Jesus is not God

[walt]

I just did explain my belief in my own personal words.

• I try not to explain my beliefs in my own personal words.
• I try to let Jesus do all the talking.
• Or I let an apostle do all the talking.
• I don't ever listen to the opinion of a human or the words they have to say. Or even myself!

 

[walt]

No, I am not saying that. I am saying those are not the words of Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Peter 1:21, Acts 17:11, Luke 8:21

 

[Eli G]

This is interesting post of @Trailblazer from another thread ... repeated here:

... I am a person with reason, since there is no reason to believe that God had anything to do with the Bible.

This one is also very interesting

I do not consider the Bible stories evidence that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, nor do I consider the Bible evidence that Jesus rose from the dead. To me, they are only evidence that men can write stories.

But this is still more interesting

Cognitively, I believe everything that Baha'u'llah wrote, but sometimes it is difficult for me to believe all of it because my feelings sometimes get in the way of my rational thought.

...and this one

I do believe everything that Baha'u'llah wrote, but because I have shortcomings of my own, my feelings sometimes get in the way.

So, where is the real interest in dialogue other than for the sake of generating conflict?

 

[Trailblazer]

• I never explain my beliefs in my own personal words.
• I always let Jesus do all the talking.
• Or I let an apostle do all the talking.
• I don't ever listen to the opinion of a human or the words they have to say. Or even myself!

The problem with using Bible verses to explain things is that those verses mean different things to different people.

 

[Trailblazer]

2 Timothy 3:16, John 17:17, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, 2 Peter 1:21, Acts 17:11, Luke 8:21

Do you have a point to make?

 

[Trailblazer]

So, where is the real interest in dialogue other than for the sake of generating conflict?

Since you do not believe that anything that Baha'u'llah wrote came from God, is there any real interest in dialogue, other than for the sake of trying to promote the Bible as the only true scripture?

 

[walt]

The problem with using Bible verses to explain things is that those verses mean different things to different people.

Here's what I do, The sentence is written in English, forget for a moment how different people interpret the sentence.

Read the scripture, and let the words themselves provide the meaning, also consider the surrounding text.

And then when you find several more scriptures that provide the same meaning you start to feel you're finding some understanding.

 

[walt]

Do you have a point to make?

Yes all scripture is inspired by God and beneficial, truthful, and the Bible recommends to read it, and then do what it says.

 

[Trailblazer]

Here's what I do, The sentence is written in English, forget for a moment how different people interpret the sentence.

Read the scripture, and let the words themselves provide the meaning, also consider the surrounding text.

And then when you find several more scriptures that provide the same meaning you start to feel you're finding some understanding.

Words do not do anything but sit on a page. It is what we think those words mean that provide the meaning.
If you think that a verse means x, you will find another verse that is similar and you will think that verse also means x.

 

[Eli G]

Since you do not believe that anything that Baha'u'llah wrote came from God, is there any real interest in dialogue, other than for the sake of trying to promote the Bible as the only true scripture?

Since you say not only that what the Bible says means nothing to you in refrence to God's word, but you don't even accept everything BahaUllah said, I don't see how it can be so important to you.

Besides that, until you tell why BahaUllah is different than Joseph Smith, both of them will be just a couple of con guys self-proclaiming themselves to be something that they never were, and ridiculously comparing themselves with Jesus. Com' on, give me a break. Is there anything serious and honest in your posts?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes all scripture is inspired by God and beneficial, and the Bible recommends over and over to read it, and then do what it says.

You said all scripture is inspired by God and beneficial.

That is what I believe about the Baha'i scriptures.

There is nowhere for a Baha'i to go in a discussion because Christians only recognize the Bible as scripture.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That is true, both cannot be right, but why do you think that it is the JWs who are right?
Mind you, all the other Christians also think they are right.

Good point ^above^ because why else would a person belong to a religion unless they believed it was the right one
In a club that I belonged to (back in the 60's) I once took a survey asking patrons if they went to church?
( I should have asked what they thought of the Bible )
Some said they went to church because "it was the thing to do"
Some said because of family
Out of all, only one person answered "to worship God" and I was impressed
However, a few years later (early 70's) in a similar discussion he said he did Not like what Paul wrote
( in other words, he discounted 14 books of the Bible )
So, although weekly he went to a church that used the Bible but he choose to ignore the books written by Paul - 2nd Timothy 3:16-17
As far as I know, he still backs that church 100%

I recall as a child the priest reading to be in fear of him who can kill the soul - Matthew 10:28 B
So, I wondered why the church was teaching the soul can't die when Jesus was teaching the soul can be killed
At age 10 my grandmother died and the priest said to pray to get her out of purgatory, be acquitted of her sins
Why would she be in flames when she was so generous even weekly donating groceries to the convent besides the church envelope
Since the ' one who has died IS acquitted from sin ' (Romans 6:7,23) why 'pay and pray' for the dead
In high school (and church ) both told me destruction for Earth
One day I met a man who simply said, " I have good news for you " He read me Ecclesiastes 1:4 B " Earth abides forever "
Both can't be right, because of what I reasoned and learned more from the Bible I chose that Jehovah is the True God
Not only will Earth abide/exist forever, but so will humble meek people who will inherit the forever Earth - Psalm 37
So, Not a heavenly hope for all people, but an earthly hope for most persons - Matt.5:5

- www.jw.org

 

[walt]

Words do not do anything but sit on a page. It is what we think those words mean that provide the meaning.
If you think that a verse means x, you will find another verse that is similar and you will think that verse also means x.

Let's say you find 25 scriptures and they don't seem to make sense at all, - with any person's given belief.

What if we take a little bit from each 25 scriptures to form a new belief, and in doing this, all 25 scriptures make perfect sense!
Now your new belief, agrees 100% with all 25 scriptures! No disagreement! Just harmony!

This is not easy at first, but it sure gets easier the second time you do it.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since you say not only that what the Bible says means nothing to you in refrence to God's word, but you don't even accept everything BahaUllah said, I don't see how it can be so important to you.

I have my reservations about the Bible, but one thing I know is that it is not God's word, it is the words of men who you believe are inspired by God.
I do accept everything that Baha'u'llah wrote.

Besides that, until you tell why BahaUllah is different than Joseph Smith, both of them will be just a couple of con guys self-proclaiming themselves to be something that they never were, and ridiculously comparing themselves with Jesus. Com' on, give me a break. Is there anything serious and honest in your posts?

Baha'u'llah is different than Joseph Smith because Baha'u'llah was a Messenger/Manifestation of God and Joseph Smith was only a seer.

Baha'u'llah never proclaimed Himself to be someone he never was, THAT is only your belief about Him.

Ridiculously comparing themselves with Jesus, as if Jesus has no equal? Sorry but THAT is only your belief. I do not share that belief.

Baha’u’llah sternly warned us never to make any distinction between any of the Messengers of God (who are the Manifestations of His Cause) because they all arise to proclaim the same religion, the eternal religion of God. Baha’u’llah wrote that the works and acts of all the Manifestations of God were all ordained by God, a reflection of His Will and Purpose, meaning that all the religions are equally true and all the Messengers are equal in stature.

“Beware, O believers in the Unity of God, lest ye be tempted to make any distinction between any of the Manifestations of His Cause, or to discriminate against the signs that have accompanied and proclaimed their Revelation. This indeed is the true meaning of Divine Unity, if ye be of them that apprehend and believe this truth. Be ye assured, moreover, that the works and acts of each and every one of these Manifestations of God, nay whatever pertaineth unto them, and whatsoever they may manifest in the future, are all ordained by God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Whoso maketh the slightest possible difference between their persons, their words, their messages, their acts and manners, hath indeed disbelieved in God, hath repudiated His signs, and betrayed the Cause of His Messengers.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 59-60

 

[Trailblazer]

Good point ^above^ because why else would a person belong to a religion unless they believed it was the right one

That's true, but their belief that is the right one does not mean it is the right one.

 

[Eli G]

I have my reservations about the Bible, but one thing I know is that it is not God's word, it is the words of men who you believe are inspired by God.
I do accept everything that Baha'u'llah wrote.

Sure, you say you're a Bahai... You said something a little different though. See this post of mine.

Baha'u'llah is different than Joseph Smith because Baha'u'llah was a Messenger/Manifestation of God and Joseph Smith was only a seer.

That is only your belief about him.

Baha'u'llah never proclaimed Himself to be someone he never was, THAT is only your belief about Him.

... yes, you said it's all about beliefs. Now what?

Baha’u’llah...

Blah blah blah.

Now what? Since we don't seem to go anywhere together, just stop quoting me, please.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure, you say you're a Bahai... You said something a little different though. See this post of mine.

None of what you said means I am not a Baha'i. The only criteria that needs to be met to be a Baha'i is belief that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God. Baha'is are allowed to have their own thoughts and feelings about what Baha'u'llah wrote.

That is only your belief about him.

Everything you believe about Jesus is only your belief about him.

... yes, you said it's all about beliefs. Now what?

You have your beliefs and I have mine.

Blah blah blah.

Now what? Since we don't seem to go anywhere together, just stop quoting me, please.

Do not post to me and I will not post to you, not unless I see a post where you make false statements about Baha'u'llah, and in that case it is my duty to correct those.

 

[Eli G]

Nothing will change my view of BahaUllah: the same as any other self-proclaimed whatever they wanted to proclaim themselves.
None of them are and never will be comparable to Jesus, not even in their best dreams. PERIOD.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do some Christians have to knock Baha'u'llah down and raise Jesus up if they are so sure Baha'u'llah is a nobody?

I don't have to knock Jesus down in order to raise Baha'u'llah up because I know who both of them were.

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

Nothing will change my view of Jesus, as described on this link: Bahá'í Library Online
Jesus laid the necessary foundation for the Kingdom of God on earth by offering His teachings, which let loose upon the soul and heart of man a spiritual power such as never had been known in the world. Jesus was also the Herald of the Kingdom of God on Earth since He announced the coming of the Kingdom.

Nothing will change my view of Baha'u'llah: I believe He was a Messenger/Manifestation of God equivalent to Jesus, and He was the Promised One of all ages and all religions and the return of Christ, who ushered in a whole new religious cycle, called the Cycle of Fulfillment, because all the Bible prophecies will be fulfilled during the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah.

I don't care if anyone believes that, that is what Baha'is believe.

 

[Oeste]

So, where is the real interest in dialogue other than for the sake of generating conflict?

Sure, you say you're a Bahai... You said something a little different though. See this post of mine.

None of what you said means I am not a Baha'i. The only criteria that needs to be met to be a Baha'i is belief that Baha'u'llah was a messenger of God. Baha'is are allowed to have their own thoughts and feelings about what Baha'u'llah wrote.

Hi @Eli G:

The Baha'is believe they are destined to unite the world under a single, one world religion (their own) through a blending of Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism. Their temples are generally nine-sided, surrounded by nine pathways because they consider the number 9 a symbol of "oneness". A Bahai temple may feature a Latin cross, the Star of David, a 5 pointed star, the Greek cross, or a swastika (a symbol used in Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism). I doubt not that future temples will feature a watchtower or angel Moroni at some point.

As such, while I've find Baha'is for the most part to be pleasant and easy to talk with, I find their teachings confusing, contradictory, subject to change, and as internally irreconcilable as the Holy Books of the various religions they hope one day to replace. Despite their best efforts to read Bahaullah into the Koran, the Torah, Tripitaka, or the Christian bible as some sort of "manifestation of God", he is just not there.

Lastly, as @Trailblazer wrote, you may talk with one Bahá'í and get one answer, and talk with another Bahá'í and get something completely different. However, they do have a governing council:

The Universal House of Justice's responsibilities include:

• Applying and supplementing Bahá'í laws
  The Universal House of Justice applies and supplements the Bahá'í laws revealed by Bahá'u'lláh.
• Resolving disagreements
  The Universal House of Justice resolves disagreements that cause disunity within the Bahá'í community.
• Guiding the community
  The Universal House of Justice guides, organizes, and coordinates the activities of the international Bahá'í community.
• Answering questions
  The Universal House of Justice answers questions from the community Source