Trailblazer
Veteran Member
He probably won't see what I wrote because he has me on Ignore.
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Jesus is not God
- Thread starter andy
- Start date
How is that a claim by Jesus that Jesus is God? I say there are no such claims, and instead there are express denials by all five versions of Jesus in the NT that he is God. And I gave you a link to some of those denials.
"The Father and I are one" is explained in John 17. John's God, like Paul's, but unlike the synoptics, is influenced by gnosticism, hence John's Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God, and created the material universe (regardless of Genesis 1). The gnostic god is immensely pure spirit, and as such, they believed, would never even think of creating a material (ie non-spiritual) universe. Hence the Jesuses of Paul and of John created the material universe in the role of the gnostic "demiurge" (craftsman). Meanwhile God continued to exist in exquisite purity at an incredibly remote distance from the material universe. In John 17, John's Jesus points out the manner in which he is one with God, and says that anyone who believes in him becomes one with him, Jesus, hence through Jesus, one with God.
(It may occur to you that the followers of Judaeism had always prayed directly to God with no need for an intermediary, and all five versions of Jesus were Jewish.)
As above.
Jesus is saying that since you've seen God's envoy ─ Jesus ─ you've seen Jesus' principal, God. As the author of John says at John 1:18, "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."
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Just your opinion. Instead, I believe what the Bible clearly says.
As a single example, you say "Meanwhile God continued to exist in exquisite purity at an incredibly remote distance from the material universe."
Here is what the Bible says...
"Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name." Genesis 2:19
and
"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”
He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” Genesis 3:8-13
QED
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YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The question remains -- please -- how is the Son equal to the Father (and the holy spirit if one believes it is a person) when the Son clearly says the Father is greater than he is and he is going to the Father? I would have had that question before I recognized Jesus is the Messiah. (Like the song goes -- Amazing Grace) -- the second verse goes like this:
"Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved;
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed!"
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The Word WAS God. It doesn't say he is God on earth equal to the Father and the Holy spirit but that he WAS God. Past tense.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I used to believe in the trinity doctrine when I was still a Christian, but I've since come to believe that it, like stories about Jesus, has pagan roots. Of course, this is what I believe, and others are free to disagree with me. I decided to reexamine the doctrine and conduct my own research to uncover its true origins after reading some very informative posts by another member. It's similar to how I decided to reject my Christian-indoctrinated beliefs about Satan and demons after reading posts by a Baháʼí. I know you, as a JW, don't believe in the trinity, so I thought you might be interested in reading these articles.
First article: Pagan Roots of the Trinity Doctrine
Second article: How Ancient Trinitarian Gods Influenced Adoption of the Trinity
Why don't you read the rest of my post before replying?
"I and the Father are one.” (present tense)
"... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." (present tense)
BTW, "He was God" is in the past continuous tense, not past tense.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Is not that in opposition to the Athanasian creed? Are you an Arian? Interesting.
This thread might be helpful if people want to put perspective of Imams (a) of Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s) to such words.
Gospels and Shiite hadiths match up.
This thread, I will be matching phrases from the Gospels with Shiite hadiths, in the sense Imams (a) say about themselves same thing Jesus (a) is quoted in the Gospels to emphasize on himself. I will try to match up the phrases with hadiths and provide an explanation of what is meant from...
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Within the Muslim's paradigm, he does not need any kind of sacrifice by default. IF he has sinned, he can ask for forgiveness and if the person is sincere, God will forgive him. If he is a hypocrite, God will know, and will not forgive.
Yes, God will forgive and we can also appeal to intercession of Mohammad (s). Sincere repentance + intercession and taking Mohammad (s) as interceder and means to God go together.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No matter how you look at it, it's like crystal clear to me. The Father is greater than (not equal to) the Son. He perfectly represented and spoke for his Father who was in heaven while he was on the earth. Jesus died. No part of God dies.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There are many different sects of what is termed as Christianity. Did you believe all the sects would be going to heaven? Were all those within the various sects "saved"?
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Growing up, I attended a Baptist church where I learned to believe in unconditional salvation. However, shortly before meeting my husband at the age of eighteen, I began attending a Nazarene church, which adheres to conditional salvation. And while I was training as a street preacher and evangelism team leader, I learned about Lordship salvation. When I was a Christian, I considered these three alternative salvation doctrines at different points in my life.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Thank you for your honest reply, I appreciate that very much. All I can say right now is that I was raised as a Jew, never thought that Jesus might be the Messiah because if all the problems going on in the world but one night I prayed to God to help me understand and Jehovah's Witnesses approached me about a Bible study with them. At first I resisted, but once I found out that since Jehovah's Witnesses do not go to war when the nations fight against each other, I realized these must be true Christians since they would follow Jesus to the death. Therefore I decided to study with them. And have never been sorry. I do thank you for your reply.
Then you believe EITHER that
all five versions of the Jesus were stating the actual position when each of them denied that he was God ─ as I showed you with relevant quotes ─ and Mark's and Matthew's Jesuses did NOT say "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" on the cross, or, each of the four gospel versions in the garden, pray to himself saying "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me."
OR
you think Paul was at best mistaken, at worst intending to deceive, when he said (1 Corinthians 8:6, my emphasis) "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."
and that the author of Matthew was likewise when he wrote ─
Matthew 20:23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
and
Matthew 24: 36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”
and that the author of Luke was likewise when he wrote ─
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”
and that the author of John was likewise when he wrote ─
John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me."
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “[...] go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
(and while we're with John, you'll no doubt have noted that this is incompatible with the Trinity notion ─
John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father but by me.”)
Let me be clear ─ I have no desire for the NT (or the Tanakh) to say anything in particular. If it had shown all five versions of Jesus saying they were God, I'd simply have noted that this is what the NT says. But in fact I note the opposite, that no concept of the Trinity is found in the NT. It becomes part of Christianity as a result of the politics of the early Christian church, though these aren't formalized until the 4th century. The politics are readily understood ─ Jesus, as the focus figure of Christianity, should have the highest status, at least as high as God's.
I was not attributing that view to the bible. I was pointing out that elements of gnosticism, such as that, are found in Paul and the gospel of John, but not in the synoptics (which take Mark as their template). Likewise the gnostic idea that Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe as gnosticism's 'demiurge' eg ─
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Colossians 1:16 For by [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
(which gives the rude finger to Genesis 1, of course.)
(As you doubtless know, the question whether Paul wrote Colossians or a follower of Paul's did, is disputed.)
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It's simple: you lack understanding.
Again...
"I and the Father are one.” (present tense)
"... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you." (present tense)
These are not confusing statements. Their meaning is plain and obvious.
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Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I'm sure you realize that you are entitled to your own personal religious beliefs, and you don't have to pay any attention to someone else telling you that you lack understanding of the Bible just because you don't agree with their preferred interpretation of the Bible and Christian beliefs. I'd ignore that false accusation if I were you. I think that you should also take their personal opinion of your religious beliefs with a grain of salt. It's irrelevant, in my opinion.
That is simply your personal opinion. I quoted directly from the Bible, so it is not "my personal interpretation". (I didn't write the Bible!)
You are entitled to your own personal religious beliefs, and I don't have to pay any attention to your opinion that I lack understanding of the Bible just because you don't agree with me.
I will take your advice and ignore your false accusation. I will take your personal opinion of my religious beliefs with a grain of salt, since it's irrelevant.
If you don't understand what the Bible says that is not my problem.
Your "explanation" is simply your personal opinion, so you are "the pot calling the kettle black".
Also, I pointed out the error in your stating that "God continued to exist in exquisite purity at an incredibly remote distance from the material universe". In Genesis 3, it says that God was walking in the "garden" of Eden and spoke with both Adam and Eve. So should I believe your mortal opinion or the Bible???
You did make one correct statement (probably by accident): "Jesus points out the manner in which he is one with God, and says that anyone who believes in him becomes one with him, Jesus, hence through Jesus, one with God."
BTW, I never heard of "Judaeism"?