will to be done on the Earth.” - Matthew 6:9-10
Yes, after it ‘crushes’ all opposing rulerships, “it alone will stand to times indefinite.”
I’m sorry, but yes, He did.
When speaking with Martha, before He resurrected Lazarus, Jesus told her that “in the Last Day” (that was the context), “…. he that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all.” - John 11:24-26.
Those chosen to rule with Christ in Heaven, in order to get there, they are “baptized into His death”…
Paul wrote at Romans 6:3-5 that those “united with [Jesus] in the likeness of his death” will “be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection.” Jesus was raised as a spirit and went to heaven. So that will be the outcome for all “in union with Christ,” IOW, all spirit-anointed Christians.
So these chosen ones, have to physically die, to get their spiritual body.
So when Jesus was speaking with Martha, that a person living in the Last Day who “exercises faith in me will never die at all,” it’s about living physically, forever. These don’t go to heaven… Matthew 5:5 applies to them.
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You know, I just now read her reply — I’m behind, so busy with other things — and I saw that, too, I was thinking the same thing!I wonder how a person who says "I do not know the Bible well enough" can say at the same time "that belief is not supported by the Bible".
John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
I’d really like to meet you, Eli, my brother!
How can I get you my information? I can’t seem to send you a PM.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I already gave my interpretation of these verses and I am not going to argue with you.
You believe the JW interpretation, I believe the Baha'i interpretation, and never the twain shall meet.
What these verses mean to a Baha’i is that In the future diverse religions and races will become comrades, friends and companions. The contentions of races, the differences of religions, and the barriers between nations will be completely removed, and all will attain perfect union and reconciliation. Eventually, there will be only one religion, the religion of God.
The verse says:
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
That means the people will not hurt nor destroy anything in God's holy mountain because the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord .
It does not say:
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy all in my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
So it is not referring to animals who are in the holy mountain. Animals are not even in the holy mountain, which is on Mount Carmel (see Isaiah 35).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Obviously, this prophecy is about the last days, when Christ will return to earth
Isaiah 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Isaiah 11 King James Version (KJV)
11 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.
All of these prophecies in Isaiah 2 and Isaiah 11 were fulfilled after the coming of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. I can explain how each of them were fulfilled, but I don't think it would matter to you since you have your mind made up, so I won't waste my time.
The verse says:
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain:
It says my holy mountain.
It does not say God’s realm/jurisdiction of worship, including Heaven and earth, the Universe.
God's holy mountain is God's holy mountain. It is not God’s realm/jurisdiction of worship, including Heaven and earth, the Universe.
You are adding to the Bible what it does not say, inserting your own beliefs, something that JWs are famous for.
You are correct in saying that Daniel 2:44 is about the Kingdom that Jesus taught his followers to pray for. For it to “come.”, and for God’s “will to be done on the Earth.” - Matthew 6:9-10
But it is God's Kingdom on Earth, not Jesus' Kingdom on Earth.
Matthew 6 King James Version (KJV)
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Note that Jesus said Thy, not My.
Jesus never planned to have anything to do with a Kingdom on Earth.
John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Jesus never claimed to be a king, and Jesus never said He was coming back to Earth and establish an earthly Kingdom
John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
I know what JWs believe, but Jesus never said that He would establish a kingdom on Earth from heaven.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You said
The Bible states differently.
Daniel 2:44…
Of course it is stated differently in Daniel, but it is all about the SAME Kingdom of God on Earth.
When that Kingdom is established, what it says in Isaiah 11 will take place, fulfilling the prophecies in that chapter.
Yes, there are both: heavenly spirit bodies and earthly natural bodies
Please notice that chapter 15 is addressed to Jesus' brothers', like Jesus' brothers ' found at Matthew 25:40
Those ' brothers' are Not the 'sheep'
There is a BIG difference between Jesus' little flock' and Jesus' other sheep' John 10:16; Luke 12:32
Who are Jesus' earthly subjects or citizens according to Psalm 72:8 ___________
The ' brothers' are the one who will have that FIRST or EARLIER heavenly resurrection - Revelation 20:6; 2:10
Those brothers' will govern with Christ for 1000 years over Earth - Rev. 5:9-10
Not govern an Earth vacant of people, but people who are the meek who will inherit the ___________- Matthew 5:5; Psalm 37:9-11
So, it is those ' brothers' ( aka saints/holy ones of Daniel 7:18) who are transformed ( to heavenly life )
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am sorry but Jesus did not say this. This is JW dogma, nothing more, nothing less, and it is NOT supported by the Bible.
Anyone can twist the meanings of verses and try to make the Bible say what it does not say.
John 11:24-26 does not say: he that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all.”
Well, we all know that many people have died since this verse was recorded, so that means that this verse cannot refer to physical death.
John 11:24-26 says:
John 11
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
They won't die because that will attain eternal life.
When Jesus referred to eternal life, He was not referring to physical life of the body. He was referring a quality of life, spiritual life, loving God and being close to God. Eternal life is attained by knowing God and Jesus, as the verse below says.
Jesus said:
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus did not say:
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might be raised from the dead and live forever on Earth.
The soul is eternal, the body perishes. That is why Jesus said: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
All the verses below refer to eternal life of the soul, not life of the physical body.
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
All souls will continue to exist in the spiritual world after the body dies but not all souls will have eternal life (everlasting life).
Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God which, according to Jesus, comes from believing in Him.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whenever Jesus referred to eternal life, He was Jesus was referring to eternal life in heaven, Jesus said NOTHING about living forever on earth, EVER. This is what Jesus said about heaven and earth.
Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
JWs are so looking forward to doing the exact opposite of what Jesus taught because they have been duped by their church.
All of this is JW dogma, nothing more, nothing less, and it is NOT supported by a correct interpretation of the Bible.
JWs have twisted the meanings of verses to support their dogma.
Do you see any reason for this conversation to continue? I don't.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
With all due respect, I do not want to see any more misapplications of verses and twisted interpretations of verses by JWs.
I can't read any more of these. It's too painful. I have had enough.
I have said enough. If I say any more I might lose my right to post on this forum.
Yes, please notice 1st Cor. 15:1 shows that chapter is addressed to Jesus' brothers', like the brothers found at Matthew 25:40
Jesus was Not restored to heavenly life until AFTER his death and resurrection is a 'spirit body'
Bodies on Earth are fleshly bodies, so in order to go to heaven one would give up his physical body because in Heaven there are spirit bodies like the spirit angels have
The 'brothers' have physical bodies that are visible until death
Remember 1st. Cor. 15: 20,21 because those 'brothers' are the 'first fruits' meaning having a first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6
Those 'brothers' do Not sleep in death but changed into ' celestial bodies' - 1st Cor. 15:40
That does Not mean there are Not ' terrestrial bodies' physical that will live on Earth
Those in Heaven with Christ govern with Christ serving as both kings and priests - Rev. 5:9-10
Who will they govern over but the meek people who will inherit the ____________ - Matt. 5:5; Psalm 37:9-11
You are Not alone in your thinking, and Jesus did say his followers would be hated - Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:9
- www.jw.org