Jesus is not God

[YoursTrue]

If you don't understand it I cannot explain it any further. Pray for understanding!

Jesus made it perfectly clear that the Father is greater than he is. I don't know how many ways a person can twist that to mean Jesus is equal to the Father when he couldn't be clearer about saying that the Father is g-r-e-a-t-e-r than he is.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Jesus made it perfectly clear that the Father is greater than he is. I don't know how many ways a person can twist that to mean Jesus is equal to the Father when he couldn't be clearer about saying that the Father is g-r-e-a-t-e-r than he is.

I wouldn't have said this to you when I was still a Christian, but I'm saying it to you now because I no longer believe that my former Christian beliefs were more accurate than those of the Christians who believed differently about God, Jesus, and the Bible than I did. So here it goes... I'm sure you understand that it's perfectly fine for you to disagree with their preferred interpretation of the Bible and not believe in the Trinity. Not all Christians believe in the hypostatic union and the trinity doctrine. Personally, I ignore the ones who arrogantly accuse me of not understanding the Bible and not having spiritual discernment because I disagree with their personal Christian beliefs and preferred interpretation of the Bible. I give them all the consideration I think they deserve, which, of course, is none. I think it's obvious that some Christians enjoy bragging about having "spiritual discernment" to properly understand the Bible but accuse other Christians or non-Christians of not having it. However, what they seem to forget or purposefully ignore is the fact that many non-Christians were once devout Christians and are well-versed in the Bible. These non-Christians read it, studied it, and prayed for spiritual guidance when they were Christians, just as I did (read my prior post here). We didn't forget what we had learned when we renounced our Christian faith. We retained this knowledge and can now challenge judgmental Christians who smugly accuse us of not understanding the Bible because we're no longer Christians or we never properly understood it when we were Christians. I can see now how wrong I was to accuse JWs and other Christians of not having the "right Christian beliefs" because they disagreed with mine and my evangelical interpretation of the Bible. I acknowledge the depth of damage I did by converting people to evangelical Christianity, which is what I believed. To be honest, I regret all the years I was a street preacher and evangelism team leader, as well as all of the years I was a devout Christian. But I suppose we all live and learn, and hopefully we learn from our mistakes. Anyway, I wish you peace, YoursTrue.

 

[YoursTrue]

I wouldn't have said this to you when I was still a Christian, but I'm saying it to you now because I no longer believe that my former Christian beliefs were more accurate than those of the Christians who believed differently about God, Jesus, and the Bible than I did. So here it goes... I'm sure you understand that it's perfectly fine for you to disagree with their preferred interpretation of the Bible and not believe in the Trinity. Not all Christians believe in the hypostatic union and the trinity doctrine. Personally, I ignore the ones who arrogantly accuse me of not understanding the Bible and not having spiritual discernment because I disagree with their personal Christian beliefs and preferred interpretation of the Bible. I give them all the consideration I think they deserve, which, of course, is none. I think it's obvious that some Christians enjoy bragging about having "spiritual discernment" to properly understand the Bible but accuse other Christians or non-Christians of not having it. However, what they seem to forget or purposefully ignore is the fact that many non-Christians were once devout Christians and are well-versed in the Bible. These non-Christians read it, studied it, and prayed for spiritual guidance when they were Christians, just as I did (read my prior post here). We didn't forget what we had learned when we renounced our Christian faith. We retained this knowledge and can now challenge judgmental Christians who smugly accuse us of not understanding the Bible because we're no longer Christians or we never properly understood it when we were Christians. I can see now how wrong I was to accuse JWs and other Christians of not having the "right Christian beliefs" because ey disagreed with mine and my evangelical interpretation of the Bible. I acknowledge the depth of damage I did by converting people to evangelical Christianity, which is what I believed. To be honest, I regret all the years I was a street preacher and evangelism team leader, as well as all of the years I was a devout Christian. But I suppose we all live and learn, and hopefully we learn from our mistakes. Anyway, I wish you peace, YoursTrue.

Thank you. I hope the best for you also.

 

[YoursTrue]

Does “greater” mean unequal? Your boss may have a greater position than you, but you both are equal as human beings, aren’t you? Jesus always acknowledged and honored His Father’s position or role, as His own Father and own position as Son. I don’t think that indicates inequality or proves that the Son is not One with His Father in the Godhead.

I don't know how many ways a person can interpret the Son saying his Father is greater than he is. Jesus obviously thought his heavenly father was greater than himself, and he told his disciples that. Also he been given power and authority.

 

[YoursTrue]

I wouldn't have said this to you when I was still a Christian, but I'm saying it to you now because I no longer believe that my former Christian beliefs were more accurate than those of the Christians who believed differently about God, Jesus, and the Bible than I did. So here it goes... I'm sure you understand that it's perfectly fine for you to disagree with their preferred interpretation of the Bible and not believe in the Trinity. Not all Christians believe in the hypostatic union and the trinity doctrine. Personally, I ignore the ones who arrogantly accuse me of not understanding the Bible and not having spiritual discernment because I disagree with their personal Christian beliefs and preferred interpretation of the Bible. I give them all the consideration I think they deserve, which, of course, is none. I think it's obvious that some Christians enjoy bragging about having "spiritual discernment" to properly understand the Bible but accuse other Christians or non-Christians of not having it. However, what they seem to forget or purposefully ignore is the fact that many non-Christians were once devout Christians and are well-versed in the Bible. These non-Christians read it, studied it, and prayed for spiritual guidance when they were Christians, just as I did (read my prior post here). We didn't forget what we had learned when we renounced our Christian faith. We retained this knowledge and can now challenge judgmental Christians who smugly accuse us of not understanding the Bible because we're no longer Christians or we never properly understood it when we were Christians. I can see now how wrong I was to accuse JWs and other Christians of not having the "right Christian beliefs" because they disagreed with mine and my evangelical interpretation of the Bible. I acknowledge the depth of damage I did by converting people to evangelical Christianity, which is what I believed. To be honest, I regret all the years I was a street preacher and evangelism team leader, as well as all of the years I was a devout Christian. But I suppose we all live and learn, and hopefully we learn from our mistakes. Anyway, I wish you peace, YoursTrue.

As a side note, but pertinent, I once had a conversation with a man who said he was born again and going to heaven. He was a sexually immortal person and I asked him if he thought he would be performing the same types of actions in heaven. He said yes.

 

[jimb]

Jesus made it perfectly clear that the Father is greater than he is. I don't know how many ways a person can twist that to mean Jesus is equal to the Father when he couldn't be clearer about saying that the Father is g-r-e-a-t-e-r than he is.

Jesus said "if you have seen me, YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER". He also said, "I and the Father are one".

If you can't understand that ... it's not my problem!

 

[jimb]

I don't know how many ways a person can interpret the Son saying his Father is greater than he is. Jesus obviously thought his heavenly father was greater than himself, and he told his disciples that. Also he been given power and authority.

Is there something about "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" that you don't understand???

 

[YoursTrue]

Jesus said "if you have seen me, YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER". He also said, "I and the Father are one".

If you can't understand that ... it's not my problem!

Well, I feel badly for you that you really think Jesus IS the Father by what he said. ("I and the Father are one." How come he left out the holy spirit? Furthermore, you don't really believe that Jesus WAS the Father, or IS the Father, do you? (I hope not.) God cannot be killed. No part of God can die.

 

[YoursTrue]

Is there something about "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" that you don't understand???

Jesus perfectly represented the Father in speech and action. Yet the Father was still in heaven. The Father did not die. Jesus died.

 

[jimb]

Well, I feel badly for you that you really think Jesus IS the Father by what he said. ("I and the Father are one." How come he left out the holy spirit? Furthermore, you don't really believe that Jesus WAS the Father, or IS the Father, do you? (I hope not.) God cannot be killed. No part of God can die.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one".

I am giving up trying to get you to understand the Bible. Pray for understanding.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one".

I am giving up trying to get you to understand the Bible. Pray for understanding.

Jesus did not say "I am God the Father." Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus ever claim to be God. It was Christianity that made Jesus into God.

Jesus cannot be God because the Bible says God is omnipotent and omniscient, which Jesus wasn't, and God is not a man.
Moreover, God is spirit and spirit cannot die. Jesus died on the cross so we know Jesus cannot be God.

Jesus said "I and the Father are one" because:

Jesus was was a perfect mirror image of God's attributes.
Jesus perfectly represented the Father in words and deeds.
Jesus and the Father were One in purpose so Jesus did the will of the Father.

Jesus did not say "I am God the Father." Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus ever claim to be God. It was Christianity that made Jesus into God.

Jesus cannot be God because the Bible says God is omnipotent and omniscient, which Jesus wasn't, and God is not a man.
Moreover, God is spirit and God cannot die. Jesus died on the cross so we know Jesus cannot be God.

 

[Shaul]

If you don't understand it I cannot explain it any further. Pray for understanding!

The Christian New Testament says "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."(I Peter 3:15) You are failing to do so.

 

[YoursTrue]

Is there something about "if you have seen me you have seen the Father" that you don't understand???

Do you believe in evolution? Perhaps you can offer your thoughts on that on another thread... thanks.

 

[jimb]

The Christian New Testament says "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."(I Peter 3:15) You are failing to do so.

I am the one failing to give an answer? LOL! Your judgement of me shows exactly who you are.

 

[jimb]

Do you believe in evolution? Perhaps you can offer your thoughts on that on another thread... thanks.

Of course I accept evolution as a valid scientific theory. Organisms change over time as they adapt to changing environments.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your judgement of me shows exactly who you are.

I think you have that backwards.
Your judgment of @YoursTrue shows @Shaul and everyone else reading the posts exactly who you are.

Matthew 7 KJV
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

 

[blü 2]

Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

You were right the first time. While Jesus is never mentioned in the Tanakh, in the NT there are five versions of him ─ by Paul, and by each of the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

And all those five versions of Jesus expressly say they're NOT God, simply God's envoy, and never claim to be God. You can read a selection of some of the relevant texts >here<.

It's true there was pressure in the early Christian church to regard Jesus as a god early on, but the problem was how to do it, since the Father was clearly also God. Various solutions were rejected ─ God was not a corporation with three shareholders, not a corporation with a board of three, not a club with three members. Finally the Trinity doctrine evolved, where

"the one God exists as three persons and one substance".​

​

However, the manner in which that formulation works in practice is acknowledged to be "a mystery in the strict sense", and a mystery in the strict sense

"cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed."​

The problem with this is that EITHER each of the Father, Jesus and the Ghost has [his] own will, in which case there are three gods, not one, OR God has only one will, in which case there is only one god, who can appear in any of three manifestations.

Further problems with the Trinity doctrine are the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew thereby saying on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" And each of the four gospel Jesuses, in the garden scene at the time of the Last Supper praying, "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me."

 

[jimb]

You were right the first time. While Jesus is never mentioned in the Tanakh, in the NT there are five versions of him ─ by Paul, and by each of the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

And all those five versions of Jesus expressly say they're NOT God, simply God's envoy, and never claim to be God. You can read a selection of some of the relevant texts >here<.

It's true there was pressure in the early Christian church to regard Jesus as a god early on, but the problem was how to do it, since the Father was clearly also God. Various solutions were rejected ─ God was not a corporation with three shareholders, not a corporation with a board of three, not a club with three members. Finally the Trinity doctrine evolved, where

"the one God exists as three persons and one substance".​

​

However, the manner in which that formulation works in practice is acknowledged to be "a mystery in the strict sense", and a mystery in the strict sense

"cannot be known by unaided human reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed."​

The problem with this is that EITHER each of the Father, Jesus and the Ghost has [his] own will, in which case there are three gods, not one, OR God has only one will, in which case there is only one god, who can appear in any of three manifestations.

Further problems with the Trinity doctrine are the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew thereby saying on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" And each of the four gospel Jesuses, in the garden scene at the time of the Last Supper praying, "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me."

Regarding your statement that the gospels say that Jesus is not God... there are several instances where that simply isn't the case. For example, John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. There are others also... John 10:30, "I and the Father are one.” John 17:20-21, "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." John 14:9, "Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" and there are others.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem with this is that EITHER each of the Father, Jesus and the Ghost has [his] own will, in which case there are three gods, not one, OR God has only one will, in which case there is only one god, who can appear in any of three manifestations.

According to my Baha'i beliefs. God is one and God has only one will.

To use an analogy, Baha'is believe that:

God is like the sun..
The Holy Spirit is the rays that emanate from the sun.
The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God.
God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus.
Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to humanity.

When Jesus brought the Holy Spirit, Jesus shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things.
Jesus was a Manifestation of God because He perfectly manifested the attributes of God.
The New Testament reveals the will of God for man for the Christian dispensation.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I think you have that backwards.
Your judgment of @YoursTrue shows @Shaul and everyone else reading the posts exactly who you are.

Matthew 7 KJV
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

I'm sure what you said to him will go in one ear and out the other, as he continues to preach his preferred Christian beliefs as if they were absolute truth.