Jesus is not God

[YoursTrue]

Correct.

I do believe in a Trinity of sorts. That is what the Baha'i Faith teaches, so it is embedded in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

Question.—What is the meaning of the Trinity, of the Three Persons in One?

Answer.—The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent..............

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man 2 is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors—one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality—that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes—became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied—for the Sun is one—but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son,” meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. (Some Answered Questions, pp. 113-115)

You can read the whole chapter on the following link:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115

I think we may need to discuss a bit what the word God means, with or without the capital letter. To begin with, anything that is worshiped can be termed a god, since a worshiper attributes might greater than his own and regards it with with honor (such as bowing to an icon with an act of devotion).

 

[Muffled]

You duck the problem that each of the five versions of Jesus in the NT expressly denies that he's God and never claims to be God.

But of course Jesus can be anything you wish. My argument is only with those who claim the NT supports the idea that Jesus is God ─ since plainly the NT unwaveringly rejects that notion.

I believe I don't deal in fantasy.

I do not believe that to be true but people can wish it to be true.

 

[Muffled]

I can't follow you.

The Trinity is not an easy concept to understand, but that doesn't invalidate it.

I am one person, but I am also body, mind, and spirit. Three in one!

I am one person, but I am also a son, a husband, and a father. Three in one!

I am a male, an American, and a retiree. Three in one!

I believe this metaphor doesn't work. God is not in parts as the body is.

I believe this almost works; it is modalism since you act in the mode of son, husband and father. God is also in the mode of Son and Father and in a way the Paraclete could be viewed as a husband. The part that doesn't work is that all of that takes place in your body but the Trinity does not take place in one body.

 

[Muffled]

No, I don't think we could do that because the God of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the Trinity. The Trinity is a man-made doctrine.

I believe your concept is man made and the Trinity is God made.

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe your concept is man made and the Trinity is God made.

I believe my concept is God made and the Trinity is man made.
Jesus was not and never will be God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think we may need to discuss a bit what the word God means, with or without the capital letter. To begin with, anything that is worshiped can be termed a god, since a worshiper attributes might greater than his own and regards it with with honor (such as bowing to an icon with an act of devotion).

Anything that is worshiped aside from God can be termed a god, since a worshiper worships it as god.

 

[jimb]

I believe this metaphor doesn't work. God is not in parts as the body is.

I believe this almost works; it is modalism since you act in the mode of son, husband and father. God is also in the mode of Son and Father and in a way the Paraclete could be viewed as a husband. The part that doesn't work is that all of that takes place in your body but the Trinity does not take place in one body.

The Trinity is not a metaphor, it is a reality. Your body has many parts, yet you are one body.

God is one entity, composed of three parts: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Explain this: Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." John 1:3 "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

Or more fully, John 1:1, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

This is not an easy concept to grasp, but clearly you have not grasped it. Ask God to enlighten you about this.

 

[jimb]

I believe my concept is God made and the Trinity is man made.
Jesus was not and never will be God.

John 1:1, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (See my post immediately above this one.)

You: Jesus was not God.
John's gospel: the Word (Jesus) was God.

 

[jimb]

John 14:9, "Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

 

[walt]

No, not necessarily. It is not factual unless it is known to have happened or proved to be true.

Your first sentence sounds like you are agreeing with me, Then you say: unless it is known to have happened or proved it to be true.

Think about that "unless it is known to have happened" or "prove it to be true"

I will try to keep in mind your words..

 

[jimb]

I feel very sorry for people who refuse to accept what the Bible clearly says about the one three-part God. Admittedly, it is not an easy concept to grasp, but it is what the Bible says, and it is true: God is composed of three parts: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

For those who cannot accept this fact, I strongly suggest that they lay down their prejudices and ask God to enlighten their minds about the truth.

(See my "signature" below for an explanation of why this is!)

 

[Trailblazer]

John 1:1, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (See my post immediately above this one.)

You: Jesus was not God.
John's gospel: the Word (Jesus) was God.

the Word was God manifested in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

You can't get it any plainer than that. God was manifest in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. If God had been incarnated in the flesh, then God would have become flesh and we would be able to see God; but Jesus said no man has ever seen God. We know that many people saw Jesus so that is one way we know that Jesus was not God.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[Trailblazer]

I feel very sorry for people who refuse to accept what the Bible clearly says about the one three-part God.

I feel very sorry for people who believe that God is a three-part God.
The Bible does not say anything about a three-part God. That is only a false Christian doctrine.

 

[walt]

I feel very sorry for people who refuse to accept what the Bible clearly says about the one three-part God. Admittedly, it is not an easy concept to grasp, but it is what the Bible says, and it is true: God is composed of three parts: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

For those who cannot accept this fact, I strongly suggest that they lay down their prejudices and ask God to enlighten their minds about the truth.

(See my "signature" below for an explanation of why this is!)

You have a Jewish background, Why do all the Jewish religions since the time of Moses Believe this one thing: One God One Person?

 

[walt]

.

Could you please put together some of your best reasons, why you feel your holy scriptures are inspired? I will do the same.

 

[Trailblazer]

Could you please put together some of your best reasons, why you feel your holy scriptures are inspired? I will do the same.

The reason I believe they are inspired is because I believe that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God who was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The reason I believe that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God is because of the evidence that established the truth of His testimony.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 104-107

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Ebionite]

For those who cannot accept this fact

Facts and religious dogma are different things.

 

[blü 2]

I believe I don't deal in fantasy.

I do not believe that to be true but people can wish it to be true.

The question is easily settled.

In an earlier post, I set out the NT quotes where each of the five versions of Jesus denies he's God >Jesus Failed Right?<.

And I've previously pointed out the absurdity of the Jesus of Mark and the Jesus of Matthew saying on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" and of each of the four gospel versions praying to himself, "If it be my will, let this cup pass from me."

Now I invite you to quote me Jesus in the NT saying "I am God".

 

[blü 2]

John 14:9, "Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?"

John 10:30, "I and the Father are one."

The sense in which John's Jesus is one with the Father is explained, for example, in John 17. John's Jesus, like Paul's, but unlike the synoptic three, pre-existed in heaven with God, created the material universe (because their gnostic version of God was exquisitely pure spirit who'd never dream of dealing with materiality) and therefore came to earth to be the bridge between man and God. Note however that all five versions of Jesus in the NT expressly deny that they're God ─ I set out some of the quotes here >Jesus Failed Right?<.

 

[walt]

The reason I believe they are inspired is because I believe that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God who was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The reason I believe that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God is because of the evidence that established the truth of His testimony.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 104-107

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him on books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission on books such as the following:

God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote an be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me He was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that He could see into the future, so He had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

Aramaic Bible in plain English
But even if we or an Angel from Heaven should evangelize you outside of that which we have evangelized you, we or he would be damned; 9 Just as I said to you from the first and now again I say to you, that if anyone evangelizes you outside of what you have received, he shall be damned. -Gal 1:8-9

Contemporary English Version
I pray that God will punish anyone who preaches anything different from our message to you! It doesn't matter if that person is one of us or an angel from heaven. 9 I have said it before, and I will say it again. I hope God will punish anyone who preaches anything different from what you have already believed. -Gal 1:8-9

Literal Standard Version
but even if we or a messenger out of Heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we proclaimed to you—let him be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now say again: if anyone may proclaim to you good news different from what you received—let him be accursed! -Gal 1:8-9

NSB(i) 8 If we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any message other than that which we preached to you, let him be accursed (condemned) (expelled). 9 We said before and now I say again, if any man preaches to you any message other than what you received, let him be accursed! Gal 1:8-9

Rotherham(i) 8 But, even if, we, or, a messenger out of heaven, announce a glad–message [unto you] aside from that which we announced unto you, accursed, let him be! 9 As we have said before, even now, again, I say: If anyone is announcing unto you a glad–message aside from that which ye accepted, accursed, let him be! -Gal 1:8-9

2 John 1:9-11
9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. NIV

John 14:6 Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.