Jesus is not God

[Trailblazer]

He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end. -Luke 1:32-33 Modern King James Version

• And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David.
• And He shall reign over the house of Jacob
• Forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
• According to the earliest teachings about Christ Jesus, recorded in one of the four Gospels.
• Through the line of David, Jesus will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jesus will reign in Heaven forever, but He will never reign on Earth. His reign ended when He died and ascended to Heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

 

[jimb]

Any literate person who read the Bible (or an illiterate hearer) should clearly understand that Jesus is God. If s/he disagrees, then s/he doesn't know how to read with comprehension.

 

[Trailblazer]

Any literate person who read the Bible (or an illiterate hearer) should clearly understand that Jesus is God. If s/he disagrees, then s/he doesn't know how to read with comprehension.

Any literate person who read the Bible (or an illiterate hearer) should clearly understand that Jesus is not God.

Jesus was not God in the flesh, Jesus was a Manifestation of God in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3-16
KJV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Do you understand the difference between a Manifestation and an incarnation?
Jesus manifested God's attributes so he was a mirror image of God.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

But an image is not the same as what it is an image of. When I look in the mirror I see my image, but I am not in the mirror.
God is invisible so we know that Jesus cannot be God, since many people saw Jesus.

 

[walt]

Jesus will reign in Heaven forever, but He will never reign on Earth. His reign ended when He died and ascended to Heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end. -Luke 1:32-33 Modern King James Version

• Jacob was a human being from Earth, Jacob is called Israel and had 12 sons that made up the 12 tribes of Israel.
• The house of Jacob is a Earthly house, representing the 12 tribes of Israel.
• Yes Jesus resides in heaven, I never said Jesus would be coming back as a human on earth, Jesus resides in heaven!

• The Bible prophesies that God will set up a kingdom that will crush all other Earthly kingdoms. Daniel 2:44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,
• Sure at the time Jesus said My kingdom is no part of this world that is correct, Jesus received all authority and was highly exalted, after he was resurrected, Matthew 28:18, Phil 2:8-11, Acts 2:32-33
• Daniel 7:13, 14 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
• This is a Earthly Kingdom.

 

[firedragon]

Jesus will reign in Heaven forever, but He will never reign on Earth. His reign ended when He died and ascended to Heaven.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

But the Bible also alludes to Jesus's return correct?

 

[Trailblazer]

But the Bible also alludes to Jesus's return correct?

It sure does. It says that Jesus is not going to return.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

No more means no further, never again.

 

[firedragon]

It sure does. It says that Jesus is not going to return.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

No more means no further, never again.

So you are saying the Bible contradicts itself!

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are saying the Bible contradicts itself!

No, because there is nothing in the Bible that says that Jesus is going to return to earth.

 

[firedragon]

No, because there is nothing in the Bible that says that Jesus is going to return to earth.

The verses you quoted were vague. Your statement above is so specific. You even mention earth.

Anyway,

Several verses in the New Testament refer to the return of Jesus, often referred to as the "Second Coming" or "Parousia." Here are some key passages:



1. **Matthew 24:30-31**:

- "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

2. **John 14:3**:

- "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

3. **Acts 1:11**:

- "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

4. **1 Thessalonians 4:16-17**:

- "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

5. **Revelation 1:7**:

- "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen."

These verses are central to the Christian belief in the future return of Jesus Christ to judge the living and the dead and to establish God's kingdom fully on earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

• The Bible prophesies that God will set up a kingdom that will crush all other Earthly kingdoms. Daniel 2:44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever,

I believe that God has already set up that kingdom through Baha'u'llah and that kingdom will never be destroyed.

• Daniel 7:13, 14 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
• This is a Earthly Kingdom.

It is an Earthly kingdom, but not a kingdom that Jesus is going to set up or rule.

Christians believe that the following verses are about Jesus, but since Jesus was the Son of man, the following verses cannot be about the Jesus.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

I believe that those verses are about Baha'u'llah who was one like Jesus.

Jesus ascended into heaven. Baha’u’llah, one like the son of man, descended from the heaven of the Will of God, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Those verses are about an earthly Kingdom, not a heavenly Kingdom. Jesus’ Kingdom is in heaven, Baha’u’llah’s Kingdom will be on earth, after it is built by humans.

 

[walt]

Why did Jesus say this to his disciples?

...I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. -Matthew 28:20

While in heaven Jesus helped the congregation from the persecution of Saul.

Acts 9:3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

Jesus meant what he said: I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. - Matthew 28:20

 

[Trailblazer]

The verses you quoted were vague. Your statement above is so specific. You even mention earth.

Those verses are not vague. They are straight to the point. Jesus will be in this world NO MORE.

Anyway,

Several verses in the New Testament refer to the return of Jesus, often referred to as the "Second Coming" or "Parousia." Here are some key passages:

No, none of those verses are referring to the return of the same man Jesus. They are referring to the return of Christ.

1. **Matthew 24:30-31**:

- "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

www.religiousforums.com

2. **John 14:3**:

- "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.

How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven now? His disciples are no longer on earth.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples.. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again in the future, which I believe it did, in Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

If Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

3. **Acts 1:11**:

- "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The disciples (Men of Galilee) were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky, and then they said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. The text does not say what the disciples saw going up to heaven, but presumably it was the spiritual body of Jesus, the body that Jesus had after he died physically and was resurrected (transformed).

1 Corinthians 15: 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

The angels said: This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.
The angels said: This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.

That is not a reason to believe that the same Jesus will return as He ascended since angels carry no authority. Some angels 'believed' that Jesus was coming back to earth. So what? My point is that Jesus never said that He was coming back to earth, never. Rather, Jesus said He was no more in this world.

4. **1 Thessalonians 4:16-17**:

- "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Jesus was not the Lord.
Aside from that, this is the most absurd verse in the New Testament, if interpreted literally.

5. **Revelation 1:7**:

- "Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him"; and all peoples on earth "will mourn because of him." So shall it be! Amen."

Maybe John believed it was Jesus who would be coming, as do millions of Christians, but where is Jesus?
And where did Jesus say He was going to return? Nowhere.

These verses are central to the Christian belief in the future return of Jesus Christ to judge the living and the dead and to establish God's kingdom fully on earth.

Of course I know that these are central to those Christian beliefs, but I believe those Christian beliefs are patently false.

 

[walt]

I believe that God has already set up that kingdom through Baha'u'llah and that kingdom will never be destroyed.

The scripture says it will crush all those kingdoms, have all the kingdoms in the world today been crushed?

It is an Earthly kingdom, but not a kingdom that Jesus is going to set up or rule.

The angel that spoke to Mary already answered that question.

He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end. -Luke 1:32-33 Modern King James Version

Where is the hundreds of prophecies about Baha'u'llah in the Bible? Jesus fulfilled over hundreds of prophecies in the Bible, and it is a complete book, it talks about what's going to happen after Armageddon, and even a thousand years after the end of this world. Wouldn't Jesus talk about Baha'u'llah hundreds of times to prepare the Christians for this New Book of Scriptures?

I have nothing against anyone who believes in Baha'u'llah, for me I just don't have a reason to look elsewhere. But the Bible warns me not to accept any other teachings but the original. The Bible says at the end of Revelation not to add or take away from this book.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why did Jesus say this to his disciples?

...I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. -Matthew 28:20

Jesus meant the He would always be with them in spirit.

Jesus also said:
John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

Since Jesus is no longer in the world, that verse implies that Jesus is not the light of the world anymore.

 

[jimb]

So you are saying the Bible contradicts itself!

Anyone who claims that the Bible contradicts itself doesn't understand the Bible.

 

[InChrist]

Why does Jesus say My God?

Please, why does Jesus say My God?
With much kindness and respect, will you please answer?

According to the scriptures, the Son of God lowered Himself into humanity in the Person of Jesus Christ. He says, “My God” because He is addressing God, His Father, from the human position.

 

[firedragon]

Those verses are not vague. They are straight to the point. Jesus will be in this world NO MORE.

No, none of those verses are referring to the return of the same man Jesus. They are referring to the return of Christ.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man...

www.religiousforums.com

Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place for His disciples.

How could Jesus come back to earth and take His disciples to heaven now? His disciples are no longer on earth.

John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to coming back to earth again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 16:10, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30)

John 14:2-3 is Jesus speaking to His disciples.. When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not talking about His physical body returning to earth, He was referring to His Spirit coming again in the future, which I believe it did, in Baha'u'llah, who was the return of the Christ spirit with a new name (Isaiah 62:2, Revelation 2:17, Revelation 3:12)

Jesus said to the disciples “I will come again, and receive you unto myself” Jesus knew He was going to heaven, and He was telling His disciples that He would prepare a place for them in heaven so they could be with Him in heaven -- that where I am, there ye may be also.

If Jesus returned to earth now, the disciples could not 'receive Jesus' since the disciples are no longer living on earth.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. 10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

The disciples (Men of Galilee) were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky. The two men dressed in white (angels) then wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky, and then they said that the same Jesus who was taken up to heaven will return as he went to heaven. The text does not say what the disciples saw going up to heaven, but presumably it was the spiritual body of Jesus, the body that Jesus had after he died physically and was resurrected (transformed).

1 Corinthians 15: 51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

The angels said: This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.
The angels said: This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.

That is not a reason to believe that the same Jesus will return as He ascended since angels carry no authority. Some angels 'believed' that Jesus was coming back to earth. So what? My point is that Jesus never said that He was coming back to earth, never. Rather, Jesus said He was no more in this world.

Jesus was not the Lord.
Aside from that, this is the most absurd verse in the New Testament, if interpreted literally.

Maybe John believed it was Jesus who would be coming, as do millions of Christians, but where is Jesus?
And where did Jesus say He was going to return? Nowhere.

Of course I know that these are central to those Christian beliefs, but I believe those Christian beliefs are patently false.

Okay. SO your thesis is that Jesus is not Christ!

 

[Trailblazer]

The scripture says it will crush all those kingdoms, have all the kingdoms in the world today been crushed?

Daniel 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

All this will happen during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah. The verse gives no timeline.

The angel that spoke to Mary already answered that question.

He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end. -Luke 1:32-33 Modern King James Version

His kingdom in heaven, not on Earth.

“In the Bible there are prophecies of the coming of Christ. The Jews still await the coming of the Messiah, and pray to God day and night to hasten His advent…….

The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Paris Talks, Pages 54-57

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay. SO your thesis is that Jesus is not Christ!

No, that is not my thesis. Jesus was the Christ.
My thesis is that Jesus is not going to be the return of Christ.

 

[firedragon]

No, that is not my thesis. Jesus was the Christ.
My thesis is that Jesus is not going to be the return of Christ.

Where in the Bible does it say that "Jesus is not the return of Christ"? You did quote some vague verses, but you are rejecting specific verses mentioning Christ on the basis of "Jesus is not Christ". But the Bible calls him the Christ. Also, the Qur'an calls him the Christ.

None of the scriptures say Jesus is not the Christ, or that there is a different christ inside just a plain man called Jesus who dies and then the so called "the christ, ha machiakh, or Al Masih" which is a separate being will return and he or it is not Jesus.

You will not find a single verse in any of these texts that you as a Bahai believe in. Not one.

Cheers.

Edit: Apologies if I butchered transliteration.