• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus is not God

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jesus is not God
paarsurrey said:
Sure, I understand, he is not G-d, he never claimed to be as such, please, right?
In the Christian Bible, it is literally written that Jesus is the Logos (the Word), an Elohim (a Christological theos, a divine judge), Adonai, the Lord over all and the Messiah. Anything beyond this is interpretation and philosophical development.
Christian-Bible is not written by Jesus, it is a Pauline anonymous narrative, it cannot claim anything on Jesus' behalf, please, right?
For Jesus' claims his own first hand claim is required, right, please?

Required
 
Last edited:

Betho_br

Active Member
Jesus is not God
paarsurrey said:
Sure, I understand, he is not G-d, he never claimed to be as such, please, right?

Christian-Bible is not written by Jesus, it is a Pauline anonymous narrative, it cannot claim anything on Jesus' behalf, please, right?
For Jesus' claims his own first hand claim in required, right, please?

Required

וַיַּרְא֙ כָּל־הָעָ֔ם וַֽיִּפְּל֖וּ עַל־פְּנֵיהֶ֑ם וַיֹּ֣אמְר֔וּ יְהוָה֙ ה֣וּא הָאֱלֹהִ֔ים יְהוָ֖ה ה֥וּא הָאֱלֹהִֽים

And all the people saw, and they fell on their faces, and said, 'The Yehovah, he is Elohim! The Yehovah, he is Elohim!' 1 Kings 18:39

Elijah is the Elohim.

Another case:

נֹורָ֤א יְהוָה֙ עֲלֵיהֶ֔ם כִּ֣י רָזָ֔ה אֵ֖ת כָּל־אֱלֹהֵ֣י הָאָ֑רֶץ וְיִשְׁתַּֽחֲווּ־לֹו֙ אִ֣ישׁ מִמְּקֹומֹ֔ו כֹּ֖ל אִיֵּ֥י הַגֹּויִֽם׃

Awesome is Yahweh over them, for He will make all the elohim of the earth thin. And they will bow to Him, each from his place, all the islands of the nations.

razah: to be or grow lean
Original Word: רָזָה
Part of Speech: Verb

There were various elohim on earth (deified judges, christs/messiahs, priest-kings, king-priests).

The Pauline narratives, according to critics of the Greek Christian Bible, are often severely misunderstood in Greek and inadequately translated by many. Moreover, these scriptures reflect the dominant viewpoint of uncircumcised Hellenists regarding the circumcised after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I agree that the pseudo-Christian letters should play a lesser role and hold less value compared to other writings in the Christian Bible and the Hebrew Bible. As I explained, "theos" in the Bible is not always the Tetragrammaton; sometimes it is "elohim." In the primary example Jesus cites from the Psalms 82:6 in the Gospels, it is like this. As I have shown, "elohim" can range from definitions of God to divinized judges. Jesus stands in the middle: a king-priest and Messiah/Christ. This is indeed what the Pauline narratives truly teach.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [...] 30 I and the Father are one."

That's not a claim to be God. That's a claim to be one with God, and clearly distinguishes God, who "is greater than all" from the speaker, Jesus.

And while we're in John ─

John 5:19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”​
John 5:30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”​
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me ...​
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.​
John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “... 29 My Father ... is greater than all”.​
John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father but by me.” (Incompatible with triune concept,)​
John 17:3 “And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.”​
John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “[...] go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”​
I believe one may not be one with god without being God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus is not God
paarsurrey said:
Sure, I understand, he is not G-d, he never claimed to be as such, please, right?

Christian-Bible is not written by Jesus, it is a Pauline anonymous narrative, it cannot claim anything on Jesus' behalf, please, right?
For Jesus' claims his own first hand claim is required, right, please?


Required
I believe Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh in many ways. It is a consistent theme.

I believe this is partially true however the Paraclete plays an important function in the writing and Jesus and the Father are in the Paraclete.

I believe Paul wrote with the help of the Paraclete.

I believe that is wrong.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.
Jesus is not God in flash. But maybe it can be said that He was God's Spirit.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus is not God in flash. But maybe it can be said that He was God's Spirit.
Well...very interesting. The Bible says that the Son of God was WITH God. Now yes, many translations say that the Son who was with God was God also. I'd be interested in getting into translations and definitions if possible. It doesn't say at John 1:1 there were three godpersons \in the beginning though.
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

That was my take many years ago, and although I don't believe Jesus alone is God, I still believe Jesus is God. How can this be? John 14:15-20 helps me understand the concept. While it doesn't explicitly state that Jesus is God, it is implied but then it likewise implies the same for us. Apparently, the substance that is God is in us, of which we are also made, which is likewise that which we live, move, and have our being in, per Acts 17:28. We are God's children, every one of us and we do indeed fall like the princes, and we likewise die as people do. Psalms 82

That's life.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Jesus is not God
paarsurrey said:
Sure, I understand, he is not G-d, he never claimed to be as such, please, right?

Christian-Bible is not written by Jesus, it is a Pauline anonymous narrative, it cannot claim anything on Jesus' behalf, please, right?
For Jesus' claims his own first hand claim is required, right, please?

Required
Jesus said in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"

and in John 17:20-21, “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

and in John 14:9b, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "Christian Bible", a.k.a., the New Testament, was written by a variety of authors. It was never a "Pauline anonymous narrative". And of course it most definitely can "claim anything on Jesus' behalf".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does "For Jesus' claims his own first hand claim is required, right, please?" mean???
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus said in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"

and in John 17:20-21, “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

and in John 14:9b, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "Christian Bible", a.k.a., the New Testament, was written by a variety of authors. It was never a "Pauline anonymous narrative". And of course it most definitely can "claim anything on Jesus' behalf".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does "For Jesus' claims his own first hand claim is required, right, please?" mean???
If a king or government leader has an emissary or representative, he speaks for the one who sent him.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus said in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one"

and in John 17:20-21, “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

and in John 14:9b, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "Christian Bible", a.k.a., the New Testament, was written by a variety of authors. It was never a "Pauline anonymous narrative". And of course it most definitely can "claim anything on Jesus' behalf".A

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does "For Jesus' claims his own first hand claim is required, right, please?" mean???
At any rate, Jesus did not say anyone who sees him sees the father and the holy spirit.
 
If a king or government leader has an emissary or representative, he speaks for the one who sent him.
I agree. In Ex. 23:20-23 God tells Moses that He was going to send an angel to be with them all the time. He tells Moses that He had put "His name in him,” and explains that there was a connection between what that angel felt and how God himself would react. God and an angel were connected, because the angel was God’s representative. In Is. 63:8-10 it says that this was a personal angel, His own personal angel, that God was dedicating especially to them. Ex. 14:19 speaks about that same angel.

But the angel was not God in person.
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I agree. In Ex. 23:20-23 God tells Moses that He was going to send an angel to be with them all the time. He tells Moses that He had put "His name in him,” and explains that there was a connection between what that angel felt and how God himself would react. God and an angel were connected, because the angel was God’s representative. In Is. 63:8-10 it says that this was a personal angel, His own personal angel, that God was dedicating especially to them. Ex. 14:19 speaks about that same angel.

But the angel was not God in person.
Thank you very much and for the scriptural explanation.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If a king or government leader has an emissary or representative, he speaks for the one who sent him.
You must think in heavenly (miraculous) terms. The Bible is not referring to an earthly government. No earthly emissary or representative claims to be the one who sent him/her.

Obviously there is something that you don't understand about Jesus saying "I and the Father are one".
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.
Someone should tell Jesus.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
At any rate, Jesus did not say anyone who sees him sees the father and the holy spirit.
Jesus didn't say anything about seeing the Holy Spirit! What He did say was "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father". Is that too hard for you to understand?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus didn't say anything about seeing the Holy Spirit! What He did say was "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father". Is that too hard for you to understand?
I suggest you read what @Bible_Student wrote in reference to that. Plus when Jesus got baptized a voice was heard from heaven.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Jesus didn't say anything about seeing the Holy Spirit! What He did say was "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father". Is that too hard for you to understand?
It's not too hard because I understand that Jesus did not mean he was the Father. He was describing a very very close relationship with his Father. Closer than anyone else. He was with God his Father in heaven for a long time before he came to the earth. He prayed to the Father.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
It's not too hard because I understand that Jesus did not mean he was the Father. He was describing a very very close relationship with his Father. Closer than anyone else. He was with God his Father in heaven for a long time before he came to the earth. He prayed to the Father.

I don't think it's a matter of you not understanding; rather, it's a matter of you disagreeing with his preferred interpretation of the Bible.
 
I suggest you read what @Bible_Student wrote in reference to that. Plus when Jesus got baptized a voice was heard from heaven.
Look what the Bible says about Jesus Christ; here Moses speaks:

Deut. 18:15 A prophet from your own midst, from your brothers, like me, is what Jehovah your God will raise up for you—to him YOU people should listen— 16 in response to all that you asked of Jehovah your God in Hoʹreb on the day of the congregation, saying, ‘Do not let me hear again the voice of Jehovah my God, and this great fire do not let me see anymore, that I may not die.’ 17 At that Jehovah said to me, ‘They have done well in speaking what they did. 18 A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of their brothers, like you; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth, and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. 19 And it must occur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name, I shall myself require an account from him.

When I was studying that passage of the Bible I was surprised, because even Moses knew that Jesus Christ would be sent by Jehovah in the future. Still, there are some who make up that Jehovah and Jesus are the same person, and even say that Jehovah himself came in the flesh. But that contradicts what Jehovah told Moses, that he would send a prophet like him in the future.

Heb. 1:2 says that although Jehovah spoke through other prophets in ancient times, in the first century he spoke through a son, who was that special prophet that he had told Moses he would send.

In Acts 3:22-26 Peter says very clearly that Jesus was that prophet that Jehovah had promised Moses He would send.
 
Top