Jesus is not God

[jimb]

YOU INITIATED THE SUBJECT, for crying out loud. I have never even heard of such an assessment.
Whether your mensa or not, wisdom is an entirely different discipline and awareness. You as a tritheist, could not qualify for spiritual aptitude.

"You as a tritheist, could not qualify for spiritual aptitude."

 

[jimb]

You post seems to be going off in a lot of weird directions. I will just address one point you mentioned more than once.

The doctrine of the Trinity does NOT say Jesus is the Father.

John 10:30, "The Father and I are one."
John 14:10-11, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but if you do not, then believe because of the works themselves."
John 17:11, "And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one."
John 17:20-21, “I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

 

[InChrist]

John 10:30, "The Father and I are one."
John 14:10-11, "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but if you do not, then believe because of the works themselves."
John 17:11, "And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one."
John 17:20-21, “I ask not only on behalf of these but also on behalf of those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

Those are all wonderful verses, but I don’t think they are saying or show…that Jesus is the Father. If they did, then they would also be saying that… believers like you and I are the Father and Jesus. This is definitely not the case.

I think Jesus claimed to be one with the Father as part of a larger argument to show that He had existed from eternity past, lived in perfect ONENESS/Spiritual Unity with the Father, held the same power as God because He is God the Son, and was sent by the Father’s authority to earth for humanity’s redemption.

Believers are now spiritually ONE with the Father and the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit. But we are not God, not the Father and not Jesus.

 

[Soapy]

Those are all wonderful verses, but I don’t think they are saying or show…that Jesus is the Father. If they did, then they would also be saying that… believers like you and I are the Father and Jesus. This is definitely not the case.

I think Jesus claimed to be one with the Father as part of a larger argument to show that He had existed from eternity past, lived in perfect ONENESS/Spiritual Unity with the Father, held the same power as God because He is God the Son, and was sent by the Father’s authority to earth for humanity’s redemption.

Believers are now spiritually ONE with the Father and the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit. But we are not God, not the Father and not Jesus.

If ‘Jesus’ holds the same power and authority as the Father, how did the Father send ‘the Son’.

One equal power and authority cannot dictate, direct, order, command… another equal power and authority!

One in complete power and authority does not relinquish such power and authority.

GOD demanded that MAN pay the penance for its salvation. It is of no value if an immortal GOD should pay the penance for mortal man’s sins.
It would be like a parent taking the punishment for their child’s misdemeanour… it doesn’t work that way (or any way at all!!!)

 

[Sargonski]

I believe my explanation is quite coherent.

As explained .. your belief is logically flawed and scripturally in error .. and of course a raging contradiction

 

[jimb]

Those are all wonderful verses, but I don’t think they are saying or show…that Jesus is the Father. If they did, then they would also be saying that… believers like you and I are the Father and Jesus. This is definitely not the case.

I think Jesus claimed to be one with the Father as part of a larger argument to show that He had existed from eternity past, lived in perfect ONENESS/Spiritual Unity with the Father, held the same power as God because He is God the Son, and was sent by the Father’s authority to earth for humanity’s redemption.

Believers are now spiritually ONE with the Father and the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit. But we are not God, not the Father and

I agree with your definition. It is hard to explain their relationship to those people to whom God has not given the understanding (including quite a few on this forum).

 

[Soapy]

I agree with your definition. It is hard to explain their relationship to those people to whom God has not given the understanding (including quite a few on this forum).

‘Hard’??!! Its IMPOSSIBLE…!!

How can anyone explain a fallacy such that it makes sense?

1) Jesus is GOD but he is the Son of God!!!

Explain that please!

2. a) God is ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’, says trinity
2. b) ‘Jesus is God’, says trinity
2. c) Jesus is therefore, ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’

Please explain the points in 2. above!

3) Trinity both claims that Jesus died and that Jesus didn’t die - which amounts, in trinity to: God died, and, God did not die!!

Please explain the dilemma in 3. above.

4) Jesus was RESURRECTED from being dead (but see 3. above!!!) BY GOD… see 2. above.

Please explain how this can be (point 4. above)

5) Jesus was GRANTED to sit at the right hand of God.., but Jesus was God anyway!!

Please explain the above (point 5.)

Failure to explain (as you so eloquently claim you have the truth and the true believers are ignorant!) will expose you to the very criticism you claim to those who DO know the truth (the silent minority … the remnant of God’s people!). P.s. I do not claim that last part for myself as it is God (through Jesus Christ… which also shows the two are not equal!) which attributes titles to whom He judges as worthy.

 

[InChrist]

‘Hard’??!! Its IMPOSSIBLE…!!

How can anyone explain a fallacy such that it makes sense?

1) Jesus is GOD but he is the Son of God!!!

What else would the only Son of God be but God, if His Father is God? A human father has a human son, right? The Father God has a Son who is God, like Himself. It doesn’t seem that complicated to me.

 

[Sargonski]

What else would the only Son of God be but God, if His Father is God? A human father has a human son, right? The Father God has a Son who is God, like Himself. It doesn’t seem that complicated to me.

Holy carp what you are talking is made up silliness. Jesus is the adopted son of God , .. a man adopted by a God at age 30 .. .. hence why he had to go through a ritual trial and testing .. Testing by an actual "Son of God" conceived by the coupling of two Gods .. your friend Ha Satan.

There are creatures in the Bible from the coupling of God and human called Nephilium .. these are not Gods but humans with special powers such as Perseus .. Son of Zeus .. one of the hero's of renoun spoken of in the Bible.

Any speculation is put to rest - by the fact that Jesus is "The annointed one of God" - The Messiah .. like David who was not a God -- Like Cyrus the Great who was not a God.. both humans adopted by God ..

 

[jimb]

What does one omniscient being say to another omniscient being: I love you? What does the other one say - I know, I'm omniscient


The aseity of God necessitates his self sufficiency - He doesn't need an identical twin, let a lone two identical entities at His side. He's all powerful and lacks nothing. It's the quintessence of redundancy to have three omnipotent Beings in one anything.

None of your analogies work - it's not worth explaining, especially if you're entirely unaware of your deficient comparisons

Clearly you do not understand God. There is no "twin" involved, but there are clearly three entities that are (collectively) God. It is not the "quintessence of redundancy" (great phrase btw), it is your lack of understanding that is the problem.

 

[InChrist]

Holy carp what you are talking is made up silliness. Jesus is the adopted son of God , .. a man adopted by a God at age 30 .. .. hence why he had to go through a ritual trial and testing .. Testing by an actual "Son of God" conceived by the coupling of two Gods .. your friend Ha Satan.

There are creatures in the Bible from the coupling of God and human called Nephilium .. these are not Gods but humans with special powers such as Perseus .. Son of Zeus .. one of the hero's of renoun spoken of in the Bible.

Any speculation is put to rest - by the fact that Jesus is "The annointed one of God" - The Messiah .. like David who was not a God -- Like Cyrus the Great who was not a God.. both humans adopted by God ..

I’m sorry, but there’s no way I will deny the biblical scriptures and revelation of Jesus Christ to agree with your heretical view that Jesus was merely a human man adopted by God.


“The use of monogenes in John 3:16 is similar to what is seen in other passages of Scripture to refer to Jesus as unique. For example, John 1:14shares, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:18includes, "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." John 3:18 adds, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." First John 4:9 notes, "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."

What does 'only begotten Son' mean? How is Jesus God's only begotten Son?

What does 'only begotten Son' mean? How is Jesus God's only begotten Son? Was Jesus created?

www.compellingtruth.org

 

[DNB]

Read post #125. Mensa (capitalized) requires a person to be in the top 2% of general intelligence; Intertel requires a person to be in the top 1%. I have been a member of both.

I know what wisdom is. And because I know that the divine Trinity is real, I qualify in that area also.

I don't consider you capable of judging me, since your assessments of me are obviously wrong.

There's no such thing as a god-man, nor is one required to offer salvation to man.
Adam disobeyed God, Christ was obedient unto death - that's the Atonement.

 

[DNB]

Clearly you do not understand God. There is no "twin" involved, but there are clearly three entities that are (collectively) God. It is not the "quintessence of redundancy" (great phrase btw), it is your lack of understanding that is the problem.

You wrote 10 posts, and not once have you offered an explanation on either an ontological or soteriological level.
You've been indoctrinated - every single one of you trinitarians have utterly stupefied and dumbfounded yourselves with such deranged Biblical eisegesis.

 

[Ajax]

Clearly you do not understand God. There is no "twin" involved, but there are clearly three entities that are (collectively) God. It is not the "quintessence of redundancy" (great phrase btw), it is your lack of understanding that is the problem.

It is you who pretends not to understand. Read a bit of history of how the Trinity dogma was established (which by the way is claimed to be incomprehensible by the human mind), instead of simply claiming everyone else does not understand God.
Arius - Wikipedia

 

[Soapy]

What else would the only Son of God be but God, if His Father is God? A human father has a human son, right? The Father God has a Son who is God, like Himself. It doesn’t seem that complicated to me.

Typical trinitarian… cannot answer straight forward questions did to having to make up responses in an attempt to answer … exactly as I said: ‘It’s impossible to answer … with credibility, honesty, in truth, in righteousness!’

A human child is PROCREATED from its human Father. God does not PROCREATE… GOD only CREATES.

Tell one single procreation that God has ever been actioned from himself.

What you are saying is like saying that a king has a king… NO! A king has a Son… who MAY become ANOTHER KING!!

THE King’s Son IS NOT THE KING that his Father is!

Moreover, THE KING that the Son BECOMES when he ACCEEDS to the throne AFTER his Father dies or abdicates, rules from the eternal throne of HIS FATHER….!!! Be it known to you that:

1. God -YHWH; The Father, never dies nor abdicates
2. Jesus BECAME a King. He may have been born TO BE king but he does not become so until he is COMMEMORATED and CROWNED
3. God is IMMUTABLE (He always IS… that’s what ‘YHWH’ means!) So God cannot BECOME anything other than remain eternally what He is: Everlasting, Eternal, Glorious, Majestic, All Powerful, Righteous … King of Heaven.
4. Jesus BECOMES King ON HIS OWN THRONE ruling over THE WORLD that was CREATED FOR HIM by GOD in the beginning

You aren’t very good at answering questions set to you - but I understand why that is!!!

But please, show me what is your opinion of the four points I set out above (all of them - not just the ones you feel you provide a deceptive answer to!)

 

[Sargonski]

I’m sorry, but there’s no way I will deny the biblical scriptures and revelation of Jesus Christ to agree with your heretical view that Jesus was merely a human man adopted by God.


“The use of monogenes in John 3:16 is similar to what is seen in other passages of Scripture to refer to Jesus as unique. For example, John 1:14shares, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:18includes, "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." John 3:18 adds, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." First John 4:9 notes, "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."

What does 'only begotten Son' mean? How is Jesus God's only begotten Son?

What does 'only begotten Son' mean? How is Jesus God's only begotten Son? Was Jesus created?

www.compellingtruth.org

You are in wild denial of biblical scripture -- particularly when one verse or perspective conflicts with another .. or the Bible conflicts with man made heretical dogma -- you then ignore the scripture that disagree's with your position and then try to project this behavior on to others .. in web of deception as is so common among the minions of the dark side.

Let us examine this perspective you found ?! The Gospel of John does not exist.. but nor did any of the cut and paste scripture from the snake charmer web site relate to the question at hand even if it had existed how is it that you "can not see" this IC ?

The only thing written at the time of the first Gospel were a few letters from Paul which do not discuss and do not relate to the adoption of Jesus. .. Do you understand ? .. this is the "First Edition" .. the original story .. and you are tryint to figure out not what YOU think the story means .. nor what I think the story means .. but what the Author intended the first century reader to understand .. Do YOU Understand ? ?

Do you understand that we are looking at the Story in the Gospel of Mark --- the original story of Jesus .. Do YOU Understand ? Not trying to fit what folks created later in the 6th Edition with Edits,Omissions, and additions .. into the original story ... as you accuse others of doing .. but are in desperate need of Log removal services.

Do you believe in Ha Satan of Job .. with all his Godly powers .. having Power over the earth such that he can give the earth to Jesus.. or not ? .. or do you DENY scripture .. as you are accusing others of doing.

The Gentile reader .. nor the Jewish Reader .. has no idea of any immaculate conception .. no idea of some Trinity that wont be invented for 300 years .. They may know about John the Baptist .. or they may not .. certainly they are familiar with Prophets .. and messianic traditions .. which was very much a part of first century life.

In the Original version of the story -- on the first page of the book .. some man comes to be baptized by John the Baptist. To claim the reader at this point believes this man is a God .. not just any God but "The Most High God" in the flesh .. would be a deceitful falsehood on steroids..

To claim this is so on the the basis of a revision of the story 50 years later ---is not allowed at this point in the game.. Do U UNDERSTAND ? the reader nor the Author knows anything about what you are talking.. and neither do you .. as a matter of fact .. cutting and pasting from snake charmer sites in some kind of spaghetti on wall fallacy .. in desperate deflection from the scripture you desperately wish to deny .. running to John in discussion of the first page of Mark.

So .. baby steps .. once again ... Do you understand that all we know at this point in the story is that a Man named Jesus has come to John the Baptist for Baptism .. During this Baptism a God speaks to this fellow .. says "You are my son" -- and we are told that this is the Messiah - the "Annointed one of God"

At this point in the story .. the reader does not believe "You are my son" .. means that Jesus is a God .. never mind a God equal to the one who has just adopted him. and no one reading the story thinks that this Jesus Character .. is the Same person as this Theos Character.

Do U Understand.. the first century perspective thus far .. that as soon as you say "Messiah" -- Annointed one of God .. this tells the reader that this this Jesus fellow is a Man .. as that is what gets annointed by God .. the Messiah is always a Man .. the Messiah's before Jesus .. and all that came after.. All Men .. and thus .. the reader believes Jesus is a Man .. at least at this point in the story .. and NOT .. a God as you claim . .. that is not what Scripture says .. you are in denial of what scripture says .. denial of the first page of the story .. desperate to try and fit the trinity heresy into the story and we have yet to complete the first page.

Do U Understand the story thus far ? --- Jesus is not a God at this point in the story.

 

[Soapy]

You are in wild denial of biblical scripture -- particularly when one verse or perspective conflicts with another .. or the Bible conflicts with man made heretical dogma -- you then ignore the scripture that disagree's with your position and then try to project this behavior on to others .. in web of deception as is so common among the minions of the dark side.

Let us examine this perspective you found ?! The Gospel of John does not exist.. but nor did any of the cut and paste scripture from the snake charmer web site relate to the question at hand even if it had existed how is it that you "can not see" this IC ?

The only thing written at the time of the first Gospel were a few letters from Paul which do not discuss and do not relate to the adoption of Jesus. .. Do you understand ? .. this is the "First Edition" .. the original story .. and you are tryint to figure out not what YOU think the story means .. nor what I think the story means .. but what the Author intended the first century reader to understand .. Do YOU Understand ? ?

Do you understand that we are looking at the Story in the Gospel of Mark --- the original story of Jesus .. Do YOU Understand ? Not trying to fit what folks created later in the 6th Edition with Edits,Omissions, and additions .. into the original story ... as you accuse others of doing .. but are in desperate need of Log removal services.

Do you believe in Ha Satan of Job .. with all his Godly powers .. having Power over the earth such that he can give the earth to Jesus.. or not ? .. or do you DENY scripture .. as you are accusing others of doing.

The Gentile reader .. nor the Jewish Reader .. has no idea of any immaculate conception .. no idea of some Trinity that wont be invented for 300 years .. They may know about John the Baptist .. or they may not .. certainly they are familiar with Prophets .. and messianic traditions .. which was very much a part of first century life.

In the Original version of the story -- on the first page of the book .. some man comes to be baptized by John the Baptist. To claim the reader at this point believes this man is a God .. not just any God but "The Most High God" in the flesh .. would be a deceitful falsehood on steroids..

To claim this is so on the the basis of a revision of the story 50 years later ---is not allowed at this point in the game.. Do U UNDERSTAND ? the reader nor the Author knows anything about what you are talking.. and neither do you .. as a matter of fact .. cutting and pasting from snake charmer sites in some kind of spaghetti on wall fallacy .. in desperate deflection from the scripture you desperately wish to deny .. running to John in discussion of the first page of Mark.

So .. baby steps .. once again ... Do you understand that all we know at this point in the story is that a Man named Jesus has come to John the Baptist for Baptism .. During this Baptism a God speaks to this fellow .. says "You are my son" -- and we are told that this is the Messiah - the "Annointed one of God"

At this point in the story .. the reader does not believe "You are my son" .. means that Jesus is a God .. never mind a God equal to the one who has just adopted him. and no one reading the story thinks that this Jesus Character .. is the Same person as this Theos Character.

Do U Understand.. the first century perspective thus far .. that as soon as you say "Messiah" -- Annointed one of God .. this tells the reader that this this Jesus fellow is a Man .. as that is what gets annointed by God .. the Messiah is always a Man .. the Messiah's before Jesus .. and all that came after.. All Men .. and thus .. the reader believes Jesus is a Man .. at least at this point in the story .. and NOT .. a God as you claim . .. that is not what Scripture says .. you are in denial of what scripture says .. denial of the first page of the story .. desperate to try and fit the trinity heresy into the story and we have yet to complete the first page.

Do U Understand the story thus far ? --- Jesus is not a God at this point in the story.

‘At this point’… and neither at any point going forward, or EVER…!!

Just adding a pertinent point here:

There can only ever be ONE TRUE GOD… and that is The Father.​

​

EVEN IF the alternative MEANING of the term ‘God’ is used (‘The greatest’, ‘The most mighty’, ‘The Highest’, ‘The most glorious’… SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVES in a contextual setting (look it up or ask me if you need to understand it more - it is good info!!!!!) This ONE TRUE GOD says that He is “GOD above ALL who are called ‘Gods’”. The Devil, [the] Satan, is also called ‘God’… but no one claims he is ‘THE ONE TRUE GOD’.​

 

[jimb]

I’m sorry, but there’s no way I will deny the biblical scriptures and revelation of Jesus Christ to agree with your heretical view that Jesus was merely a human man adopted by God.


“The use of monogenes in John 3:16 is similar to what is seen in other passages of Scripture to refer to Jesus as unique. For example, John 1:14shares, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:18includes, "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known." John 3:18 adds, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." First John 4:9 notes, "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him."

What does 'only begotten Son' mean? How is Jesus God's only begotten Son?

What does 'only begotten Son' mean? How is Jesus God's only begotten Son? Was Jesus created?

www.compellingtruth.org

Reading John this morning, This really came to my attention: "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" John 3:11-12

It is sad and frustrating that there are so many people on this forum who cannot or will not believe us about spiritual things. They claim to know "the truth" but they clearly lack understanding. Perhaps God will "open their eyes" to the truth and they will stop this effort to convince us about something about which they know nothing.

 

[jimb]

You wrote 10 posts, and not once have you offered an explanation on either an ontological or soteriological level.
You've been indoctrinated - every single one of you trinitarians have utterly stupefied and dumbfounded yourselves with such deranged Biblical eisegesis.

Read my previous post, immediately above this one.

 

[Sargonski]

‘At this point’… and neither at any point going forward, or EVER…!!

Just adding a pertinent point here:

There can only ever be ONE TRUE GOD… and that is The Father.​

​

EVEN IF the alternative MEANING of the term ‘God’ is used (‘The greatest’, ‘The most mighty’, ‘The Highest’, ‘The most glorious’… SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVES in a contextual setting (look it up or ask me if you need to understand it more - it is good info!!!!!) This ONE TRUE GOD says that He is “GOD above ALL who are called ‘Gods’”. The Devil, [the] Satan, is also called ‘God’… but no one claims he is ‘THE ONE TRUE GOD’.​

No idea what is meant by "one true god" what are you defining as "God" such that we can measure this truth ?

No need to bother if stumped --- as it is not your definition of God that we are using .. but that of a first century Christian .. and by that definiton .. Jesus is not God .. true Gods or other God.

Now .. who is this True God of the Bible .. what is the name of this True God .. You claim this true God is "The Father" - Hallowed be thy name that you do not know.. Which is fine .. but .. why is the god of Jesus the "True God" .. and not the "True God" of Moses .. War God YHWH reborn or the God Jealous whose commands you do not want to heed and neither does the Jew .. whose God is Ahura Mazda .. the Primordial uncreated one.

and what is the differene in power between these lesser Gods Ha Satan .. brother to YHWH - Jealous - BAAL and so on .. and the great God of Jesus El Oliun, El Elyon, El Shaddai .. or in short EL - head of the divine council in Heaven .. "Father" - "Creator" God Supreme God Most High .. El Shaddai .. and last but not least "Theos"

Let it be understood that the God whose commands are followed is "The Most High" KK .. because .. "The Word is God" .. and it is by that word that we worship God .... and the reason we know that the God of Jesus is not YHWH .. is because he does not follow "The Word" of YHWH .. and for other reasons such as Jesus is a priese of the Order Melchi-Zedek .. which is not the priesthood of YHWH.