Jesus is not God

[URAVIP2ME]

.......................................................................................................................................
John 11:24-26 does not say: he that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all.”
Well, we all know that many people have died since this verse was recorded, so that means that this verse cannot refer to physical death.
John 11:24-26 says:
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
..................................................................................................................................
The soul is eternal, the body perishes................................................................................................
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whenever Jesus referred to eternal life, He was Jesus was referring to eternal life in heaven, Jesus said NOTHING about living forever on earth, EVER. This is what Jesus said about heaven and earth............................................................................................................................

I find a model prayer that Jesus gave to all to pray that God's will be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven
God's will for Heaven is: Peace: No war, No crime, No violence, No pollution, No sickness, and No death in Heaven
For God's will to be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven, then we are asking for No more death on Earth - Isaiah 25:8; 1st Cor. 15:26
Even before John chapter 11, earlier at John 8:51 Jesus speaks of never seeing death
The apostles already knew Jesus would die - Matthew 16:21; 17:22-23
As with dead Jesus everlasting life came via resurrection
Jesus knew his apostles would die - John 21:16-23
The 'saints/holy ones and the righteous ones' will never experience ' everlasting death ' aka 'second death ' Rev. 21:8
At the coming time of separation on Earth found at Matthew 25:31-34,37 like Noah and his family, the living 'sheep' will have the opportunity to survive, be saved, delivered, rescued - Rev. 7:14 - thus can gain everlasting life on Earth while alive on Earth
To become part of the humble meek to inherit the Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you see any reason for this conversation to continue? I don't.

My JW friend had these conversations with me starting in the early 1990's. In the end we had to agree to disagree.

I admire their comittment to faith and the organisational support they get for their pioneers to remote towns.

My friend lives a good faith, helping many, visiting many that were lonely and in need.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I find a model prayer that Jesus gave to all to pray that God's will be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven
God's will for Heaven is: Peace: No war, No crime, No violence, No pollution, No sickness, and No death in Heaven

I ask, Thy (God's) will be done on earth as it is in heaven, each morning. I ask of this via the "Glory of God", the Father, thankful that prayer given by Jesus Christ is now unfolding and that the time is near, humbled in the knowledge that the Spirit of Truth has guided us unto all truth.

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I would offer that is metephor for different peoples, faiths and nations.

I find you are Not alone in the ^ above ^ thinking
However, if we synchronize with the corresponding verses to Isaiah 11:6-7,8 we find *Isaiah 65:25 also about real animals
* Ezekiel speaks of a covenant or contract with animal life at Ezekiel 34:25
* Hosea continues along that line of thought at Hosea 2:18
So, true, many with animal-like qualities have changed for the better
Since animal can't be educated about God, then scriptural fulfillment applies to us, people
Thus, both in a literal-and-figurative sense peace will come to exist between us humans and animal kind
As in the Garden of Eden man was at peace with the animals
As it was, so shall it will be

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are Not alone in your thinking, and Jesus did say his followers would be hated - Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:9
- www.jw.org

This at the time when many have turned away from the faith, the many do not realise that they have and that can just as easily be JW's as well.

These verses are more than likely applicable to those that embrace a "New Name", given of God as promised by Jesus Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

My JW friend had these conversations with me starting in the early 1990's. In the Ned we had to agree to disagree.
I admire their comittment to faith and the organisational support they get for their pioneers to remote towns.
My friend loved a good faith, helping many, visiting many that were lonely and in need.

Back in the early 70's a friend's mother who was a UCC Sunday School teacher needed a ride to town
In town there was a rather plain older J.W. man on the main street, she told me that Archy was always in town
Even in all kinds of weather he would be there to talk to anyone who would listen about the Bible.

Another older Witness, in town and at the mall, would use clipped-out missing children's pictures from mailings and milk cartons at the time
He would show the picture to passersby asking if they might have recognized the child

So, yes I too have found that Witnesses do many good things that are not necessarily known

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I find you are Not alone in the ^ above ^ thinking
However, if we synchronize with the corresponding verses to Isaiah 11:6-7,8 we find *Isaiah 65:25 also about real animals
* Ezekiel speaks of a covenant or contract with animal life at Ezekiel 34:25
* Hosea continues along that line of thought at Hosea 2:18
So, true, many with animal-like qualities have changed for the better
Since animal can't be educated about God, then scriptural fulfillment applies to us, people
Thus, both in a literal-and-figurative sense peace will come to exist between us humans and animal kind
As in the Garden of Eden man was at peace with the animals
As it was, so shall it will be

I also admire your faith.

The Quandary faced by many, is that as a Baha'i I see that Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the One's promised in the Bible, no doubt at all.

I see that is the quandary you will have to face, sooner or later, but at the same time, we all have to face how God's Will, is being done.

Regards Tony

 

[URAVIP2ME]

This at the time when many have turned away from the faith, the many do not realise that they have and that can just as easily be JW's as well.
These verses are more than likely applicable to those that embrace a "New Name", given of God as promised by Jesus Christ.

Yes, 'religious waters' ( people ) many have dried up spiritually - Rev. 17:15; Isaiah 57:20

Yes, Rev. 2:17 those with the New Name do Not fear hatred nor the coming judgement because they know blessings await them
They will be part of that symbolic marriage relationship - Rev. 19:7-9

Both Jesus' spiritual brothers (Matt. 25:40) and Jesus' other sheep (Matt. 25:37; John 10:16) will be hated - Matt. 24:9
When the powers in charge are saying "Peace and Security... " that Rosy saying will prove to be a turning point when the nations will surprisingly turn on the religious world - 1st Thess. 5:2-3

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I also admire your faith.
The Quandary faced by many, is that as a Baha'i I see that Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are the One's promised in the Bible, no doubt at all.
I see that is the quandary you will have to face, sooner or later, but at the same time, we all have to face how God's Will, is being done.

Jesus faced God's will being done by his preaching-and-teaching work as mentioned at Luke 4:43
Jesus gave that same spiritual work to do at Matthew 24:13-14
Would you consider 1st Thess. 5:2-3 as the quandary _________________
Hearing those Rosy-Sounding words of " Peace and Security......." can lead people down that old Primrose Path, not to peace and safety but prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Rev. 7:14 before Jesus takes the action of Rev. 19:14-15; Isaiah 11:3-4

 

[Trailblazer]

Remember 1st. Cor. 15: 20,21 because those 'brothers' are the 'first fruits' meaning having a first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All men were made alive by Christ in the following way.

Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.

All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of 120 spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.
Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 118-121

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ the firstfruits - are people who recognized Christ at His first coming.
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming - are people who recognize Christ at His second coming.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Then comes the end of the age, when he (the return of Christ) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (the return of Christ) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Those 'brothers' do Not sleep in death but changed into ' celestial bodies' - 1st Cor. 15:40
That does Not mean there are Not ' terrestrial bodies' physical that will live on Earth

That's true.' There will be 'terrestrial bodies' (physical bodies) that will live on Earth. People will continue to be born and they will live on Earth, but after people die their spirit (soul) returns to God who is in heaven and their the body becomes dust and returns to the earth.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Those in Heaven with Christ govern with Christ serving as both kings and priests - Rev. 5:9-10 Who will they govern over but the meek people who will inherit the ____________ - Matt. 5:5; Psalm 37:9-11

Rev 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The Bible does not say:
Those in Heaven with Christ govern with Christ serving as both kings and priests who will they govern over but the meek people who will inherit the earth.

That is JW dogma, nothing more, nothing less.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Psalm 37
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

The meek who will inherit the earth are the meek people who are living on earth when the kingdom of God comes to earth and their progeny.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Christ is going to govern Earth from heaven.
Nowhere does the Bible say that meek people who have died will rise from their graves and live on Earth forever.

That is JW dogma, nothing more, nothing less.

Do you want to believe what the Bible says or do you want to believe what the JWs tell you?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Would you consider 1st Thess. 5:2-3 as the quandary

Yes indeed as I see that Christ did come as a Thief in the Night, took what was of Jesus and showed it unto us.

The Most Great Peace was offered and rejected, the two subsequent wars and the resulting peace efforts all doomed to failure.

It was then offered that a 3rd conflict, involving many aspects, on many fronts, across many Nations would see all the massed weapons used against each other like bloodthirsty beasts. At the same time this will unfold, "destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape." Baha'u'llah offered this in this passage.

"... And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then and only then will the Divine Standard be unfurled and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

The key thought is, that it may be people who have embraced Jesus the Christ, but are known by a New Name, that are now fulfilling all the passages you have quoted.

This I see is the quandary humanity faces, they do not know where to turn, Christianity and Islam have failed to pave the way to peace, no other path will pave a way to peace but a God given path.

The stumbling point for Christians is that many made Jesus God and that blinded them to Christ "The Son" returning with a New Name, in the "Station of the Father".

For Islam, they have misinterpreted "Seal of the Prophets" to mean no more Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I admire their comittment to faith and the organisational support they get for their pioneers to remote towns.

My friend loved a good faith, helping many, visiting many that were lonely and in need.

I also admire that and I admire their values and the way they live in accordance with God's laws.

The only thing I cannot tolerate are their beliefs about the end times and the afterlife.
I just cannot tolerate these beliefs because they are diametrically opposed to what the Bible actually says.
It is just too painful for me to see people twisting the meaning of the Bible in order to believe in false dogma.
It is no skin off my nose because I know the truth, but for some reason it is excruciatingly painful for me to see.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are Not alone in your thinking, and Jesus did say his followers would be hated - Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:9
- www.jw.org

I'm confused. What does what I said about JW beliefs have to do with Jesus' followers being hated?

 

[Eli G]

I'm confused. What does what I said about JW beliefs have to do with Jesus' followers being hated?

BahaUllah didn't give you an answer for that, right?

 

[Trailblazer]

I find a model prayer that Jesus gave to all to pray that God's will be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven
God's will for Heaven is: Peace: No war, No crime, No violence, No pollution, No sickness, and No death in Heaven
For God's will to be done on Earth as it is done in Heaven, then we are asking for No more death on Earth - Isaiah 25:8; 1st Cor. 15:26
Even before John chapter 11, earlier at John 8:51 Jesus speaks of never seeing death
The apostles already knew Jesus would die - Matthew 16:21; 17:22-23
As with dead Jesus everlasting life came via resurrection
Jesus knew his apostles would die - John 21:16-23
The 'saints/holy ones and the righteous ones' will never experience ' everlasting death ' aka 'second death ' Rev. 21:8
At the coming time of separation on Earth found at Matthew 25:31-34,37 like Noah and his family, the living 'sheep' will have the opportunity to survive, be saved, delivered, rescued - Rev. 7:14 - thus can gain everlasting life on Earth while alive on Earth
To become part of the humble meek to inherit the Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5

With all due respect, I already told you that I do not want to see any more misapplications of verses and twisted interpretations of verses by JWs.
I can't read any more of these. It's too painful.

You keep posting the same things to me over and over again.
Please don't post these to me anymore, because obviously you do not want to discuss them.
You just keep repeating the same JW dogma, like a tape recorder built into a stone wall.

Moreover, I consider stating your beliefs as if they are facts to be proselytizing, so it is against the forum rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are Not alone in your thinking, and Jesus did say his followers would be hated - Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:9
- www.jw.org

I do not hate anyone, even if they do not follow Jesus.
What I hate is the JW dogma. I hate it so much that I can barely breathe.
I hate it because it is hurting millions of people by leading them away from the truth about the end times and the afterlife...
All those people will die someday and be faced with the truth, that they are not going to live forever on Earth.
I can only imagine how confusing and painful that realization will be.
I get very angry at the JW dogma because I care about these people, not because I hate anyone.

 

[Eli G]

With all due respect, I already told you that I do not want to see any more misapplications of verses and twisted interpretations of verses by JWs.
I can't read any more of these. It's too painful.

You keep posting the same things to me over and over again.
Please don't post these to me anymore, because obviously you do not want to discuss them.
You just keep repeating the same JW dogma, like a tape recorder built into a stone wall.

Moreover, I consider stating your beliefs as if they are facts to be proselytizing, so it is against the forum rules.

Since you've been that honest I will be too:

Your comparisons of BahaUllah with Jesus are just ridiculous, and rejecting the Bible in favor of the writings of a 19th century man is laughable.

Your comments are full of contradictions: you say that you do not know very well the things that the Bible says, but at the same time you dare to say that the Bible does not say certain things. On the other hand, you say that since the Bible has many interpreters and different interpretations, it seems to you an unreliable document, but although the writings of BahaUllah also have interpretations depending on who reads them, Bahai or not, you still believe that they are more reliable than the book that God inspired showing how incosistent and unstable you are and how much lack of discernment you really have. .

Yes, Christians can have many differences understandings depending on the group they belong to, but no Christian is going to replace Jesus Christ with an imperfect human, nor is he going to replace the Bible with any philosophical treatise that appears either from BahaUllah or Marx. All Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God who came down from heaven to be born in the flesh, and who returned to heaven. They also agree that it is he who God has appointed as King and Judge of the earth, and that his government is established from heaven, by God, and not on earth by human efforts. all Christians believe there will be everlasting life for all humans approved by Jesus.

So if you are tired of reading us, imagine what we Christians feel when we read you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Since you've been that honest I will be too:

Your comparisons of BahaUllah with Jesus are just ridiculous, and rejecting the Bible in favor of the writings of a 19th century man is laughable.

Your elevating Jesus above Baha'u'llah is just ridiculous since their stations were equal.

I do not reject the Bible in favor of the writings of Baha'u'llah.
I cannot reject the Bible while following Baha'u'llah because Baha'u'llah referred to the Bible as God's holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures.

“We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! “How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also?”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

What I do reject are the incorrect interpretations of the Bible.

Your comments are full of contradictions: you say that you do not know very well the things that the Bible says, but at the same time you dare to say that the Bible does not say certain things.

The Bible does not say the things that JWs claim it says. I don't need to know all of the Bible to know that.
The JWs cannot quote the Bible saying what they believe about the end times and the afterlife and that is good enough for me.

On the other hand, you say that since the Bible has many interpreters and different interpretations, it seems to you an unreliable document, but although the writings of BahaUllah also have interpretations depending on who reads them, Bahai or not, you still believe that they are more reliable than the book that God inspired showing how incosistent and unstable you are and how much lack of discernment you really have. .

I did not say that the Bible is unreliable because it has many interpreters and different interpretations.
I only ever said that for that reason it is difficult to know which interpretation is correct.

"how inconsistent and unstable you are and how much lack of discernment you really have."

You had better be careful because you are dangerously close to breaking a forum rule:
Personal comments about Members and Staff

You are also breaking a rule that Jesus laid out.

Matthew 7:3-5 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Yes, Christians can have many differences understandings depending on the group they belong to, but no Christian is going to replace Jesus Christ with an imperfect human, nor is he going to replace the Bible with any philosophical treatise that appears either from BahaUllah or Marx.

Do you really think I care what Christians believe about Baha'u'llah? Think again.
I am only responsible to God for my own beliefs, and I am covered in that regard, since I believe in Jesus and Baha'u'llah and all the other Manifestations of God.

Baha'u'llah was no more imperfect than Jesus was, since both were sinless Manifestations of God.

All Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God who came down from heaven to be born in the flesh, and who returned to heaven. They also agree that it is he who God has appointed as King and Judge of the earth, and that his government is established from heaven, by God, and not on earth by human efforts. all Christians believe there will be everlasting life for all humans approved by Jesus.

Again, do you really think I care what Christians believe? I believe it is patently false and the ironic thing is that I can prove it is false using the Bible! I have already done so many, many times.

"God has appointed as King and Judge of the earth, and that his government is established from heaven, by God, and not on earth by human efforts."

Sorry, that is NOT in the Bible. That is JW dogma, nothing more, nothing less.
If it was in the Bible, you would be able to cite the verses where it says that.

So if you are tired of reading us, imagine what we Christians feel when we read you.

Do you really think I care how Christians feel when they read about the Baha'i Faith?
This is a religious forum and it is not owned by Christians, so I can post whatever I want to as long as I follow the rules.

What I say about Baha'u'llah should not bother you if you believe it is false.
You can call Him a false prophet till the day you die, but it won't make any difference in God's eyes.
God sent Baha'u'llah so God knows who He is.

 

[jimb]

The OP is nonsense! Jesus is God. The burden of proof lies on those who dispute this fact.

 

[Eli G]

...God sent Baha'u'llah so God knows who He is.

Stop proselitizing Bahaism.