Jesus is not God

[Trailblazer]

Lastly, as @Trailblazer wrote, you may talk with one Bahá'í and get one answer, and talk with another Bahá'í and get something completely different.

With regard to certain beliefs, you may talk with one Christian and get one answer, and talk with another Christian and get something completely different. For example, some Christians believe that Jesus is God and others do not believe that. Some Christians believe that after they die they will spend eternity on earth but most Christians believe that will spend eternity in heaven.

Baha'is agree on all our teachings although sometimes we view them a little differently since we are separate people.

 

[JerryMyers]

Do you agree with my words in this post? Do you feel we should listen to any words of the Trinity from the Church connected to the Roman Empire in the 4th century?

Jesus is not God

So they’re the voice of god himself. So they’re messengers. Yes

www.religiousforums.com

Hi Walt,
I don’t believe in the man-made doctrine of trinity as Jesus himself, never in his lifetime on earth ever preached such a thing. So, any words of the Trinity from the Church connected to the Roman Empire in the 4th century will not be of any interest to me. However, any words from Jesus (or any verses) in the whole Bible that imply the trinity or that Jesus is God and he was sent to die literally for the people’s sins would be of great interest to me.

 

[walt]

You said all scripture is inspired by God and beneficial.

That is what I believe about the Baha'i scriptures.

There is nowhere for a Baha'i to go in a discussion because Christians only recognize the Bible as scripture.

I think I understand what you are saying, It would be very difficult to have a conversation between Baha'i and a Christian.

But what if you separate your focus?

• Focus number one: Recognize The Belief and The Baha'i Scriptures that support that Belief.
• Focus number two: Recognize The Belief and Holy Bible Scriptures that support that Belief. - When talking to a Christian.
• Focus number three: Truly recognize If there is a difference between them?

 

[jimb]

That’s correct. Muslims believe Jesus was saved by God from that humiliating death. In fact, according to the Bible, Jesus (when he reappeared to his disciples after the ‘crucifixion’) hinted to them he was not killed nor was he crucified

Accusing the Bible of telling lies? On the contrary, it’s the Early Church who mishandled the Scriptures and lied to the Christians, and over time, those lies were taken as the truth.

If you understand ‘son of God’ as God the Son, then no, Jesus is NOT the Son of God, but a great man and a prophet of God. In fact, according to the Bible, none of his disciples ever saw Jesus as God or that he claimed to be God - they all saw him as a great Rabbi and a prophet of God.

I am not sure what you're trying to prove, but in any case, you're wrong.

1) The Gospels all state that Jesus died a "humiliating death". Jesus never claimed that he was not killed and/or crucified. He reappeared after His death and resurrection several times.

2) You are the one who is accusing the Bible of telling lies. Your absurd statement that "it’s the Early Church who mishandled the Scriptures and lied to the Christians, and over time, those lies were taken as the truth" has no basis.

• The Gospels (plus Acts) were written between AD 40s–60s (Synoptics 40s–60s; Acts 60s–70s; John in the 90s)
• The Pauline Epistles were written between AD 48–61
• The General Epistles (plus Revelation)were written between AD 40s–90s

3) If there is any truth to your statement that the Early Church "mishandled the Scriptures and lied to the Christians, and over time, those lies were taken as the truth", produce the evidence. Otherwise, it's just your (clearly biased) opinion.

4) Jesus is the Son of God. That is what the New Testament clearly says!

 

[jimb]

Hi Walt,
I don’t believe in the man-made doctrine of trinity as Jesus himself, never in his lifetime on earth ever preached such a thing. So, any words of the Trinity from the Church connected to the Roman Empire in the 4th century will not be of any interest to me. However, any words from Jesus (or any verses) in the whole Bible that imply the trinity or that Jesus is God and he was sent to die literally for the people’s sins would be of great interest to me.

Your post starts with the words "I don't believe". So? That doesn't mean a thing except that you, like everyone else, has an opinion. If you read the Bible with an open mind you may discover that you are wrong.

The doctrine of the Trinity is stated clearly in the Bible. If you don't understand it, that doesn't make it untrue.

And what is this stuff about "... any words of the Trinity from the Church connected to the Roman Empire in the 4th century"?

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How about explaining why you disagree with these verses...

1) "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son" John 14:13
2) "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate [the Holy Spirit] to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him[including YOU!]. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." John 14:16-17
3) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
4) "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:3 and "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1
5) "I and the Father are one.” John 10:30

 

[walt]

..

I agree with every one of the scriptures you have been talking about.

I just believe that if we take into account everything Jesus had to say and John 17:3 We have no choice but believe [ All ] Jesus words is our instructions to live by. Thanks for all your words about the Bible, You love Jesus, His Father and the Bible and so do I.

 

[TheFragranceOfHoliness]

Many years I did not believe in God and had no religion. It was not until I met my wife I seen the light. You see my wife was a Born again Christian and to get on her good side I attended her Church when we first met. I started to read the Bible on my own and I was caught up in the word. When I read the Bible I did not even hear or think Jesus was ever God. It was not until I started attending Church on a regular basis the concept of a Trinity.

Who is God?

 

[walt]

Who is God?

Psalm 83:18, John 17:3, John 20:17, Exodus 3:15, 1st Corinthians 8:6

 

[TheFragranceOfHoliness]

Psalm 83:18, John 17:3, John 20:17, Exodus 3:15, 1st Corinthians 8:6

If the Spirit of God is within a man,
and the man is within God,
is he a supreme being?

 

[walt]

If the Spirit of God is within a man,
and the man is within God,
is he a supreme being?

Good question! Your question is a big problem for me, I use Jesus words alone to form my beliefs. Jesus is my rock, My foundation, My truth - I start with Jesus words, And I also read the Apostles words if they agree with Jesus words. [ I take into account all Jesus words, not just a few of them! ]

I try not to form my beliefs from good ideas, or something in the Bible that disagrees with another scripture, I look for harmony with Jesus words, the Apostles words, the Angels words, Moses words and a Voice from heaven, or the burning bush that spoke to Moses.

 

[Jimmy]

If the Spirit of God is within a man,
and the man is within God,
is he a supreme being?

No. There’s only one being that’s different than the rest and he’s not supreme.

 

[The Papist]

Curious what those who deny Christ's divinity make of John 8:58, where Jesus says, "Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple." (Douay-Rheims Bible)

Jesus clearly claims the unpronounceable divine name (I AM) for Himself, and his opponents understand this perfectly: He was claiming to be God. That's why they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

What do you think? Am I missing something? Peace

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There were no eyewitnesses to Jesus,............................................

How do you know1st Corinthians 15:5-6 is wrong _________________ 500 at once

 

[Jimmy]

Curious what those who deny Christ's divinity make of John 8:58, where Jesus says, "Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple." (Douay-Rheims Bible)

Jesus clearly claims the unpronounceable divine name (I AM) for Himself, and his opponents understand this perfectly: He was claiming to be God. That's why they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

What do you think? Am I missing something? Peace

You’re right. He does say he’s god. They Deny his divinity because they lack wisdom imo. They believe existence has always been here and that life came to be through abiogenesis and evolution. They only believe what they can see. They look to science to explain existence.

 

[walt]

Curious what those who deny Christ's divinity make of John 8:58, where Jesus says, "Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad. 57 The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am. 59 They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple." (Douay-Rheims Bible)

Jesus clearly claims the unpronounceable divine name (I AM) for Himself, and his opponents understand this perfectly: He was claiming to be God. That's why they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

What do you think? Am I missing something? Peace

I don't think anybody said Jesus was not divine? John 3:16 explains God sent his "only begotten" or "one and only son".

Then a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him.” -Luke 9:35 New Living Translation

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, -Luke 1:32 NIV

A voice from heaven said This is my Son, my Chosen one, Listen to him. When did Jesus teach the doctrine of the Trinity? When did Jesus teach he was the Almighty?

Why would the Bible say Jesus has a Father over 200 times? Why would the Bible say Jesus is God's Son over 50 times? Why would a voice from heaven say this is My Son? Why would Jesus say I can do nothing on my own? Why would Jesus say The Father sent him and Jesus is doing the Father's work? John 5:26, Jesus says, "Just as the Father has life in himself, so also he has granted to the Son to have life in himself". Why would Jesus say that I have been given all Authority or Power in heaven and on earth?

Yes Jesus is divine! But if you listen to all Jesus words how can we ever possibly believe he is trying to tell us he is the Almighty?

 

[The Papist]

Yes Jesus is divine! But if you listen to all Jesus words how can we ever possibly believe he is trying to tell us he is the Almighty?

Thanks for engaging my post! I'm curious, what do you think is the distinction between being divine and being "the Almighty?" The passage I quoted seemed to imply that Jesus was eternally preexistent... Peace

 

[URAVIP2ME]

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How about explaining why you disagree with these verses...
1) "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son" John 14:13
2) "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate [the Holy Spirit] to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him[including YOU!]. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you." John 14:16-17
3) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
4) "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John 1:3 and "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1
5) "I and the Father are one.” John 10:30

Sure Jesus and his Father are one (but Not like brothers who are equals) but they were one in purpose, unity, faith, goal etc. - John 10:38
At John 17:11 we find Jesus praying (Not to himself) but to his Holy Father that his followers be ONE just as he and his Father are one
Surely Jesus was Not praying his followers be God. See also John 17:21

John 14:13,26 is in connection to John 15:16 B to ask in God's name as Jesus instructed. See correspondingly also John 16:23

Yes. the helper (the holy spirit ) is the 'spirit of truth' helping such as found at Matthew 10:19-20 B ; John 15:26 which comes from the Father even when we don't know what to pray for as we need - Romans 8:26

Yes, In the beginning was the Word
Please notice Psalm 90:2 because God had NO beginning being from everlasting
Thus, only God was 'before' the beginning of anything
Revelation 3:14 B Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God
At Revelation 4:11 Jesus gives credit to his God as being the Creator. In Genesis 1:26 ( Jesus is part of the 'us' )
God, Not Jesus who sends forth His spirit according to Psalm 104:30
Remember KJV was Not the original at John 1
KJV inserts the letter 'a' before the word god at Acts 28:6 B, but omits the 'a' at John 1 even though the same Greek grammar rules apply at both verses.

 

[walt]

Thanks for engaging my post! I'm curious, what do you think is the distinction between being divine and being "the Almighty?" The passage I quoted seemed to imply that Jesus was eternally preexistent... Peace

That is a good scripture you quoted, But I don't form my beliefs from only one scripture or even a few scriptures, I take into account every single thing Jesus had to say.

I certainly don't form my beliefs from Jesus parables that he spoke to people in public, especially when the people he's talking to in public accused him of being associated with the devil. Jesus explains only the disciples are granted understanding and his parables are not meant to be understood. And Jesus explains all things in a private conversations with his disciples.

I form my beliefs from Jesus private conversations with the disciples, when he talks to his followers and what he says to his Father in prayer!
Not any Parables in Public with people that opposed Jesus. Matt 13:13

 

[The Papist]

That is a good scripture you quoted, But I don't form my beliefs from only one scripture or even a few scriptures, I take into account every single thing Jesus had to say.

I certainly don't form my beliefs from Jesus parables that he spoke to people in public, especially when the people he's talking to in public accused him of being associated with the devil. Jesus explains only the disciples are granted understanding and his parables are not meant to be understood. And Jesus explains all things in a private conversations with his disciples.

I form my beliefs from Jesus private conversations with the disciples, when he talks to his followers and what he says to his Father in prayer!

Interesting, this is an approach I've never heard before! As a Catholic, I actually think we have something in common. I believe Jesus gave His Apostles an authority that others don't have. And by virtue of apostolic succession, this authority continues through the bishops of Christ's Church. So here's an interesting thought--in Matthew 16, Jesus promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. This is in a private conversation with His disciples. Since the Church believed almost universally in the Trinity from the outset, wouldn't that seem to imply that the Church was correct?

What do you think of this? Peace

 

[TheFragranceOfHoliness]

I use Jesus words alone to form my beliefs. Jesus is my rock, My foundation, My truth - I start with Jesus words, And I also read the Apostles words if they agree with Jesus words. [ I take into account all Jesus words, not just a few of them! ]

I try not to form my beliefs from good ideas, or something in the Bible that disagrees with another scripture, I look for harmony with Jesus words, the Apostles words, the Angels words, Moses words and a Voice from heaven, or the burning bush that spoke to Moses.

What is your objective?