Jesus is not God

[Oeste]

Oeste said:
You declare your dogma above the word of God. Hebrews 1:8 refutes your dogma, but rather than throw out your dogma you throw out Hebrews 1:8.
It really doesn't get any clearer than this @JerryMyers. IMO, you have been heavily influenced by Bahai dogma, which, for you, takes precedence over Christian scripture.

I think you are confused here – it is you who declare your dogma above the Words of God Almighty. I stand by, and will defend God Alm

Oeste said:
Then it's a good thing Trinitarians don't contradict scripture from the OT, but use the NT to reveal the Old.

The NT did not (and need not) reveal anything about the OT in the NT,

I know of no reputable theologian or even secular scholar who would agree with your statement.

as the OT is already comprehensible as it is.

No one claims the Old Testament is incomprehensible. The issue was whether the NT contradicts the Old, which it doesn’t. It reveals what was hidden in the Old.

What the authors/translators did is use the OT as a convenient platform to showcase Jesus as a God.

Absolutely! Ultimately, both the Old and New were inspired by the same author.

Oeste said:
Triune is ONE God JerryMyers, just like a pair is ONE pair.

A triune God CANNOT BE ONE God,

Then a pair of CANNOT BE ONE pair.

just as a '3-men' ONE team CANNOT BE ONE man.

They are 3 men, ONE team just as the triune God is 3 persons, ONE God.

Oeste said:
Are these players on the same team? Then it's one team, and not two teams.

Well, ONE GOD IS ONE GOD…..

Absolutely!

two, three or more ‘Gods’…. Are NOT ONE GOD. – they are a team, pair, couple, triune, a group, and whatever you want to call them,

I agree, but then no one here is arguing differently.

Oeste said:
We rely on both. The thematic themes developed in the Old Testament are carried forth and fulfilled in the New. What is hidden in the Old is revealed in the New. The promises of the Old culminate in Christ.

Trinitarians rely heavily on the NT more than the OT.

Matthew 7:24-27 tells us to build on a rock rather than sand, while Ephesians 2:20 tells us that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (our Old Testament), and that Christ is our chief cornerstone.

It's all there.

There’s nothing in the OT that UNEQUIVOCALLY points to Jesus Christ.

Well Herod certainly didn't think so. The prophesy of a coming Messiah was so strong that he ordered all under the age of two to be slaughtered.

Your understanding of ‘The promises of the Old culminate in Christ’ came from what the NT authors/translators and your church preachers told you.

Since it did not come from what your church teachers told you, I think we can certainly agree on this.
Thus, the only thing left is to determine if what the NT authors have told us is supported by evidence or the weight of the evidence which clearly it has.

Lastly, as Jesus said, if you don’t believe him, at least believe his works. He showed many wonders and yet many still do not believe.

Oeste said:
Who's logic? You're own?? The Baha'u'llahs???

Well, IT IS a logical fact that God does NOT beget because if He does, He’s NOT God!

I’m not sure where this “logical fact” you claim stems from. It's certainly not from scripture.

IT IS also a logical fact that if you jump in front of a speeding train, you will die – are you going to ask me "‘who’s logic? You’re own?? The Baha’u’llahs???’"

I’m not seeing the logical connection between begetting and jumping in front of a speeding train.

Oeste said:
God begets. That is a scriptural fact for Christians the world over. Your God may differ. There is nothing about begetting that makes God not God.

Can you show me where exactly that scriptural fact that said God begets??

To what point or avail?

You have already told us you believe our scripture is a mixture of truth and lies. If I show you scripture you will only allege it’s another lie.

In any event, you appear far more likely to believe Unitarians, so perhaps they will post this for you.

 

[Oeste]

Oeste said:
Read the scripture. The Jews claimed Jesus was making himself to be God "...You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." That is the context.

Well, that’s what the JEWS claimed, NOT Jesus.

Agreed!

You asked me to read the scripture, yet you said ‘The Jews claimed Jesus was making himself to be God’!!! Maybe your subconscious mind is telling you what I am trying to tell you - Jesus NEVER claimed he's God, BUT it's the Jews who claimed Jesus had claimed to be God.

But I’m not claiming Jesus stated he was God here. Neither am I claiming Jesus is denying he’s God as you are.

I’m stating Jesus neither affirms or denies he’s God in these passages, but is simply explaining to the Jews why he hadn’t blasphemed.

That's why the Jews picked up stones, and that's the charge Jesus had to address.

Oeste said:
Psalm 45:6, but you are anti-Pauline, believe the NT is a mixture of truth and lies, and you've stated the Old Testament was corrupted by scribes since the time of Jeremiah, so your "Huh??!" is an understandable response.

I am not anti-Pauline or anti-NT. I don’t reject ALL writings of Paul/NT, I only reject writings that are contradictory to what God Almighty has declared of Himself in the OT.

Your last sentence, highlighted in bold, is what I would refer to as a “preconception”.

I recommend approaching the NT without this preconception. Take the passenger seat and let the Spirit drive and guide.

The Jews had many preconceptions about scripture, to the point of constructing an entire litany of legal machinations they called the Oral Law. They also had a preconception of their Messiah, expecting him to immediately establish the Kingdom through force.

We all have biases and see through a glass darkly, so no need to carry unnecessary luggage into the reading room. In any event, I see not contradiction with the OT and Hebrews 1:8.

Oeste said:
No, you do not agree:

Of course, I agree. When doctrine (especially man-made) contradicts scripture, then the doctrine, like the trinity, should be thrown under the bus.

If God Almighty has declared Himself, on number of times, that HE IS the ONLY God and Savior, besides Him there’s no God, then, any writings that CONTRADICT who God Almighty has declared of Himself is SUSPECTED. A good example is Hebrews 1:8.

This is a good example of how a preconception can lead the reader into nullifying the inspired text. The Jews already "knew" what the Messiah would be, so when Jesus arrived he was tossed.

Oeste said:
You declare your dogma above the word of God. Hebrews 1:8 refutes your dogma, but rather than throw out your dogma you throw out Hebrews 1:8.
It really doesn't get any clearer than this @JerryMyers. IMO, you have been heavily influenced by Bahai dogma, which, for you, takes precedence over Christian scripture.

I think you are confused here – it is you who declare your dogma above the Words of God Almighty. I stand by, and will defend God Almighty on whom He has DECLARED HIMSELF IS by His Words in the OT, and that is, God Almighty is ONE and ONLY, and besides Him, there are NONE.

No, I simply believe Hebrews 1:8 to be inspired scripture, but I can understand why non-Christians would think otherwise.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I simply believe Hebrews 1:8 to be inspired scripture, but I can understand why non-Christians would think otherwise.

Hello, Oeste. Hope you're doing well tonight. Reading some of your posts, and wonder what you think about Matthew 28:18 which says, "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
How do you feel about the statement that Jesus said all authority in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN to him?

 

[Dimi95]

Agreed!

This is incorrect.

Jesus claims to be God in each Gospel multiple,multiple times..

 

[Oeste]

First of all, the Jews NEVER really believed Jesus is God because if they did, they would NOT accuse Jesus of blasphemy in the first place, and who dare pick a fight with God (that is, if they believe Jesus is God)??

Agreed!

So, why would they accuse Jesus of blasphemy?? The reason is obvious – the High priests are not comfortable with Jesus’ teachings as it go against their traditional practices. So they wanted to get rid of Jesus, once and for all, by killing him, but they had to do it the ‘right’ way without raising suspicions on them, so, the best way is to accuse Jesus of blasphemy which by the law of the day, the penalty is death.

Yes, the accusation was blasphemy. As the Jews saw it, the charge was warranted:

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” John 10:33

So, they begin questioning Jesus hoping Jesus will say something they can use to accuse Jesus of blasphemy. When Jesus said “My Father and I are one”, they understood that as Jesus claiming to be God, and started to pick stones to throw at Jesus. By questioning the Jews, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”, tells us Jesus himself did NOT expect his statement ‘I and the Father are one” to be understood as a claim to be God. Obviously, Jesus thought the Jews are stoning him for the good works he has done, NOT that he was claiming to be God (which is what the Trinitarians also believed).

The statement "The Father and I are one" is certainly a statement of deity. Remember, Jesus is not simply stating the Father is in him. He is stating that he is in the Father.

You are a man @JerryMyers. When was the last time YOU were in the Father?

This was blasphemy as far as the Jews were concerned and it would be if he were not God. But Jesus doesn't tell them they were correct or incorrect. He simply explains why he hadn't blasphemed.

So read the narrative, @Oeste, and this time try to use your faculty of intelligence which God gave you foc, but you refused to use it…. OR you can explain using the scripture how Jesus explained to the Jews that he has not blasphemed.

See above.

Again, GOD DOES NOT BEGET, IF HE DOES, THEN HE CANNOT BE GOD!!

Well, not really, David was also the ‘begotten son’ of God as we are told in Psalm 2.

??? You just told us God does not beget, and now you state "David was also begotten?


Since you don't believe Jesus was begotten by God, can you tell us why you believe David was also begotten, who also was begotten, and why you consider them begotten but not Jesus?

Or is Psalm 2 yet another "corrupted" bible verse?

Likewise, human beings do not lay eggs, if they do, then, they are not human beings!!

That's correct! Humans beings are not oviparous.

So a frog will always beget frog, and not a mouse.

Dogs will always beget dog, and not a cat.

Man will always beget man, and not a bird.

And God will beget _____________? and not anything else.

Your non-Trinitarian friends cannot give a logical answer to your fourth question (The only begotten Son of God is ______?) because that question is ridiculously ILLOGICAL to begin with as GOD DOES NOT BEGET!!

You just told us David was also begotten by God. I disagree with you on this, but it's hard to see why you would say David was begotten by God if God does not beget.

OK, so you think God’s Words in Isaiah 40:25 - “To whom will you compare Me? Or who is My equal?” says the Holy One” as nonsense. Got you!!

I think it much more likely you were unable to fill in a 4th answer to my query even with 3 prior answers provided. I also think you need to make up your mind about whether God begets or not.

Lastly, this is why I stated we cannot continue our discussion regarding scriptures. I have no idea if you accept Psalm 2:7 as scripture or if you consider it the result of "lying scribes", or if it somehow disagrees with your preconception of what scripture should and should not say.

It has been good talking with you.

 

[Oeste]

Hello, Oeste. Hope you're doing well tonight. Reading some of your posts, and wonder what you think about Matthew 28:18 which says, "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."
How do you feel about the statement that Jesus said all authority in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN to him?

Hi YoursTrue,

I am doing well, and pray you are doing the same or better!

As the Son of God, Jesus has authority because ultimately God has all authority. However, the Son of Man did not have this authority (otherwise there would be no point in Satan tempting him with such authority). At Matthew 28:18, the Son of Man has faithfully discharged his mission and is risen, so here Jesus is speaking as the Son of Man and as our mediator before God.

The Son of Man is Man, and the Son of God is God. This allows Jesus to serve as our mediator, as he is full God and fully man. This will sound a bit academic as it comes from a theologian, Dr. Daniel Whitby (1638–1726), but it might help explain:

“He to whom any office is duly committed, must have sufficient power and wisdom to discharge that office. Now to govern all things in heaven and earth belongs only to him who is the Lord and Maker of them, and therefore is known by this title, both in Scripture and by the heathen. To have power over death, and to be able to raise the dead, is to have that power which is proper to God alone: and to have power over the souls of men, and the knowledge of all hearts, belongs to God alone.” Our Lord, therefore, is invested with, and exercises this authority and power, although as the Son of man, yet not as a mere man, for as such it would have been impossible for him to exercise it, but as a man in whom dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily."​

In short, I see Jesus as having a dual nature, and speaking either as the Son of Man or as the Son of God.

 

[Oeste]

Jesus claims to be God in each Gospel multiple,multiple times..

Hi @Dimi95!

Absolutely correct!

My "Agreed!" was extremely limited and myopic and I should have clarified.

Oeste said:
Read the scripture. The Jews claimed Jesus was making himself to be God "...You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." That is the context.

Well, that’s what the JEWS claimed, NOT Jesus.

To clarify:

33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10)​

I am simply agreeing that as a "proof text" all this single verse tells us is that it was the Jews claiming "Jesus was making himself to be God" and not Jesus saying the same.

As you pointed out, Jesus most certainly makes the claim previously, when he states he is "in the Father" and that he and the Father are one, just not in the submitted, isolated, proof-texted verse proffered by the poster. In fact, Jesus had admonished the Jews, not for being mistaken, but for not believing:

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.​

Thank you for bring this to my and the readers attention. I should have taken a bit more time to clarify this "proof text". Reading in context is always preferable to hopping from text to text. The former gives us more gives us more of the author's actual intent, while the latter better suited to supporting dogma.

 

[YoursTrue]

Hi YoursTrue,

I am doing well, and pray you are doing the same or better!

As the Son of God, Jesus has authority because ultimately God has all authority. However, the Son of Man did not have this authority (otherwise there would be no point in Satan tempting him with such authority). At Matthew 28:18, the Son of Man has faithfully discharged his mission and is risen, so here Jesus is speaking as the Son of Man and as our mediator before God.

The Son of Man is Man, and the Son of God is God. This allows Jesus to serve as our mediator, as he is full God and fully man. This will sound a bit academic as it comes from a theologian, Dr. Daniel Whitby (1638–1726), but it might help explain:

“He to whom any office is duly committed, must have sufficient power and wisdom to discharge that office. Now to govern all things in heaven and earth belongs only to him who is the Lord and Maker of them, and therefore is known by this title, both in Scripture and by the heathen. To have power over death, and to be able to raise the dead, is to have that power which is proper to God alone: and to have power over the souls of men, and the knowledge of all hearts, belongs to God alone.” Our Lord, therefore, is invested with, and exercises this authority and power, although as the Son of man, yet not as a mere man, for as such it would have been impossible for him to exercise it, but as a man in whom dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily."​

In short, I see Jesus as having a dual nature, and speaking either as the Son of Man or as the Son of God.

You bring out some good points here. James 1:13 says, "Let no one, when he is tempted, say “I am being tempted by God”; for God feels no temptations to evil, and himself tempts nobody." Interesting perspective.

 

[YoursTrue]

You bring out some good points here. James 1:13 says, "Let no one, when he is tempted, say “I am being tempted by God”; for God feels no temptations to evil, and himself tempts nobody." Interesting perspective.

What is also interesting as you (@Oeste ) mention it, is that God in the gathering in heaven described in Job did not tell Satan to go away when he came to that meeting. Glad we're talking about it a little. Adds perspective.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
I think you are confused here – it is you who declare your dogma above the Words of God Almighty. I stand by, and will defend God Alm

How do you defend God Almighty?? By claiming Jesus is the only true God and true Savior when God Almighty has already declared, ‘“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5 and “I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11’???

​

Oeste said:​

No one claims the Old Testament is incomprehensible. The issue was whether the NT contradicts the Old, which it doesn’t. It reveals what was hidden in the Old.

Well, if it contradicts what God Almighty has declared of Himself in the OT - ‘“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5 and “I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11, then, YES, the NT contradicts the OT, no matter how you want to deny it.

Oeste said:
Absolutely! Ultimately, both the Old and New were inspired by the same author.

The ‘inspired’ scribes in Jeremiah’s time said the same thing, yet God Almighty said “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie”.
Hold on, maybe the scribes were inspired, but the pen was not!! LOL.

Oeste said:
They are 3 men, ONE team just as the triune God is 3 persons, ONE God.

ONE God is NOT made up of 3 persons, ONE God means GOD ALMIGHTY IS THE ABSOLUTE ONE SUPREME BEING, NOT made up of 3-persons nonsense!

Do you know what 'ABSOLUTE ONE' means? I doubt it.

Your definition of the trinity only confirm how far Trinitarians have strayed away from God Almighty and the teachings of Jesus, and that’s why I said the Trinitarians, unknowingly, have fallen into Satan’s trap.

Oeste said:
Matthew 7:24-27 tells us to build on a rock rather than sand, while Ephesians 2:20 tells us that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (our Old Testament), and that Christ is our chief cornerstone.
It's all there.

So?? Does that prove Jesus is God???

Oeste said:
Well Herod certainly didn't think so. The prophesy of a coming Messiah was so strong that he ordered all under the age of two to be slaughtered.

Why are you telling me about this barbaric episode again??

Oeste said:
Since it did not come from what your church teachers told you, I think we can certainly agree on this.
Thus, the only thing left is to determine if what the NT authors have told us is supported by evidence or the weight of the evidence which clearly it has.

Well, you can start by proving Jesus preached trinity in his lifetime on earth.

Oeste said:
Lastly, as Jesus said, if you don’t believe him, at least believe his works. He showed many wonders and yet many still do not believe.

Which again prove Jesus is NOT God as his works are all done in the Name of God Almighty and all the wonders he did was done by God Almighty through him – Jesus by himself can do nothing - it's all there in your scripture.

Oeste said:
I’m not sure where this “logical fact” you claim stems from. It's certainly not from scripture.

Well, you have yet to show me logical scriptural proofs that God begets, can you?

Oeste said:
To what point or avail?
You have already told us you believe our scripture is a mixture of truth and lies. If I show you scripture you will only allege it’s another lie.
In any event, you appear far more likely to believe Unitarians, so perhaps they will post this for you.

That’s one way to dodge a question. I take your response here as you do not have any logical nor scriptural evidence that God begets. OK.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
Agreed!

Great! So you agreed Jesus never claimed he is God, but it was the Jews who made that claim that he claimed to be God.

Oeste said:
But I’m not claiming Jesus stated he was God here. Neither am I claiming Jesus is denying he’s God as you are.
I’m stating Jesus neither affirms or denies he’s God in these passages, but is simply explaining to the Jews why he hadn’t blasphemed.
That's why the Jews picked up stones, and that's the charge Jesus had to address.

Well, how did Jesus explain to the Jews he hadn’t blasphemed?? You want to explain that???

Oeste said:
Your last sentence, highlighted in bold, is what I would refer to as a “preconception”.
I recommend approaching the NT without this preconception. Take the passenger seat and let the Spirit drive and guide.

LOL, how about YOU approach your scripture without the preconceived mindset that ‘Jesus is God’? Take the passenger seat and let the Spirit drive and guide.

Oeste said:
I see not contradiction with the OT and Hebrews 1:8.

Now, that is what I would say a “preconception”!

Oeste said:
This is a good example of how a preconception can lead the reader into nullifying the inspired text. The Jews already "knew" what the Messiah would be, so when Jesus arrived he was tossed.

The Jews already “knew” what?? That the Messiah would be God???
Now, this is a good example of how a preconception can lead the reader into reading something not there. For example, the man-made trinity is not in the scripture, but somehow, Trinitarians are told to ‘read’ the trinity in the scripture, and so, with a preconceived mindset, they did 'see' the trinity in the scripture.

Oeste said:
No, I simply believe Hebrews 1:8 to be inspired scripture, but I can understand why non-Christians would think otherwise.

'Inspired' text does not necessarily mean everything is perfect from start to finish. Inspiration can be subject to human interpretation, which may lead to misunderstandings and mistakes.
A religious text can be considered God-inspired initially, but with the passing of time and handled by many hands, its application can lead to varying interpretations, translations, and outcomes.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
Yes, the accusation was blasphemy. As the Jews saw it, the charge was warranted:
“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” John 10:33

Yes, the accusation was blasphemy because to claim oneself as God is blasphemy, BUT, Jesus NEVER claimed to be God, IT WAS THE JEWS WHO DID CLAIM JESUS HAD CLAIMED SO BECAUSE THEY MISUNDERSTOOD JESUS’ STATEMENT ‘I AND MY FATHER ARE ONE’ AS A CLAIM OF GODSHIP, WHICH IS NOT WHAT JESUS MEANT. Which part of that you cannot understand???

Oeste said:
The statement "The Father and I are one" is certainly a statement of deity. Remember, Jesus is not simply stating the Father is in him. He is stating that he is in the Father.

BS!
How logical is that when 7 chapters later in John 17:20-23, Jesus prayed to God to make his disciples be one as HE AND GOD ARE ONE which is a DIRECT REFERENCE to his words in John 10:30!

So, you think was Jesus praying to God to make his disciples deities too??

Oeste said:
You are a man @JerryMyers. When was the last time YOU were in the Father?
This was blasphemy as far as the Jews were concerned and it would be if he were not God. But Jesus doesn't tell them they were correct or incorrect. He simply explains why he hadn't blasphemed.

Yes, I am a man, BUT, being ‘IN the Father’ does NOT mean you ARE the Father.
And you still have NOT explained HOW Jesus told the Jews he hadn’t blasphemed.

Oeste said:
See above.

See WHAT?? There’s nothing above that explained HOW Jesus told the Jews he hadn’t blasphemed and saying nothing or something else is NOT an explanation!

Oeste said:
??? You just told us God does not beget, and now you state "David was also begotten?

I state??!! Since when did I become one of the scribes of the OT too??? I am merely quoting Psalm 2:7!! You do know the difference between 'making a statement' and 'quoting a statement', right??

Oeste said:
Since you don't believe Jesus was begotten by God, can you tell us why you believe David was also begotten, who also was begotten, and why you consider them begotten but not Jesus?
Or is Psalm 2 yet another "corrupted" bible verse?

You tell me, I am merely quoting Palm 2:7 to show you that in your scripture, Jesus is NOT the ONLY ‘begotten son’ of God.

Oeste said:
That's correct! Humans beings are not oviparous.
So a frog will always beget frog, and not a mouse.
Dogs will always beget dog, and not a cat.
Man will always beget man, and not a bird.
And God will beget _____________? and not anything else.

Are we STILL at this??!

For the umpteen times, God DOES NOT BEGET!!
Are you implying God Almighty is like a human being, a frog, or a dog?? God forbids!

And where in your scripture states God beget???

Oeste said:
You just told us David was also begotten by God. I disagree with you on this, but it's hard to see why you would say David was begotten by God if God does not beget.

Psalm 2:7 told you, NOT me. You disagreed with Psalm 2:7??

Oeste said:
I think it much more likely you were unable to fill in a 4th answer to my query even with 3 prior answers provided. I also think you need to make up your mind about whether God begets or not.

Don't flatter yourself.
Your 4th question ‘And God will beget _____________? is ridiculously illogical that it takes an equally ridiculously, illogical man to answer, and I am NOT ridiculously illogical like you.

Your 4th question is as ridiculously illogical as asking, “How much does a purple elephant weigh?” which is a ridiculously illogical question because purple elephants do NOT exist, making it impossible to answer.

Oeste said:
Lastly, this is why I stated we cannot continue our discussion regarding scriptures. I have no idea if you accept Psalm 2:7 as scripture or if you consider it the result of "lying scribes", or if it somehow disagrees with your preconception of what scripture should and should not say.
It has been good talking with you.

Of course, I accept Psalm 2:7 as scripture because IT IS IN THE SCRIPTURE!
What I don’t accept are writings that are NOT in the scripture BUT are written to tailor-fit certain 'beliefs' INTO the scripture.

Yup, it has been nice talking to you too. Stay safe.

 

[JerryMyers]

Dimi95 said:
Jesus claims to be God in each Gospel multiple,multiple times..
Oeste said:
Hi @Dimi95!
Absolutely correct!
My "Agreed!" was extremely limited and myopic and I should have clarified.

Maybe one of you wants to quote those passages where ‘Jesus claims to be God in each Gospel multiple, multiple times..’. Anyone??

Oeste said:
To clarify:
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” (John 10)
I am simply agreeing that as a "proof text" all this single verse tells us is that it was the Jews claiming "Jesus was making himself to be God" and not Jesus saying the same.

Right! In other words, Jesus NEVER claimed to be God!

Oeste said:
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

<quote> ‘but you do not believe.’
Question is - believe in what?? Believe he’s God??! Don’t be delusional!
The following verses ‘The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep’ tells us Jesus was NOT telling the Jews he’s God.

Why would Jesus say the works he do IN HIS FATHER’S NAME TESTIFY ABOUT HIM if he’s GOD??? The answer is simple - because he's NOT God, but he's doing the works in the name of his GOD!

Oeste said:
Reading in context is always preferable to hopping from text to text. The former gives us more gives us more of the author's actual intent, while the latter better suited to supporting dogma.

Yes, but the problem is – you are NOT reading in context at all, you are just cherry-picking verses and tailor-fitting your preconception into the scripture.

A good example is how you understand John 10:30 – ‘I and my Father are one’. To understand John 10:30 in its proper context is to read John 10:30 with John 17:20-23.

 

[Oeste]

How do you defend God Almighty?? By claiming Jesus is the only true God and true Savior when God Almighty has already declared, ‘“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5 and “I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11’???

Everything you need to know is right there in Isaiah 43:11. We have but one God, one Lord, one Savior. You deny Jesus is God. Do you also deny Jesus is Lord? That he is Savior? That there is no Savior apart from God?

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Deu 6:4

And there's the rub @JerryMyers. Unless you can confess that the NT teaches Jesus is Lord, or at least Jesus is Savior, I see no point in further discussion as you cherry pick which verses you believe, and which verses are gibberish.

Well, if it contradicts what God Almighty has declared of Himself in the OT - ‘“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5 and “I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11, then, YES, the NT contradicts the OT, no matter how you want to deny it.

Then it's a good thing the NT doesn't contradict the Old. As I've already explained, the NT contradicts quite a bit of dogma, but it doesn't contradict the OT.

Oeste said:
Absolutely! Ultimately, both the Old and New were inspired by the same author.

The ‘inspired’ scribes in Jeremiah’s time said the same thing, yet God Almighty said “How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie”.
Hold on, maybe the scribes were inspired, but the pen was not!! LOL.

All scripture is inspired by God, and not inspired by the scribes. They are moved by the Holy Spirit.

The scribes described here are copyists, not biblical authors. Jesus railed against the scribes, remember? But he pronounced all scripture good.

I recommend a good, reputable seminary class on Jesus, the scribes and Judaic law as this sound little more than another one of those dubious internet conspiracy theories.

Oeste said:
They are 3 men, ONE team just as the triune God is 3 persons, ONE God.

ONE God is NOT made up of 3 persons, ONE God means GOD ALMIGHTY IS THE ABSOLUTE ONE SUPREME BEING, NOT made up of 3-persons nonsense!

So you say, while scripture says otherwise. Unless, of course, we simply throw out certain scriptures. Got it!

Trinitarians rely heavily on the NT more than the OT. There’s nothing in the OT that UNEQUIVOCALLY points to Jesus Christ. Your understanding of ‘The promises of the Old culminate in Christ’ came from what the NT authors/translators and your church preachers told you.

Matthew 7:24-27 tells us to build on a rock rather than sand, while Ephesians 2:20 tells us that the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (our Old Testament), and that Christ is our chief cornerstone.

It's all there.

So?? Does that prove Jesus is God???

It shows what was stated: that the promises of the Old culminate in Christ.

Do you know what 'ABSOLUTE ONE' means?

Absolutely!

Thus, the only thing left is to determine if what the NT authors have told us is supported by evidence or the weight of the evidence which clearly it has.

Well, you can start by proving Jesus preached trinity in his lifetime on earth.

Why?

Virtually every Christian on the planet already believes Jesus is God so I see no need to do so. At best, I can give you scriptural reasons why this is so, but not if you've already dismissed wide scathes of scripture. Also, you have given us little if any reason to believe otherwise.

So quoting more scriptures will not convince you. The Father stating Jesus is God is insufficient for you. You simply declare any such scripture is bogus. So if the Father and inspired writers are insufficient, anything anyone says against your preconceived premise will be woefully deficient as well.

Also, the Christians faith does not require "proof" anymore than "blind faith". It simply requires faith and reason. Without faith, no amount of reason will prove anything to you. Unitarians and Trinitarians share the same faith (Christ), so we attempt to reason with each other. Our reason is based on the evidence of scripture and our faith on Christ, hence we have "Scriptural Debates" and not "Scriptural Truth and Lies".

You profess no such faith in the evidence Christians offer, so producing more scripture subject to your unvetted, variable, and prior determination of personal authenticity is a rather futile exercise for anyone on this forum to engage in.

As such, I would suggest posting or sourcing exactly those scriptures you believe, those scriptures you do not believe, and those scriptures you claim "suspect", giving reasonable evidence or basis for each categorized determination. This way, no one wastes time quoting or attempting to reason from a scripture you later dismiss or claim is suspect or incorrect.

For example:

​

Of course, I accept Psalm 2:7 as scripture because IT IS IN THE SCRIPTURE!​

What I don’t accept are writings that are NOT in the scripture BUT are written to tailor-fit certain 'beliefs' INTO the scripture.​

I'm sure you, your church or temple has posted which biblical writings are or are not appropriately found in scripture, and/or which ones have been "tailored fit" or fine tuned, and thus of limited or suspicious value.

After all, if other people have convinced you, who knows? Maybe they'll convince our Christian readers here as well. Let us know how they determined which verse, chapter and/or books are bogus. You can start with the lying scribes in Jeremiah.

I'm happy to post rebuttals, but for an honest, fruitful discussion with Christians on the board, it may be necessary to start there.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
Everything you need to know is right there in Isaiah 43:11.
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Deu 6:4

Sure. What you can learn from Isaiah 43:11 and Deut. 6:4 is that God Almighty is the INDIVISIBLE ABSOLUTE ONE GOD!! Unfortunately, Trinitarians think the One and Only God is divisible by three persons!!

Oeste said:
You deny Jesus is God.

YES, without any hesitation, Jesus IS NOT GOD!

Oeste said:
Do you also deny Jesus is Lord? That he is Savior? That there is no Savior apart from God?

So you are saying if God is Lord and Savior, and Jesus too is called ‘L/lord and S/savior’, therefore, God is equa to Jesus, right?

Ahhh….. giving me the good old ‘if A=B, B=C, therefore A=C’ formula. LOL!

Sorry to disappoint you, my friend, that formula is NOT always true as its truth depends on the nature of the elements A, B, and C.
For instance, if A= an apple, B= a fruit, and C=an orange, then A=B, and B=C, but, A is NOT equal to C!
I think my wife will ask me to sleep on the couch if she asked me to get apples and I bring back oranges and tell her they are the same!

Likewise, God Almighty is the ONLY ONE Lord God and Savior of the world, while Jesus is L/lord man and S/savior to his people, and that too, if they listen to his teaching.

Kings, landlords, court magistrates, etc, are called ‘L/lords’ too, and those who saved others from death or other catastrophic situations are called S/saviors too, but that does not make them THE God and/or THE Savior of the world.

Oeste said:
And there's the rub @JerryMyers. Unless you can confess that the NT teaches Jesus is Lord, or at least Jesus is Savior, I see no point in further discussion as you cherry pick which verses you believe, and which verses are gibberish.

Well, I can tell you right now your comment here is gibberish dogmatic nonsense. There's a huge difference between ‘Lord God’ and ‘L/lord Jesus’, and between God the ONLY Savior of the world, and Jesus the savior of his people in his time. Read what Jesus said of himself in your scripture, NOT what your preachers and others said.

Here's the thing - If you cannot tell them apart, I am afraid you are drifting AWAY from the ONE and ONLY God Almighty, which is exactly what Satan wants you to do.

Oeste said:
Then it's a good thing the NT doesn't contradict the Old. As I've already explained, the NT contradicts quite a bit of dogma, but it doesn't contradict the OT.

Then, let me say it one more time - if it contradicts what God Almighty has declared of Himself in the OT - ‘“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5 and “I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11, then, YES, the NT contradicts the OT, no matter how you want to deny it.


Oeste said:
All scripture is inspired by God, and not inspired by the scribes. They are moved by the Holy Spirit.

When did I ever say the scripture was “inspired by the scribes”??? Do you want to point that out?? Do Trinitarians like you always see things that are not there just like how you ‘see’ the trinity which is NOT in the scripture???

Oeste said:
Jesus railed against the scribes, remember? But he pronounced all scripture good.

Well, maybe he did pronounce all scriptures are good, but, he could not be referring to the NT as the NT was written long after he's gone! Jesus never knew the NT, let alone about the Trinity!

Oeste said:
So you say, while scripture says otherwise. Unless, of course, we simply throw out certain scriptures. Got it!

Do you want to point out to me which scripture verse/passage said the One God is made up of 3 persons??

Oeste said:
It shows what was stated: that the promises of the Old culminate in Christ.

The coming of a Messiah, maybe, but nothing in the OT points to Jesus is God.

Oeste said:
Absolutely!

Great! Then tell us what ABSOLUTE ONE GOD is, to your understanding. Now, don’t dodge this too, ya?

Oeste said:
Thus, the only thing left is to determine if what the NT authors have told us is supported by evidence or the weight of the evidence which clearly it has.

Well, you can start by proving Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth.

Oeste said:
Why?
Virtually every Christian on the planet already believes Jesus is God so I see no need to do so. At best, I can give you scriptural reasons why this is so, but not if you've already dismissed wide scathes of scripture. Also, you have given us little if any reason to believe otherwise.
So quoting more scriptures will not convince you. The Father stating Jesus is God is insufficient for you. You simply declare any such scripture is bogus. So if the Father and inspired writers are insufficient, anything anyone says against your preconceived premise will be woefully deficient as well.
Also, the Christians faith does not require "proof" anymore than "blind faith". It simply requires faith and reason. Without faith, no amount of reason will prove anything to you. Unitarians and Trinitarians share the same faith (Christ), so we attempt to reason with each other. Our reason is based on the evidence of scripture and our faith on Christ, hence we have "Scriptural Debates" and not "Scriptural Truth and Lies".
You profess no such faith in the evidence Christians offer, so producing more scripture subject to your unvetted, variable, and prior determination of personal authenticity is a rather futile exercise for anyone on this forum to engage in.
As such, I would suggest posting or sourcing exactly those scriptures you believe, those scriptures you do not believe, and those scriptures you claim "suspect", giving reasonable evidence or basis for each categorized determination. This way, no one wastes time quoting or attempting to reason from a scripture you later dismiss or claim is suspect or incorrect.

Oh come on @Oeste, stop giving us the 'run-arounds' for once!
It’s a very simple question – can you prove Jesus preached trinity in his lifetime on earth?? Can you or can’t you??

Oeste said:
Let us know how they determined which verse, chapter and/or books are bogus. You can start with the lying scribes in Jeremiah.
I'm happy to post rebuttals, but for an honest, fruitful discussion with Christians on the board, it may be necessary to start there.

Why do you keep repeating topics I have responded to? Are you running out of materials??

And for an honest, fruitful discussion with you or other Trinitarians on the board, it would be logical if you could prove Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth.
After all, the OP thread title is ‘Jesus is not God’, and we know the foundation of the trinity can only stand if, and only IF Jesus is God. So, if you CAN prove, from the scripture, that Jesus preached the trinity, NOT only have you proven that, but you would have proven Jesus is God too - isn't that what you want to prove to the non-Trinitarians here? So, give your best shot!

 

[Oeste]

Oeste said:
Everything you need to know is right there in Isaiah 43:11.
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Deu 6:4

Sure. What you can learn from Isaiah 43:11 and Deut. 6:4 is that God Almighty is the INDIVISIBLE ABSOLUTE ONE GOD!! Unfortunately, Trinitarians think the One and Only God is divisible by three persons!!

Divisible??! Where on earth did you read this? On the internet??

Each person is FULLY God. There is no "division" in the Trinity.

We've been through this. You have ONE pair of shoes If you have unmatched shoes, there is no pair of shoes. They are not biune, but separate and distinct. You will have 2 shoes, or Bitheism.

Likewise we have ONE triune God. If you divide one triune God into threes, there is no triune God. You will have 3 persons, or Tritheism.

Bitheism is no more biune than Tritheism is triune. This should not be a difficult concept for you to grasp, but for some it is. Terrence Howard comes to mind.

Here's a thought experiment to put this in perspective and possibly explain what triune does and does not mean.

You have a bag of apples. You want to demonstrate 1+1+1 to the class. How many apples will you extract from the bag?

Now you want to demonstrate multiplication by pulling out apples and demonstrating them to the class.

1x1: How many apples will you pull out? How many times will you do so?
1x2: How many apples will you pull out? How many times will you do so?
1x3: How many apples will you pull out? How may times will you do so?
1x1x1: How many apples will you pull out? How man times will you do so?

During this demonstration, did you tell the class they will need to divide any of the apples?

If not, then why tell us the triune God is divisible???

Oeste said:
Do you also deny Jesus is Lord? That he is Savior? That there is no Savior apart from God?

So you are saying if God is Lord and Savior, and Jesus too is called ‘L/lord and S/savior’, therefore, God is equa to Jesus, right?

I am saying Jesus is God. I am also saying Jesus is Lord. I am also saying Jesus is Savior. I am also saying we have ONE God, ONE LORD, and ONE Savior, and there is NO God, NO Lord, and NO Savior apart from God, either with a SMALL or CAPITAL letter because there WERE NO MIXED CASE LETTERS at the time of the author's writing.

I have no idea what you are saying because I am waiting for you to answer. Is Jesus Lord? Is he Savior? Is he "apart from God"?

Ahhh….. giving me the good old ‘if A=B, B=C, therefore A=C’ formula. LOL!

No, you gave yourself this formula. It did not come from me.

Sorry to disappoint you, my friend, that formula is NOT always true as its truth depends on the nature of the elements A, B, and C.

Oh no @JerryMyers, I am not disappointed at all! I am just wondering why you offer it to readers.

But since it's here, let's follow your argument along.

For instance, if A= an apple,

Okay, I think I've got it! If Jesus is the apple,...

B= a fruit,

Alright, "B", let's say "B" is God

and C=an orange,

I'm catching on! So C here represents the Father.

then A=B, and B=C,

Well let's stretch this furthe and say A=B just as B=A, and B=C just as C=B! I don't think anyone will argue with that.

but, A is NOT equal to C!

Absolutely!

An apple is no more an orange (though both are fruit), anymore than Jesus is the Father, (though both are God).
This is exactly what Trinitarians have been espousing for the last 2000 years.

This is a great point to raise Jerry Myers, but I thought you were railing against rather than for the Trinity.

I think my wife will ask me to sleep on the couch if she asked me to get apples and I bring back oranges and tell her they are the same!

Lol, well, they could be if your wife is modalist in her Christology. Then the apple and orange will be "manifestations" of the one true fruit, just as Jesus and the Spirit, to them, are "manifestations" of the one true God.

Likewise, God Almighty is the ONLY ONE Lord God and Savior of the world, while Jesus is L/lord man and S/savior to his people, and that too, if they listen to his teaching.

Well this is confusing!

So God almighty is the Only Lord God and Savior of the world, while Jesus is Lord and Savior to "his people"? So the world has one Lord God and Savior and Jesus' people have another!

Who and where are these people of Jesus if not in the world? It seems to me that if Jesus' people are on the same planet we are, then God Almighty is their Lord God and Savior unless the people of Jesus are somewhere else.

This is going to be a real bummer to the millions upon millions of Christians in the world. I mean it's great God is our Lord and Savior, but to hear it's was never Christ all along is pretty disheartening.

Did this harsh teaching come from the Bahaullah himself, or is this a personal gleaning you extracted from scripture?

Kings, landlords, court magistrates, etc, are called ‘L/lords’ too, and those who saved others from death or other catastrophic situations are called S/saviors too, but that does not make them THE God and/or THE Savior of the world.

Who is claiming Kings and landlords are THE God and/or THE Savior of the world? Give us there names Jerry Myers and we can slay this heresy together!

Oeste said:
And there's the rub @JerryMyers. Unless you can confess that the NT teaches Jesus is Lord, or at least Jesus is Savior, I see no point in further discussion as you cherry pick which verses you believe, and which verses are gibberish.

Well, I can tell you right now your comment here is gibberish dogmatic nonsense.

That wasn't the question, nor is it an answer to one. I see no point in further discussion as you cherry pick which verses you believe, and which verses are gibberish. This is either nonsense from you, the Baháʼu'lláh or your "Universal House o Justice".

Oeste said:
Then it's a good thing the NT doesn't contradict the Old. As I've already explained, the NT contradicts quite a bit of dogma, but it doesn't contradict the OT.

Then, let me say it one more time - if it contradicts what God Almighty has declared of Himself in the OT - ‘“I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God” – Isaiah 45:5 and “I, even I, am the LORD, and APART FROM ME there is NO SAVIOR.” - Isaiah 43:11, then, YES, the NT contradicts the OT, no matter how you want to deny it.

Somehow I think it far more likely you contradict NT scripture than it is that the NT contradicts the Old.

Here's the thing - If you cannot tell them apart,

No worries. Our Christology is rather well formed.

I am afraid you are drifting AWAY from the ONE and ONLY God Almighty, which is exactly what Satan wants you to do.

Let me get this straight...if we agree Jesus is not God, much like non-Christian like yourself believe, just as the non-religious insist, exactly as the atheists proclaim...this will STOP us from drifting AWAY from God and doing the will of Satan??

Wow! I never knew the skeptics, non-religious, atheists, or non-Christians cared as much for our spiritual souls! I had to take a rest to recover on that one. You may all sing in the same choir Jerry Myers but I'm afraid Trinitarians have no intention on joining you. We'll continue to give praise and worship to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Yes, we place a lot of trust in Christ and his finished works, but it's not a mistrust I worry about. Thank you for your concern though.

 

[Oeste]

After all, the OP thread title is ‘Jesus is not God’,

Ah! This is where you got confused.

As you stated, this thread is "Jesus is not God" and not "Jesus is God". So the onus is on the OP to show or evidence this, not on Trinitarians to disprove it.

Also, as I've already shown, it is NOT simply Trinitarians who proclaim Jesus is God. Many Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals proclaim it also. They simply don't proclaim the Trinity.

and we know the foundation of the trinity can only stand if, and only IF Jesus is God.

Then we've done our job. The Trinity still stands and thrives.

As for those who agree with the OP, they have a lot of work to do. We'll know they've been successful when we see the numbers reverse for non-Trinitarian and Trinitarian believers.

So, if you CAN prove, from the scripture, that Jesus preached the trinity, NOT only have you proven that, but you would have proven Jesus is God too - isn't that what you want to prove to the non-Trinitarians here?

No, I came to this thread to discuss the Trinity doctrine and perhaps be impressed by reasoned arguments against it. But I've seen nothing new, and nothing that hasn't been presented previously. In this respect, the Bahai are just another, relatively new group in a long line of anti-Trinitarian assailants that have unsuccessfully attacked the doctrines of the historic, Orthodox church.

So, give your best shot!

Satan has already taken his, but he swung and missed at Nicea.

Jesus is God and the teaching is here to stay.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
Divisible??! Where on earth did you read this? On the internet??
Each person is FULLY God. There is no "division" in the Trinity.

No division in the trinity??! Where on earth did you read this? You are told so?? On the internet??

Then again, even the internet will tell you any term with the prefix ‘tri’ means three or having a combination of three!! A trio, a triplet, a trilogy, and of course triune/trinity all mean having a combination of three, and any combination of three ARE divisible by three!!

If the trinity is indivisible, then Jesus as a part of the trinity, CANNOT coexist with God Almighty at the same time and space!!
So how do the trinitarians go around this??? They claim Jesus is full man and full God!! So, when Jesus placed his head on the ground and prayed to God Almighty, the trinitarians will say ‘NO, Jesus was not praying to himself, when he was praying to God, he already switched himself from God-mode to full man-mode’!!! Your dogmatic trinity belief is clouding your intellect that you can’t think logically!

Oeste said:
I am saying Jesus is God. I am also saying Jesus is Lord. I am also saying Jesus is Savior. I am also saying we have ONE God, ONE LORD, and ONE Savior, and there is NO God, NO Lord, and NO Savior apart from God, either with a SMALL or CAPITAL letter because there WERE NO MIXED CASE LETTERS at the time of the author's writing.
I have no idea what you are saying because I am waiting for you to answer. Is Jesus Lord? Is he Savior? Is he "apart from God"?

I have already told you. and you keep repeating the questions. Let me say it again –

God Almighty is Lord God, Jesus is L/lord man,
God Almighty is THE Savior of the world, Jesus is S/savior to the people he was sent to,
And yes, apart from God there’s no God, which means Jesus IS NOT God!

Oeste said:
But since it's here, let's follow your argument along.
Okay, I think I've got it! If Jesus is the apple,...
Alright, "B", let's say "B" is God
I'm catching on! So C here represents the Father.
Well let's stretch this furthe and say A=B just as B=A, and B=C just as C=B! I don't think anyone will argue with that.
An apple is no more an orange (though both are fruit), anymore than Jesus is the Father, (though both are God).
This is exactly what Trinitarians have been espousing for the last 2000 years.
This is a great point to raise Jerry Myers, but I thought you were railing against rather than for the Trinity.

You can be smarter than that, but it is what it is.

Your ‘A= Jesus, B= God, C= the Father’ is only applicable to the Trinitarians as A is never equal to B nor C (unless you are a trinitarian) so, your attempt to tailor-fit your man-made trinity into that transitivity is futile. So, that's not a great point to raise, @Oeste.

Try again, only this time try to make it applicable universally, NOT just to the Trinitarians, unless you are trying to convince trinitarians and not the non-trinitarians, which of course, makes no sense. Come to think of it, none of your comments make sense!!

Oeste said:
Then the apple and orange will be "manifestations" of the one true fruit, just as Jesus and the Spirit, to them, are "manifestations" of the one true God.

What?? ‘Then the apple and orange will be "manifestations" of the one true fruit’??! LOL, where did that come from?? Your preachers??

Oeste said:
So God almighty is the Only Lord God and Savior of the world, while Jesus is Lord and Savior to "his people"? So the world has one Lord God and Savior and Jesus' people have another!
Who and where are these people of Jesus if not in the world? It seems to me that if Jesus' people are on the same planet we are, then God Almighty is their Lord God and Savior unless the people of Jesus are somewhere else.

Let me ask you a simple question – who do you think was the savior to the people in Abraham, Noah, and Moses’ times respectively?? Are those people NOT the people of Abraham, Noah, and Moses respectively?? Or do you think those people do not exist as Jesus was not created yet in the womb of the virgin Mary???

Oeste said:
This is going to be a real bummer to the millions upon millions of Christians in the world. I mean it's great God is our Lord and Savior, but to hear it's was never Christ all along is pretty disheartening.
Did this harsh teaching come from the Bahaullah himself, or is this a personal gleaning you extracted from scripture?

Yeah, I was wondering too where this harsh teaching that Jesus is God came from??? Definitely cannot be from God Almighty or His prophet Jesus as there’s nothing in the scripture about God Almighty or His prophet Jesus saying or implying that kind of nonsense!

This will be a good time for you to prove me wrong by showing me scripture verses/passages where God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus said or implied that Jesus is God.

Oeste said:
Who is claiming Kings and landlords are THE God and/or THE Savior of the world? Give us there names Jerry Myers and we can slay this heresy together!

Right, who’s claiming that??! I thought I clearly said, ‘... that does not mean they are THE God and/or THE Savior of the world’, didn’t I?? Are you having reading and understanding or focusing issues??

Oeste said:
That wasn't the question, nor is it an answer to one. I see no point in further discussion as you cherry pick which verses you believe, and which verses are gibberish. This is either nonsense from you, the Baháʼu'lláh or your "Universal House o Justice".

What gibberish nonsense are you talking?? Wanna fill me in here??

Oeste said:
Somehow I think it far more likely you contradict NT scripture than it is that the NT contradicts the Old.

Neither have you proven me wrong either. Can you prove me wrong by quoting words from Jesus and/or Words from God Almighty, NOT quoting NT verses that contradict the Words of God in the OT, can you??

Oeste said:
No worries. Our Christology is rather well formed.

How can it be well-formed if it cannot even prove that Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth??!

Oeste said:
Let me get this straight...if we agree Jesus is not God, much like non-Christian like yourself believe, just as the non-religious insist, exactly as the atheists proclaim...this will STOP us from drifting AWAY from God and doing the will of Satan??

That will be a good start. So, what did Jesus say when he was asked what is the most important commandment in the Law?? Was it one must believe he is God?? No, don’t think so…

Oeste said:
We'll continue to give praise and worship to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Yes, we place a lot of trust in Christ and his finished works, but it's not a mistrust I worry about. Thank you for your concern though.

Yup, Satan expects nothing less from you.

 

[JerryMyers]

Oeste said:
Ah! This is where you got confused.
As you stated, this thread is "Jesus is not God" and not "Jesus is God". So the onus is on the OP to show or evidence this, not on Trinitarians to disprove it.

The title is a statement for discussion, NOT an accusation, so the onus is on both the Trinitarians and the non-trinitarians to state their reasons for or against that statement.

Oeste said:
Also, as I've already shown, it is NOT simply Trinitarians who proclaim Jesus is God. Many Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals proclaim it also. They simply don't proclaim the Trinity.

It does not matter really who proclaimed Jesus is God or the trinity, it’s about whether Jesus is God or not, or whether the trinity came from God Almighty or it's man-made, that’s what we are discussing here.

Oeste said:
Then we've done our job. The Trinity still stands and thrives.

Highly likely that you have done Satan’s job, you just do not know it.

Oeste said:
As for those who agree with the OP, they have a lot of work to do. We'll know they've been successful when we see the numbers reverse for non-Trinitarian and Trinitarian believers.

You seem to have this perception that if the majority of the people believe ‘Jesus is God’, and the belief that ‘Jesus is NOT God’ came from the minority of the people, then, ‘Jesus is God’ must be the truth as the majority believe so, when the opposite is most likely to be the truth. A

As Jesus himself said -

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. Matt. 7: 13-14

Oeste said:
No, I came to this thread to discuss the Trinity doctrine and perhaps be impressed by reasoned arguments against it. But I've seen nothing new, and nothing that hasn't been presented previously.

Well, nothing new (or previous) came from you that anyone can be impressed. Your empty arguments for the trinity are just gibberish nonsense as you cannot even prove that Jesus (or for that matter any prophets of God) preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth.

Oeste said:
Satan has already taken his, but he swung and missed at Nicea.
Jesus is God and the teaching is here to stay.

On the contrary, Satan hit bullseye at Nicea!

Nicea is the ancient Greek city where the Nicene Creed, a statement of the Christian faith, was formulated during the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD convened by Emperor Constantine, and one of its agenda was to address the Arian ‘controversy’ on the nature of Jesus Christ. It was also here that the divinity of Jesus Christ was affirmed.

So, you can see why ‘Jesus is God/trinity’ was NEVER preached by Jesus nor did it come from God Almighty but the belief ‘Jesus is God/trinity’ came from the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, and that’s about 295 years gap between Jesus’ life on earth and the Council’s affirmation of Jesus’ divinity. Let me say it again, NOT God Almighty or HIS prophet Jesus’ affirmation, BUT it’s the Council’s affirmation.

So, yes, Satan hit bullseye and bigtime at Nicea in 325 AD because on that day, Satan successfully shifted your focus and worship from the One and Only God Almighty to His prophet, a man called Jesus Christ. Think about it.

 

[Oeste]

No division in the trinity??! Where on earth did you read this? You are told so?? On the internet??

Get a good, reputable book on the Trinity. I think you've read a bit too much on the internet.

Then again, even the internet will tell you any term with the prefix ‘tri’ means three or having a combination of three!! A trio, a triplet, a trilogy, and of course triune/trinity all mean having a combination of three, and any combination of three ARE divisible by three!!

What on earth does your division have to do with the Trinity???

This may come as a surprise, but ONE can be divided by two, three or four! But we don't divide one human into quarters, and we don't divide one God into thirds.

There are 3 "persons" in the Trinity and neither person is "divisible" into thirds.

There is also one God in the Trinity, and God is not divisible.

This is why God is Triune.

And no, Triune does not mean "divisible by three". It means He is indivisible.

I gave you a good example with the apples Jerry Myers. Had you simply completed the exercise you would have found there is no division when you multiply by one.

If the trinity is indivisible,

God is indivisible

then Jesus as a part of the trinity,

Jesus is fully, and not partly God.

CANNOT coexist with God Almighty at the same time and space!!

The Christian God is not contained by time and space, so Jesus' coexistence is not something anyone should worry about.

They claim Jesus is full man and full God!! So, when Jesus placed his head on the ground and prayed to God Almighty, the trinitarians will say ‘NO, Jesus was not praying to himself, when he was praying to God, he already switched himself from God-mode to full man-mode’!!! Your dogmatic trinity belief is clouding your intellect that you can’t think logically!

You might benefit from a good class on Christology. If Jesus had grasped out to seize his glory as God, his mission to die as Son of Man would have been over, he would have never been able to die.

"Switching" occurs with Modalism, not in the Trinity. Learn the difference and you will no longer confuse the two.

God Almighty is Lord God, Jesus is L/lord man,

There are no mixed case letters in early Hebrew, Aramaic, or Attic Greek.

You have two Lords here when scripture tells us there is only one God and Lord.

Remember, Jesus was NEVER made secular Lord by any earthly authority during his ministry.

Your ‘A= Jesus, B= God, C= the Father’ is only applicable to the Trinitarians as A is never equal to B nor C (unless you are a trinitarian) so, your attempt to tailor-fit your man-made trinity into that transitivity is futile. So, that's not a great point to raise, @Oeste.

But I didn't raise the point, remember? I just helped it along.

Try again, only this time try to make it applicable universally, NOT just to the Trinitarians, unless you are trying to convince trinitarians and not the non-trinitarians, which of course, makes no sense. Come to think of it, none of your comments make sense!!

Why would I incorporate heretical ideas into Christian theology?

That sounds more like a job for the Bahai. Don't get me wrong...if you want to take a shot at it, please go ahead. But I suspect you'll end up with a tangled mish mash that no Christian believes.

This will be a good time for you to prove me wrong by showing me scripture verses/passages where God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus said or implied that Jesus is God.

No need as there is nothing to show the OP was ever correct.

Come to think of it, none of your comments make sense!!

Preaching Christ crucified sometimes has that effect on people.

Oeste said:
Then the apple and orange will be "manifestations" of the one true fruit, just as Jesus and the Spirit, to them, are "manifestations" of the one true God.

What?? ‘Then the apple and orange will be "manifestations" of the one true fruit’??! LOL, where did that come from?? Your preachers??

No, as stated, from the Christology of Modalists.

Oeste said:
No worries. Our Christology is rather well formed.

How can it be well-formed if it cannot even prove that Jesus preached the trinity in his lifetime on earth??!

Look around. "The proof is in the pudding" is an old adage I think applicable here. 2 billion and counting.

Oeste said:
We'll continue to give praise and worship to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Yes, we place a lot of trust in Christ and his finished works, but it's not a mistrust I worry about. Thank you for your concern though.

Yup, Satan expects nothing less from you.

Thank you!