Jesus is not God

[Betho_br]

4Q246, also known as the Son of God Text or the Aramaic Apocalypse, is one of the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran which is notable for an early messianic mention of a son of God. Wikipedia.

However, a more specific "Father-son" relationship is achieved through the gracious choice of the Father and the faithful obedience and service of the son, not through creation and certainly not through procreation. In this context, the following are some of the so-called "sons of God" in the Bible:

1. Heavenly beings (Job 1:6)
2. The chosen people of God (Exod. 4:22–23; Jer. 31:9, 20; Hos. 11:1; Rom. 8:14; 2 Cor. 6:18; Gal. 3:26; Heb. 2:10; Rev. 21:7)
3. Kings and rulers (2 Sam. 7:14; Ps. 2:7; 82:6; 89:26–27)
4. Pious and godly individuals (Matt. 5:9; Luke 6:35)

The "Son of God" does not bring peace or redemption. Instead, his arrival is preceded by tribulation and followed by war and violence...

This is not the "Jesus" preached for centuries.... But it is certainly the Jesus of the Gospels:

Matthew 10:34 King James Version
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

And this is exactly what this text says:

Revelation 6:4 King James Version
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Christianity naturally accepts the fact that the white Horse is representative of Jesus Christ, but taught that the red one was not...

But this color change is nothing new in the Hebrew Bible:

Isaiah 63:3 King James Version
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

In short, there is no difficulty in understanding that the Jews expected a Messiah, the Son of God and he would be worshiped as a Christological Elohim.

 

[Sargonski]

The biblical verses Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:24 record crucial moments during the crucifixion of Jesus. In Matthew 27:46, Jesus exclaims, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which is translated as "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" In Mark 15:24, it is mentioned that they cast lots to divide Jesus' garments. To understand these verses, it is essential to consider the broader context of the Scriptures.

Looking at Psalm 22, which Jesus quotes on the cross, we see that it begins with a profound lament where the psalmist expresses distress and a sense of abandonment. However, the psalm does not end in despair; on the contrary, as we progress through the verses, there is a change in tone.

In Psalm 22:24, we read, "For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him." This is a powerful statement highlighting God's faithfulness in responding to the cry of the afflicted. The context of the final verses of Psalm 22 (from verse 23 to 31) is one of praise and trust in God, acknowledging His sovereignty and providence.

Therefore, considering Jesus' quotation of Psalm 22 on the cross, we can interpret that He was expressing the deep agony of feeling separated from God in the midst of suffering. However, the complete understanding of Psalm 22, especially when read to the end, emphasizes that God did not forsake the afflicted, and the situation eventually turns into praise and trust in divine faithfulness.

Furthermore, the New Testament provides additional insights. In John 16:32, Jesus speaks to the disciples about the impending hour of the cross, stating, "Behold, the hour is coming, indeed it has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home, and will leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, for the Father is with me." This statement highlights God's constant presence even in the most challenging moments of Jesus' life.

Therefore, considering the broader context of the Scriptures, we can conclude that God did not abandon Jesus on the cross, and the quotation from Psalm 22 reflects Jesus' profound anguish but also points to confidence in divine faithfulness, as expressed in the subsequent verses of that Psalm and in other passages of the Christian Bible (New Testament).

This reminds me of the time when Jesus exclaims something to the effect that he speaks in parables because if he made it to easy then everyone .. even the Pharisees who he hated could be saved. It is interesting that you go into a diatribe about needing to see the whole picture (with which I agree) but copletely miss what is going on in the conversation.

Take what ever meaning out of the word "Forsaken" you like .. I agree it could mean many things however, one thing it does not mean is that Jesus is forsaking himself .. that Jesus is calling out to himself in some masochistic delerium .. forgetting his identity .. that he is actually God - THe Father" and could free himself in a blink of an eye and destroy all those nasty Romans and Pharasees.

He was expressing the deep agony of feeling separated from God in the midst of suffering.

What part of .. Jesus himself is not this God he is feeling separated from . as it is rather difficult to feel seperated from yourself in context.

Do you understand Brother Betho -- that Trinity Dogma was wrought by the hands of the Devil (the hands of Man) .. heed not man made dogma and hearken unto the Teachings of the Logos .. and not the teacings of the Demiurge. Do you know the difference friend ? as both are to be found in the Bible .. dressed up as teachings from "The Most High" God of Jesus .. whose Hallowed name you shall now tell us .. just to make sure you know the Father.

 

[jimb]

4Q246, also known as the Son of God Text or the Aramaic Apocalypse, is one of the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran which is notable for an early messianic mention of a son of God. Wikipedia.

However, a more specific "Father-son" relationship is achieved through the gracious choice of the Father and the faithful obedience and service of the son, not through creation and certainly not through procreation. In this context, the following are some of the so-called "sons of God" in the Bible:

1. Heavenly beings (Job 1:6)
2. The chosen people of God (Exod. 4:22–23; Jer. 31:9, 20; Hos. 11:1; Rom. 8:14; 2 Cor. 6:18; Gal. 3:26; Heb. 2:10; Rev. 21:7)
3. Kings and rulers (2 Sam. 7:14; Ps. 2:7; 82:6; 89:26–27)
4. Pious and godly individuals (Matt. 5:9; Luke 6:35)

The "Son of God" does not bring peace or redemption. Instead, his arrival is preceded by tribulation and followed by war and violence...

This is not the "Jesus" preached for centuries.... But it is certainly the Jesus of the Gospels:

Matthew 10:34 King James Version
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

And this is exactly what this text says:

Revelation 6:4 King James Version
And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Christianity naturally accepts the fact that the white Horse is representative of Jesus Christ, but taught that the red one was not...

But this color change is nothing new in the Hebrew Bible:

Isaiah 63:3 King James Version
I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.

In short, there is no difficulty in understanding that the Jews expected a Messiah, the Son of God and he would be worshiped as a Christological Elohim.

This sounds to me like someone who has seen act 1 of a play, left the theater, then tells everyone what the play is about.

Have you forgotten that Jesus, quoting the Old Testament, said "love your neighbor as yourself", then followed it with a parable about a "despised" Samaritan who not only cared for the wounded man (who was ignored by passing Jews), but made sure that his care was extended even in his absence? I believe that there can be no greater description of the effect that the Savior Jesus Christ has on our lives.

 

[Betho_br]

This reminds me of the time when Jesus exclaims something to the effect that he speaks in parables because if he made it to easy then everyone .. even the Pharisees who he hated could be saved. It is interesting that you go into a diatribe about needing to see the whole picture (with which I agree) but copletely miss what is going on in the conversation.

Take what ever meaning out of the word "Forsaken" you like .. I agree it could mean many things however, one thing it does not mean is that Jesus is forsaking himself .. that Jesus is calling out to himself in some masochistic delerium .. forgetting his identity .. that he is actually God - THe Father" and could free himself in a blink of an eye and destroy all those nasty Romans and Pharasees.

He was expressing the deep agony of feeling separated from God in the midst of suffering.

What part of .. Jesus himself is not this God he is feeling separated from . as it is rather difficult to feel seperated from yourself in context.

Do you understand Brother Betho -- that Trinity Dogma was wrought by the hands of the Devil (the hands of Man) .. heed not man made dogma and hearken unto the Teachings of the Logos .. and not the teacings of the Demiurge. Do you know the difference friend ? as both are to be found in the Bible .. dressed up as teachings from "The Most High" God of Jesus .. whose Hallowed name you shall now tell us .. just to make sure you know the Father.

Psalm 91:14
“Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my Name.

As I explained, the Doctrine of the Dogma of the Trinity is a philosophical development by the fathers of the Christian Catholic Church, based on triadic formulas (2 Corinthians 13:14, etc.). It is not explicitly attested in the Christian Bible. All cases have been reviewed, and many are confused simply because they do not know that the Greek "theos" (God/god) is interchangeable with "Elohim" (human magistrates, deities, etc.), except for a single very complex interpretation of John 14:10 (20) as noted by Basil the Great. I respect those who believe in this faith, and I also respect the Muslims who interpret it as only a temporary relationship of Jesus in the Father. As for the Logos, this is undeniable: Jesus is the Logos tabernacled in the flesh, the Word of God in the Quran, the Messiah born of the Virgin Mary. Jesus did not receive latria worship in the Christian Bible. There is no proof for such... All expressions of PROSKUNEO in relation to Jesus refer to veneration, the same as in 1 Samuel 25:23.

1 Samuel 25:23-24 King James Version
And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ***, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord ('ă·ḏō·nî אֲדֹנִ֖י ), upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid.

The Hebrew term 'ă·ḏō·nî אֲדֹנִ֖י is always used for human lords in the Hebrew Bible.

Matthew 28:6 King James Version
He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Matthew 28:6 Lexham English Bible
He is not here, for he has been raised, just as he said. Come, see the place where he was lying.

The accusation of the "conservators" is that the Alexandrian Manuscripts/Critical Text that give rise to the modern Bibles here steal from Him the title "THE LORD" (the God Jehovah, the total Owner-and-Controller of everything and everyone). However, when we analyze the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew from 1400 AD by Shem Tov ben-Izaak ben-Shaprut, we note that the word used is הָאָדוֹן ( 'ă·ḏō·nî אֲדֹנִ֖י)

אֵינֶנּוּ כָּאן שֶׁכְּבָר חָי כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמַר לָכֵן בּוֹאוּ וּרְאוּ הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר עָמַד שָׁם הָאָדוֹן

 

[Betho_br]

This sounds to me like someone who has seen act 1 of a play, left the theater, then tells everyone what the play is about.

Have you forgotten that Jesus, quoting the Old Testament, said "love your neighbor as yourself", then followed it with a parable about a "despised" Samaritan who not only cared for the wounded man (who was ignored by passing Jews), but made sure that his care was extended even in his absence? I believe that there can be no greater description of the effect that the Savior Jesus Christ has on our lives.

Matthew 8:12 Lexham English Bible
But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!”

Matthew 12:34 Lexham English Bible
Offspring of vipers! How are you able to say good things when you are evil? For from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Luke 15:4 King James Version
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

And so many other examples...

However, Jesus confirmed that true Jews achieve eternal life by fulfilling the commandments:

Matthew 19:16-17 King James Version
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Jesus

 

[Sargonski]

Psalm 91:14
“Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my Name.

As I explained, the Doctrine of the Dogma of the Trinity is a philosophical development by the fathers of the Christian Catholic Church, based on triadic formulas (2 Corinthians 13:14, etc.). It is not explicitly attested in the Christian Bible. All cases have been reviewed, and many are confused simply because they do not know that the Greek "theos" (God/god) is interchangeable with "Elohim" (human magistrates, deities, etc.), except for a single very complex interpretation of John 14:10 (20) as noted by Basil the Great. I respect those who believe in this faith, and I also respect the Muslims who interpret it as only a temporary relationship of Jesus in the Father. As for the Logos, this is undeniable: Jesus is the Logos tabernacled in the flesh, the Word of God in the Quran, the Messiah born of the Virgin Mary. Jesus did not receive latria worship in the Christian Bible. There is no proof for such... All expressions of PROSKUNEO in relation to Jesus refer to veneration, the same as in 1 Samuel 25:23.

1 Samuel 25:23-24 King James Version
And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ***, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground, And fell at his feet, and said, Upon me, my lord ('ă·ḏō·nî אֲדֹנִ֖י ), upon me let this iniquity be: and let thine handmaid, I pray thee, speak in thine audience, and hear the words of thine handmaid.

The Hebrew term 'ă·ḏō·nî אֲדֹנִ֖י is always used for human lords in the Hebrew Bible.

Matthew 28:6 King James Version
He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Matthew 28:6 Lexham English Bible
He is not here, for he has been raised, just as he said. Come, see the place where he was lying.

The accusation of the "conservators" is that the Alexandrian Manuscripts/Critical Text that give rise to the modern Bibles here steal from Him the title "THE LORD" (the God Jehovah, the total Owner-and-Controller of everything and everyone). However, when we analyze the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew from 1400 AD by Shem Tov ben-Izaak ben-Shaprut, we note that the word used is הָאָדוֹן ( 'ă·ḏō·nî אֲדֹנִ֖י)

אֵינֶנּוּ כָּאן שֶׁכְּבָר חָי כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמַר לָכֵן בּוֹאוּ וּרְאוּ הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר עָמַד שָׁם הָאָדוֹן

This is a strange answer mate .. a whole bunch of spaghetti on the wall .. none of it addressing the reality that you have no idea what the name of the God of Jesus is .. nor know his commands from that of "The Father" of the Pharisees .. that Jesus calls the Devil.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

How are you going to Do the will of "my Father who art in heaven" .. hallowed be thy name . if you know neither the hallowed name, nor the will of this God .. Heed not the heresy of snake charmers .. telling you tales ... trying to usurp the position of the Logos with the triune hand of Man. This is high blasphemy Brother Betho .. wandering into the land of "unforgivable sin" blasphemy of the Spirit ..

Turn away from the dark path and hearken unto "The Word" as per the Logos .. whose purpose is to deliver that word to those that can hear straightforward language .. thoughts and ideas.

What is complicated .. what is blocking the light .. can the question be more simple 1) who is "my Father" ... looking for the name of this God here friend .. and 2) what is the will of this God - according to Jesus in the Sermon he has just given on the subject - "what the will of the Father is"

Tell us the Will of the Father -- and the name of the Father .. the Hallowed name of the God of Jesus.

 

[DNB]

You will reap what you sow

-Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise.
-Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher.
-Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats.
-Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified.
-Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate(the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover).
-There are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus.
-Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah.
-both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

This can be verified , point by point.

So , instead of just attacking you may also present some evidence to support your claim.

Name me one of those monkeys who you cited that were inspired, or knew what they were talking about.
These were enemies of the Christians - many at that time also thought that the early church ate children.
Both Christ and Paul warned that heretics would infiltrate the Church immediately after their departure - the trinity is patent proof of that prediction.

 

[DNB]

Your nasty post clearly shows your complete inability to understand the Trinity specifically and the Bible in general.

BTW, it's obvious that you don't even understand what "soteriological" means? It has nothing to do with this discussion.

No, you are the oblivious one - how is the atonement effectuated when God sacrifices Himself, to Himself?
You're out of your league.

 

[Betho_br]

This is a strange answer mate .. a whole bunch of spaghetti on the wall .. none of it addressing the reality that you have no idea what the name of the God of Jesus is .. nor know his commands from that of "The Father" of the Pharisees .. that Jesus calls the Devil.

Matt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

How are you going to Do the will of "my Father who art in heaven" .. hallowed be thy name . if you know neither the hallowed name, nor the will of this God .. Heed not the heresy of snake charmers .. telling you tales ... trying to usurp the position of the Logos with the triune hand of Man. This is high blasphemy Brother Betho .. wandering into the land of "unforgivable sin" blasphemy of the Spirit ..

Turn away from the dark path and hearken unto "The Word" as per the Logos .. whose purpose is to deliver that word to those that can hear straightforward language .. thoughts and ideas.

What is complicated .. what is blocking the light .. can the question be more simple 1) who is "my Father" ... looking for the name of this God here friend .. and 2) what is the will of this God - according to Jesus in the Sermon he has just given on the subject - "what the will of the Father is"

Tell us the Will of the Father -- and the name of the Father .. the Hallowed name of the God of Jesus.

I don't know the reasons, if you investigated, if you read the translation of the manuscript and compared Jesus' statements, but the fact is that you stated that you were unable to understand the connection between Jesus' sayings and the type of Christ narrated and expected in manuscript 4Q246. I disagree with your post, but I respect your opinion.

Etymology means how a word was “born”, how it generally originated from a noun or a verb, over time, the original meaning can be perpetuated, lost completely or leave some traces of the original use, in this way, the meanings of words in the linguistic contexts in which they are used are dynamic. As if this were not enough, the academic works and citations referring to the sacred tetragrammaton YHWH are herculaneum and increase every day, in the face of new biblical and extra-biblical evidence, elucidating theories and speculations, as can be seen, there is no consensus among scholars on the topic and therefore, there is no need for more prolixities on the specific topic, there is an urgent need for pragmatism.

As for the Name of God, we know it is יהוה and it is found in Exodus 3:15, the Name of God is not a verbal form of היה (be, become, happen, accomplish).

According to the strict grammatical rules of Hebrew, the name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Yehowah, Yehova, Yehovah, the pronunciation would be "yerrova" in Latin, however, I have my own understanding of the name of God by observing the acrotics that occur with the tetragrammaton in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[Sargonski]

I don't know the reasons, if you investigated, if you read the translation of the manuscript and compared Jesus' statements, but the fact is that you stated that you were unable to understand the connection between Jesus' sayings and the type of Christ narrated and expected in manuscript 4Q246. I disagree with your post, but I respect your opinion.

Etymology means how a word was “born”, how it generally originated from a noun or a verb, over time, the original meaning can be perpetuated, lost completely or leave some traces of the original use, in this way, the meanings of words in the linguistic contexts in which they are used are dynamic. As if this were not enough, the academic works and citations referring to the sacred tetragrammaton YHWH are herculaneum and increase every day, in the face of new biblical and extra-biblical evidence, elucidating theories and speculations, as can be seen, there is no consensus among scholars on the topic and therefore, there is no need for more prolixities on the specific topic, there is an urgent need for pragmatism.

As for the Name of God, we know it is יהוה and it is found in Exodus 3:15, the Name of God is not a verbal form of היה (be, become, happen, accomplish).

According to the strict grammatical rules of Hebrew, the name of God in the Hebrew Bible is Yehowah, Yehova, Yehovah, the pronunciation would be "yerrova" in Latin, however, I have my own understanding of the name of God by observing the acrotics that occur with the tetragrammaton in the Hebrew Bible.

That was a whole lot of Blather to produce a name .. a complete failure to produce the commands of YHWH.

YHWH is indeed the name of one of the Gods in the Bible .. a "Son of God" bnei Elohim .. one of the 70 sons of the Most High God EL who battles with the other Sons of EL to see who will become Chief God over the Earth . EL still God on High in the heavens. El Shaddai, EL Oliun, El Elyon. God Supreme, God Most High.

This is not the God of Jesus but, tell us the command of this God in the case of an Idolotrous Parent .. Do we A) Kill the child for the sin of the Idolotrous parent or B) Do not kill the child for the sins of the Father -- Let each be punished according to his own sin.

Which is the command of Lord YHWH ? ... and why do you wish to follow the commands of Lord YHWH rather the commands of the God of Jesus .. "the will of the Father" 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Why do you reject the Will of the Father Brother Betho ?

 

[GoodAttention]

4Q246, also known as the Son of God Text or the Aramaic Apocalypse, is one of the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran which is notable for an early messianic mention of a son of God. Wikipedia.

The Son of God text refers specifically to Alexander the Great, who proclaimed himself the son of Zeus in Greece, Amun-Ra in Egypt, and Marduk in Persia.

 

[Betho_br]

That was a whole lot of Blather to produce a name .. a complete failure to produce the commands of YHWH.

YHWH is indeed the name of one of the Gods in the Bible .. a "Son of God" bnei Elohim .. one of the 70 sons of the Most High God EL who battles with the other Sons of EL to see who will become Chief God over the Earth . EL still God on High in the heavens. El Shaddai, EL Oliun, El Elyon. God Supreme, God Most High.

This is not the God of Jesus but, tell us the command of this God in the case of an Idolotrous Parent .. Do we A) Kill the child for the sin of the Idolotrous parent or B) Do not kill the child for the sins of the Father -- Let each be punished according to his own sin.

Which is the command of Lord YHWH ? ... and why do you wish to follow the commands of Lord YHWH rather the commands of the God of Jesus .. "the will of the Father" 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Why do you reject the Will of the Father Brother Betho ?

Distinct Deities:
- El and Yehowah were originally distinct deities that became amalgamated over time. This view is supported by scholars such as F.K. Movers, O. Eissfeldt, and T.N.D. Mettinger.

General Name for God:
- The term 'el is often used as a general name for God in the Old Testament without reflecting the Canaanite background. In some instances, it does reflect the Canaanite El, but this does not imply that Yehowah was one of the sons of El.

Yehowah's Transcendence:
- Yehowah is described as transcending natural elements like the sun, indicating a higher status than merely being one of the sons of El. For example, Isaiah 60.19-20 describes Yehowah as an everlasting light, greater than the sun.

Monotheism and Heavenly Court:
- As monotheism became absolute, the heavenly court originally composed of gods was demoted to the status of angels. This shift further emphasizes Yehowah's unique and supreme position.

Creator God:
- There is evidence that the Old Testament appropriated El language when speaking of Yehowah as the creator, but this does not imply that Yehowah was one of El's sons. Instead, it shows the amalgamation and elevation of Yehowah's status.

 

[Betho_br]

The Son of God text refers specifically to Alexander the Great, who proclaimed himself the son of Zeus in Greece, Amun-Ra in Egypt, and Marduk in Persia.

In general, it was assumed that in ancient Judaism, the Messiah would not be called the ‘Son of God,’ while in the Christian Bible (New Testament), this term is used frequently. Would this then be influenced by Greek pagan ideas? The discovery of the Qumran 4Q246 text (fragment 246 from the 4th cave of Qumran) prompts reconsideration because the most important passage in this Aramaic commentary on the book of Daniel, dating back to 150 BCE (!), states: ‘He will be called Son of God, and they will call him Son of the Most High.’ This statement closely resembles the angel’s words to Mary: ‘He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High … and will be called Holy, the Son of God’ (Luke 1:32-35). This justifies the opinion of Professor Rainer Riesner: ‘The Qumran 4Q246 fragment shows that Luke’s narrative of the birth is not of Greek pagan origin but rather Judeo-Palestinian.’ Therefore, by no later than the 2nd century BCE, there already existed the theological notion that the Messiah should be the Son of God, as the Christian Bible (New Testament) testifies regarding the lordship of Jesus Christ.

The issue is that the Messiah of 4Q246 is preceded by tribulations and does not restore peace, but this is precisely what is written in the Gospels (As I have proven), however, this Jesus is not the one preached by Christianity, so different characters were speculated to occupy the title of "son of god" from 4Q246.

 

[B-psychedelic]

For many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

Glory be to our Lord and Savior Jesus, Amen!
Bro, first of all, you are right, in terms of the deity of Christ Jesus and to support you with this;

1. The Trinity, is not identified by name in the Bible but is expressed and spoken of severally but only if you pay attention. (Gen 1:2-3 [And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God (The third person of the God-Head) moved upon the face of the waters. And God(The first person of the God-Head) said(The second person of the God-Head), Let there be light: and there was light.] 3:8 [And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden (Also known as the word-second person of the God-Head) in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.])

(John1:1, &:14 [In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14)And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.])

2. Trinity means; God is One Divine Essence inside this Divine Essence are three Personalities (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
(Luke 3:21-22 [Now it came to pass, in all the people having been baptized, Jesus (The Second Person) also having been baptized and having prayed, the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit (The Third Person) descended upon Him in a bodily form as a dove, and a voice came out of heaven: "You are My Son, the beloved; in You, I am well pleased. (The First Person)"])

Here, we see all three distinct personalities functioning at the same time. Three distinct personalities are not three different entities. If confused search for the literal term Personification as a literary device and its definition.

3. Jesus is the Divine word of the Father made flesh (John 1:1 & 14) he is also one with The Father (John 10:30)
and made this proclamation to seal it; (Mark 14:61-62 [But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven])
ref: (Daniel 7:13-14 [I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.])

Here we also realize that Jesus is the God Set to bring judgment to mankind.

4. Jesus Is Eternal as the Father is Eternal (John 17:5 [And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.])
Here also Jesus(God the Son) calls to his father(God the Father) to glorify the way he did when he was with before the world came to be.

5. Now again, Jesus praying to the Father doesn't take away his divinity but rather makes sense of this passage; (Jeremiah 32:27 [
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?])

and it makes more sense when this was written about him (Psalm 22:10 [I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.])

God The Father became the God of Jesus Christ when he took on flesh and it's unlikely that God would become a man and join Atheism.
There is more but this is what I can provide of the head. Hope it was helpful at least

 

[YellowFeather]

True, Jesus is not God. Jesus is only the Son of God. Jehovah is God, and Jesus is the Son of God. God could not come down to earth in the flesh because the flesh was sin due to Adam and Eves disopedients to God, So God had to send Jesus down in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. Romans 8: 1-3. Then when Jesus went back to heaven he now sits at the Right hand of God. Even Jesus says he is not equal to God. Philippians 2:5 Let this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God.
Being in the form of God and the image of God means you have the same thoughts. God made man in his image. that does not make us God.

 

[alf]

God made man in his image. that does not make us God.

Is this text from Genesis a lie?

They must not be allowed to take fruit from the tree that gives life, eat it, and live forever.

 

[Sargonski]

Distinct Deities:
- El and Yehowah were originally distinct deities that became amalgamated over time. This view is supported by scholars such as F.K. Movers, O. Eissfeldt, and T.N.D. Mettinger.

General Name for God:
- The term 'el is often used as a general name for God in the Old Testament without reflecting the Canaanite background. In some instances, it does reflect the Canaanite El, but this does not imply that Yehowah was one of the sons of El.

Yehowah's Transcendence:
- Yehowah is described as transcending natural elements like the sun, indicating a higher status than merely being one of the sons of El. For example, Isaiah 60.19-20 describes Yehowah as an everlasting light, greater than the sun.

Monotheism and Heavenly Court:
- As monotheism became absolute, the heavenly court originally composed of gods was demoted to the status of angels. This shift further emphasizes Yehowah's unique and supreme position.

Creator God:
- There is evidence that the Old Testament appropriated El language when speaking of Yehowah as the creator, but this does not imply that Yehowah was one of El's sons. Instead, it shows the amalgamation and elevation of Yehowah's status.

Good .. you figured out that there is more than one God in the Bible .. and YHWH ... one of the Sons of God .. battled with the other 70 sons of EL to see who would usurp ELs position of Chief God on Earth .. but EL is still chief God in the heavens .. head of the Divine Council .. the Creator - Most HIgh - Father and so on. .. so there is amalgamation in one sense but there Two Gods remain distinct until the time of YHWH's death around 500 BC.

So .. Kudo's for figuring out the identity of the God of Jesus "EL" but a big fail on telling us what the commands of the God if Jesus "The Father" are .. such that we can be put right with this God !?

Do you not understand why we are playing this Game Brother Betho ? It is salvation at stake here ..

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Do you not understand "only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. == " why are the words of Jesus not sinking in . ??

 

[Betho_br]

True, Jesus is not God. Jesus is only the Son of God. Jehovah is God, and Jesus is the Son of God. God could not come down to earth in the flesh because the flesh was sin due to Adam and Eves disopedients to God, So God had to send Jesus down in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. Romans 8: 1-3. Then when Jesus went back to heaven he now sits at the Right hand of God. Even Jesus says he is not equal to God. Philippians 2:5 Let this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God.
Being in the form of God and the image of God means you have the same thoughts. God made man in his image. that does not make us God.

We need to pay attention and take an equitable view of the use of the word "kecharitomene" used in Luke 1:28 in relation to the virgin Mary. In short, she was made in the past, that is, by prophecy, "justified", that is, full of grace (gratia plena in Latin), so the Word (the Logos) of Yehowah could tabernacle in her, and the Christological Elohim, the Lord over all, was manifested among us in the likeness of Yehowah.

 

[GoodAttention]

In general, it was assumed that in ancient Judaism, the Messiah would not be called the ‘Son of God,’ while in the Christian Bible (New Testament), this term is used frequently. Would this then be influenced by Greek pagan ideas?

Yes and no. As I said, Alexander the Great referred to himsel as the Son of God, and also indirectly as the "Son of Most High", since Zeus, Amun-Ra, and Marduk are all considered the highest amongst their relative pantheon.

The discovery of the Qumran 4Q246 text (fragment 246 from the 4th cave of Qumran) prompts reconsideration because the most important passage in this Aramaic commentary on the book of Daniel, dating back to 150 BCE (!)

I disagree. The text is not related to Daniel but to Maccabees, or specifically it reads as a prophecy that King Philip of Macedon receives from God. The 4Q246 text describes the Spirit of God resting upon a person who falls before their throne, hence a king, of an impending wrath that will released into the world. The description that the king's life will be shortened is also historically accurate regarding King Philip. The text goes on to describe much war and slaughter, from which a prince, that is Alexander, will become king of Assyria (then Persia) and Egypt. Alexander rules this land and is known as the Basileus or emperor. When Alexander dies, his son Alexander IV, who is "designated his name" is also called "The Great", since he is referred to as Megas Basileus or Great Emperor, even though he ruled via regent and was killed at age 14.

*Edit - The prophetic nature of the text, whilst connected to Maccabees, would have been in relation to Ezekiel during the time Babylonian exile 593-571 BCE.

, states: ‘He will be called Son of God, and they will call him Son of the Most High.’ This statement closely resembles the angel’s words to Mary: ‘He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High … and will be called Holy, the Son of God’ (Luke 1:32-35). This justifies the opinion of Professor Rainer Riesner: ‘The Qumran 4Q246 fragment shows that Luke’s narrative of the birth is not of Greek pagan origin but rather Judeo-Palestinian.’

This is when you accept that the Son of God and Son of Most High can not, and do not, refer to Alexander the Great. The origin therefore is neither Greek pagan nor strictly "Judeo-Palestinian", but a reference to a historical person and the claims he made.

The fact that the "Professor" even used Judeo-Palestinian shows a firm pro-Christian and anti-Jewish bias.

Therefore, by no later than the 2nd century BCE, there already existed the theological notion that the Messiah should be the Son of God, as the Christian Bible (New Testament) testifies regarding the lordship of Jesus Christ.

This conclusion is therefore an anachronistic testification, since there is no proof Jewish people believed in the theological notion that the Messiah would be a Son of God. You could say that the Son of God described in 4Q246 was the "sign" that precedes the "eternal kingdom", which is exactly how it reads.

The issue is that the Messiah of 4Q246 is preceded by tribulations and does not restore peace,

It isn't an issue when the Son of God is a reference to Alexander the Great.

but this is precisely what is written in the Gospels (As I have proven), however, this Jesus is not the one preached by Christianity, so different characters were speculated to occupy the title of "son of god" from 4Q246.

It is neither precise nor a proof of any conclusion. Luke describes Jesus as being both the son of El Elyon and YHWH to inspire a cohesion of beliefs. This is independant of what is written in 4Q246.

Nevertheless I have shown you enough proof about who the Son of God in 4Q246 is being referred to, and how the text relates to Maccabees 1 and not Daniel.

 

[Betho_br]

Good .. you figured out that there is more than one God in the Bible .. and YHWH ... one of the Sons of God .. battled with the other 70 sons of EL to see who would usurp ELs position of Chief God on Earth .. but EL is still chief God in the heavens .. head of the Divine Council .. the Creator - Most HIgh - Father and so on. .. so there is amalgamation in one sense but there Two Gods remain distinct until the time of YHWH's death around 500 BC.

So .. Kudo's for figuring out the identity of the God of Jesus "EL" but a big fail on telling us what the commands of the God if Jesus "The Father" are .. such that we can be put right with this God !?

Do you not understand why we are playing this Game Brother Betho ? It is salvation at stake here ..

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Do you not understand "only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. == " why are the words of Jesus not sinking in . ??

Psalm 82 New International Version
Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God (Elohim) presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods” (Elohim):

2 “How long will you[a] defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 “The ‘gods’ (Elohim) know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods” (Elohim);
you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
you will fall like every other ruler.”

8 Rise up, O God (Elohim) , judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

In verse 7, a characteristic of these Elohim is given: ‘But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like any other ruler.’ We know that Elohim can refer to human magistrates (Exodus 21:6; 1 Samuel 2:25), and that’s precisely what is being addressed in this Psalm.

In the verse 8, "Rise up, o (Elohim), judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance," Elohim is invoked as a just and powerful judge. Here are some characteristics or functions of Elohim in this context:

1. Judge of the Earth: Elohim is called to rise up and judge the earth, indicating His role as the supreme and sovereign judge over all nations.

2. Universal Sovereignty: The verse states that all nations are His inheritance, highlighting Elohim's universal authority over all humanity.

3. Justice and Righteousness: As a judge, Elohim is expected to act with justice and righteousness, making impartial and correct judgments.

4. Protection and Governance: Elohim is invoked to intervene and govern, protecting the righteous and executing justice upon the unrighteous.

These functions emphasize Elohim as a divine figure of power, justice, and sovereignty over all creation, especially in contexts of divine judgment and governance.

1. Judge of the Earth:
   • In the Old Testament, Elohim is invoked as the supreme judge over all nations. His role is to execute justice and righteousness. This concept aligns with Jesus’ teaching about judgment. In the New Testament, Jesus speaks about the final judgment, separating the righteous from the unrighteous (Matthew 25:31-46).
   • Reference: Matthew 25:31-46
2. Universal Sovereignty:
   • Elohim’s authority extends over all humanity. Similarly, Jesus is described as having all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18). He is the King of kings and Lord of lords (Revelation 19:16).
   • References: Matthew 28:18, Revelation 19:16
3. Justice and Righteousness:
   • Elohim’s judgments are just and righteous. Jesus, too, embodies perfect justice and righteousness. He consistently upheld God’s moral law and demonstrated compassion for the oppressed and marginalized.
   • References: Acts 10:38, Hebrews 1:8-9
4. Protection and Governance:
   • Elohim intervenes to protect the righteous and execute justice. Jesus, as the Good Shepherd, cares for His flock, protects them, and ensures their well-being (John 10:11-18).
   • References: John 10:11-18

Additionally, Isaiah 9:6 prophesies about the coming Messiah (Jesus): “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” In this verse, “Mighty God” (El Gibbor) emphasizes Jesus’ divine nature and power. It echoes the concept of Elohim as the supreme and mighty ruler. Jesus fulfills this prophecy, embodying the characteristics of Elohim in His ministry and sacrificial work.

In summary, the Psalmist invokes the coming of the Christological Elohim (Jesus).

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