Oeste said:
The Father is speaking in the first person here. He says the Son is God.
No, He did not say that. Can you show me where in the whole Bible did God say' the Son is God'??
Oeste said:
Then we are right back to where we started, concerning the veracity of Scripture, and whether Hebrews and other books should be ripped from the canon.
"And to the Son..." is located in Hebrews 1:8. It shows the Father addressing someone else besides Himself as God. This God is the Son, and he does not come under condemnation or judgement, so he, the Son, is in fact God.
And we also know that Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation taken from Psalm 45 in which ‘
’And to the son….’ was
NOT mentioned at all.
As I said before, this is what the authors of the NT normally do – they will quote OT verses, make subtle changes to showcase Jesus as God, and present it in the NT as ‘inspired’ writings!! And the Trinitarians think they have God’s Words with them when the lying pens of the scribes/NT authors have made it a book of truth and lies!
Oeste said:
In any event, the book of John tells us Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. He is the only begotten Son of God, and the begotten is always the same as the begetter. It's the pattern made by our Creator, Jesus Christ:
Well, not really, David was also the ‘begotten son’ of God as we are told in Psalm 2.
- “I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee” – Psalm 2:7 KJV.
Oeste said:
Since you do not believe Paul, at the very least you may have come to accept and believe in the pattern set by Christ. So I will ask you the same question I asked our Unitarian friends earlier. Perhaps you will have an answer that does not involve a hefty dose of circular logic:
The only begotten Son of Frog is Frog.
The only begotten Son of Dog is Dog.
The only begotten Son of Man is Man.
The only begotten Son of God is ______?
If you can answer this question in a logically consistent manner, without the use of circular logic, or denial that God has a begotten Son, we can proceed with our discussion of whether Jesus is God.
Of course, since we are discussing scripture, readers would only expect your answer to be supported by same.
Again, you are judging God Almighty by human standards when He’s ABOVE all of His Creations and He is beyond the comprehension of the human mind.
Claiming Jesus is God and believing Jesus himself claimed to be God, IS accusing Jesus of blasphemy.
Trinitarians
are no different than the Jews who said to Jesus, “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “
but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” – John 10:33
Now, if Jesus opposed the Jews for saying that he claimed to be God, why make you think Jesus will not oppose you for saying the same thing???
Try to give a logical and rational response.
Oeste said:
I don't want you to think I am ignoring what you've posted, so I will give some brief answers:
You’re missing the point here…God making this happen is a lot to get excited about! Without His willingness, we and creation would be nothing. At that point there’ nothing to be excited about because we’re not there.
But then again, you don’t believe God created Jesus, or to put it in other words, you don’t believe God Almighty is capable of creating Jesus, although you believe God created Adam and Eve but somehow, He is incapable of creating Jesus, right?
Oeste said:
C'mon @JerryMyers, let's give our Unitarian friends a bit more credit than that.
Take a walk into any Kingdom Hall or invite a JW to a "bible" study. They may smile and say your view is "interesting", but I don't think they'll run it up the chain of command with a suggestion it be implemented by their Governing Board. Ditto for any other Unitarian Church. And while you will be free to bring up your own personal beliefs at study, they'll expect any such belief to be over and done with by the time you get baptized.
Failing that, a warning rather than an endorsement will be given to the Congregation.
I'm not picking on them. This will be true for virtually any Christian church you come into.
C’mon
@Oeste, JW, Unitarian, and Muslims all rejected the trinity/Jesus is God – that’s
the primary, their rendering of certain Biblical verses is secondary.
When God Almighty Himself has declared clearly who He is, and
Jesus himself has denied he’s God, then, the Trinitarians ‘justifications’ for claiming Jesus is God are just noises, just like the Jews who accused Jesus of blasphemy – just noises.
Oeste said:
This has yet to be explained by you. Can you elaborate?
I don’t quite get you here – are you saying you don’t believe God created mankind??
And you still have not answered me – “Do you think God is incapable of creating Jesus by just commanding and willing it to exist?
Oeste said:
Here you claim that nothing in scripture can be trusted because we don't have the "ORIGINAL" or autographs. This tosses out both Old and New Testaments.
You still CANNOT understand the phrase ‘a mixture of truth and lies’. You seemed to understand ‘a mixture of truth and lies’ to mean ‘100% lies’ which is NOT what I am saying.
Oeste said:
Do you understand why scripture needed to be copied and recopied? Are you aware of the mechanics in place to assure it was copied correctly?
Well, why don’t you tell me …... and let’s see how well you understand that.
Oeste said:
Here's a good example. Please explain, if our bible cannot be trusted, and since this is a copy, of a copy, of a copy, the process you used to determine this was a "true" verse from our bible, and not a "false" verse by some scribe playing a prank?
Don't worry about what I think about this verse. I happen to think it's true. What I don't think is our bible is corrupted. A corrupted bible is something YOU believe in. The odds that our scriptures have been corrupted by scribes since the time of Jeremiah are about nil. So, since you believe our bible corrupted, tell us how you were able to ascertain this particular verse from Jeremiah was a "true" verse and not one of the lying verses you've warned us about? I'm sure you've researched the matter.
‘A copy of a copy of a copy…. ‘ is NOT a process I use to determine what is true and what is false in the Bible - are you crazy?! ….. and I have told you how I determine what is true and what could be false, misinterpreted, mistranslated, or fabricated, in the context of who God Almighty is and who Jesus is ... Don’t you ever read what I wrote? No wonder, you keep repeating the same question over and over again when that has been responded to.
Oeste said:
Read what the biblical text says more closely. This is a great example of eisegesis, where you insert your own meaning into the text.
Do you mean like what the writer of Hebrews 1:8 did with Psalm 45 by inserting “ .. and to the Son ..” which is NOT in Psalm 45? Maybe it’s you who should read the biblical texts more closely, ya?
Oeste said:
Very good @JerryMyers. Now tell us, was this the scribes only role, or did they perform other services as well?
I think once you understand the role of the scribes, you will understand why Jesus railed against them. You'll also understand why it was necessary for Jesus to confirm that scripture was not and cannot be broken.
Very good,
@Oeste. Now tell us have Jesus ever quoted any passage from the NT as the Trinitarians always do??
As I said before, Jesus NEVER knew the NT so, he cannot be confirming the NT scripture. In other words, the one you heavily rely upon to ‘support’ your belief, IS NOT confirmed by Jesus.
Oeste said:
I've already told you I believe Jeremiah 8:8. I just don't believe anything you've told us about it.
Again, show us where in Jeremiah 8:8 does it tell us our bible is corrupt and cannot be trusted. I think you've somehow conflated the "lying pen of the scribes" with "the Word of God" or the inspired text, which is nonsense.
And I have told you that your Bible is a copy of a copy of a copy….. of the original manuscript. What became corrupted are the copies made by the scribes, NOT the original manuscript before it was copied, which is the Law of God.
Oeste said:
Lying pen of the scribes = Word of God is simply not found in scripture. True, we find it in your commentary, but nowhere do we find where these lying pens were ever mixed or comingled into scripture. That is simply another fantastic claim I suspect is heavily endorsed by non-believers.
I don’t quite follow you here – is it not that anything God says IS the Word of God as it was God who said it???
Oeste said:
Your rendering of John 1:1 is still aberrant. The Word does not have to "become" anything to create anything. The Word of God predates creation, so the Word does not need to become a man to create man into existence. Neither does it have to become light in order for light to exist. Ditto for squirrels and gnats. The Word does not become these things to create these things.
There is The Creator and there is the created result. In the context of John 1:1, the Word of God is the Command/Word which was uttered by The Creator and that Command/Word becomes a man, which is the result of that Command/Word which The Creator uttered.
Why is that so difficult to understand??
Oeste said:
"LET" not "CREATE". God did not have to create light because He IS the light.
Well, that’s because God Creates by just uttering a word/the Word of God, unlike how humans create anything. Are you questioning God on how He should Create anything/anyone???
Oeste said:
Not at all.
Hmmm, you did say God IS the Light (literally!), now you don’t think God meant to say “Let there be God” when God says “Let there be Light”??
So, what do you think “God is the Light” really mean??
Oeste said:
Well, simply show us where God or Jesus states scripture is a mixture of truth and lies. You keep pointing to Jeremiah, forgetting that Jesus had already affirmed scripture cannot be broken, and this long after Jeremiah was written.
Also, you may want to quote exactly where in scripture God says Jesus is the only prophet to be believed.
When did I ever say or imply Jesus is the only prophet to be believed???