Jesus is not God

[learner Daniel]

Quote


I am not sure what you mean by "special power", but the biblical text does not state Moses was endowed with special power.

There is no "fullness of deity dwelling in him", and while Moses may hold a staff, it is clear that God always holds the power.

Moses has authority over Pharoah, because it is the true God that gave Pharoah his authority, and God can raise up whomever he wants.



God made Moses as God to Pharoah, which is a lot different from saying God made Moses a God.
Pharoah had lots of Gods, but none of them were truly God. They were simply deemed Gods by Pharoah.


Remember, God does not share his glory with anyone, and there is always but one God. This was, is, and will always be true for everyone, including Pharoah.

Psalm 82
Easy-to-Read Version
One of Asaph’s songs of praise.
82 God stands in the assembly of the gods.[a]
He stands as judge among the judges.
2 He says, “How long will you judge unfairly
and show special favors to the wicked?” Selah

3 “Defend the poor and orphans.
Protect the rights of the poor.
4 Help those who are poor and helpless.
Save them from those who are evil.

5 “They don’t know what is happening.
They don’t understand!
They don’t know what they are doing.
Their world is falling down around them!”
6 I, God Most High, say,
“You are gods,[c] my own sons.
7 But you will die as all people must die.
Your life will end like that of any ruler.”

8 Get up, God! You be the judge!
You be the leader over all the nations!

 

[learner Daniel]

The early church fathers were taught and disciples by the Apostles.

Here are some quotes (of many that could be cited):

1) Polycarp (69-155) “yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus”

2) Ignatius (50-117) “by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God”, also “once you took on new life through the blood of God”

3) Justin Martyr (100-165) “prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts”

4) Melito of Sardis (died 180) “because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree”

5) Irenaeus of Lyons (130-202) “He is Himself God, and Lord, and King Eternal”

6) Clement of Alexandria (150-215) “He alone being both, both God and man”

7) Tertullian (150-225) “For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God.”

8 ) Origen (AD 185-254) – “while made a man remained the God which He was.”

For the sources of these quotes:

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

 

[learner Daniel]

Did the early church affirm Jesus’ deity?

Did the early church believe in the deity of Christ? Ask your average Muslim, Unitarian, Jehovah’s Witness, or just about any non-Christian skeptic who has read (or watched) The Da Vinci Code…

thecripplegate.com

 

[learner Daniel]

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

Ignatius of Antioch
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

What the Early Church Believed: The Divinity of Christ

The Divinity of Christ was believed by Christians from the begining. This is shown again and again in the Bible and the writings of the early Christians.

www.catholic.com

Did the early church affirm Jesus’ deity?

Did the early church believe in the deity of Christ? Ask your average Muslim, Unitarian, Jehovah’s Witness, or just about any non-Christian skeptic who has read (or watched) The Da Vinci Code…

thecripplegate.com

Delphi Forums Login

forums.delphiforums.com

Dope Quotations from the Early Church Fathers on the Deity of Christ

A lovely selection of quotations from the 2nd and 3rd centuries where Church Fathers expound their belief that Jesus is God.

burnseyeview.org

The Early Church Fathers on Jesus

When the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) come to your door, if you get into a conversation with them on who Jesus is, you can expect them to leave a tract with you titled, Should You Believe in the…

www.bethinking.org

 

[JerryMyers]

I consider our biblical canon to be the "official" word of God, even if you do not.
This is biblical debates where the bible is discussed. The thread theme is "Jesus is not God". We have been patiently awaiting for you or perhaps one of your cohorts to evidence that he is not God. Instead, we are simply treated to a barrage of snipes and grumbles against our canon.
The onus is on you and others who believe Jesus is not God to evidence that Jesus is not God otherwise your claim that Jesus is not God is opinion. It's an assertion put forth that lacks sufficient foundation, and poses no credible argument.

So yes, this is not rocket science for us. It's simply an insurmountable threshold for you.

What nonsense are you talking about???

The only official stamp of authenticity of any doctrines or teaching comes from God Almighty and His prophets, NOT Paul, NOT some trinitarian authors, translators, preachers, church leaders, scholars and what have you. So, unless God Almighty and/or His prophets, including Jesus, mentioned or implied such teaching/doctrine, then your so-called ‘biblical evidence’ that Jesus is God is nothing more than just man-made nonsense.

Look, it’s really simple, to prove Jesus is God, all you have to do is show us from the scripture, (1) God Almighty said or implied Jesus is God, (2) Jesus himself said or implied he’s God and he preached the trinity doctrine in his lifetime on earth.

If you can’t show that, then YOU, whether you realize it or not, have proven from the bible Jesus is NOT God, so what more evidence do you need?? Ask yourself why you CANNOT show us, from the perspective of God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus that Jesus is God.

So it matters not what we post in scripture. From you POV, it's all subject to the teachings of the Quran or Bahais. You will not believe Jesus is God until you find such a teaching has been made by the Bahaullah or the Abdul-Baha, which makes further discourse with you under the helm of "Biblical Debates" rather pointless. Nothing we post will be "authentic" enough because, as you say they were "...written and spoken by various character figures".

When did I say your posts are all subjected to the teachings of the Quran or Bahais??

And, you seemed to have forgotten that you said, many times too, that this is a biblical debate, so why are you bringing in the Quran or the Bahais into the discussion??

However, as I explained to you before, I am not here to convince you that our "character figures" have veracity or are authentic.

I am NOT asking you whether the character figures in the bible have veracity or are authentic, I am asking you whether you believe all the written and spoken words of all these character figures are true simply because they are in the scripture. Do you understand what I am asking you??

I am here to have honest discourse, and I'm still waiting for someone to evidence, from the bible, that Jesus is not God.

Let me say it again - if you can’t show us from the scripture that God Almighty said or implied Jesus is God, Jesus himself said or implied he’s God and he preached the trinity doctrine in his lifetime on earth, then you, whether you realize it or not, have proven from the bible Jesus is NOT God, so what more evidence you need?? Ask yourself, buddy!

You are not even qualified to ask anyone for biblical evidence that Jesus is NOT God when you, yourself, cannot provide any biblical evidence from the perspectives of God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus that Jesus is God. When you do, come back and ask me or someone the biblical evidence that Jesus is NOT God. Till then, stop asking nonsensical questions.

This means the entire canon is in play, and not just the cherry picked parts affirmed by the Quran or Bahaullah.

Please stand by what you said - this is a biblical debate, so stop bringing in the Quran, Bahais, or Bahaullah into the discussion!!

 

[Oeste]

There is not one single shred of evidence in the Bible that Jesus is God. That Jesus is God is a man-made Christian doctrine

We have shown biblical evidence. It's just that when we do, you claim it's not biblical.

I do not consider the biblical canon to be the word of God because God did not write it,

God to Adam:

"But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."​

Serpent:

Did God really say , 'You must not eat fruit from any tree in the garden'?”​

Woman:

“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”​

Trailblazer:

But did you get that in writing?​

and there is absolutely no evidence that shows God inspired the writers of the Bible. As such, it is only a belief that some people hold.

So our prophets were deluded, and our martyrs misinformed?

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets..." (Hebrews 1:1)

"But if I am doing them and you don't believe me, believe the works." John 10:38

God spoke directly to us, but some did not want to hear.
God wrote directly to us, but some did not want to read.
God sent his prophets, to speak and do miracles,
God appeared in the flesh, raised disciples, bought life to the dead, sent his disciples to speak, write and do miracles, yet you say "If only He had written" and when we show you "If only He had written it Himself".

And if He had written it Himself, and if it had dropped from the sky, what would the response be?

"If only it weren't a forgery"? Which, come to think of it, is about what you've told us already.

This is biblical debates where the bible is discussed. The thread theme is "Jesus is not God".

Correct! Thanks for the parrot.

This is biblical debates where the bible is discussed. The thread theme is "Jesus is not God". We have been patiently awaiting for you or perhaps one of your cohorts to evidence that he is God.

Uhmmm....no.

The OP is simply opinion.

When the OP is simply opinion, all you will get is opinion in return. No evidence needs to be offered.

When the OP comes replete with evidence supporting the OP's opinion, THEN you can sit around and patient await me or my cohorts to refute you.

That simply hasn't happened.

The onus is on you and others who believe Jesus is God to evidence that Jesus is God otherwise your claim that Jesus is God is opinion.

We've given you evidence. You claim it's a forgery or bogus. You do not give any evidence that it's bogus or a forgery. Therefore your evidence is incomplete, and the onus is exactly where it was in the beginning...with you and your cohorts to support the OP's premise with evidence.

It's an assertion put forth that lacks sufficient foundation, and poses no credible argument.

Correct. The OP is an assertion put forth that lacks sufficient foundation, and poses no credible argument, just as I originally stated.

Please note that repeating my argument is insufficient to support the OP's premise. I give no more evidence that "Jesus is not God" than you and your cohorts have.

So yes, this is not rocket science for us. It's simply an insurmountable threshold for you to prove that Jesus is God using the Bible.

You have the wrong thread @Trailblazer.

The thread's OP is "Jesus is NOT God", not "Jesus is God". There are plenty of "Jesus is God" threads on the forum. You must have mixed this thread with one of them:

​

It's apparent you do not hold to the veracity of scripture but have been heavily influenced by the Bahaullah and his disciples. Therefore, what you consider "salvageable" from the Torah or NT are only those scriptures stamped "approved" by the Bahais.

Where did you get the idea that @JerryMyers is a Baha'i?

I am not saying he is. That is something he would have to proclaim himself.

He does not have to be a Baha'i in order to believe that Jesus is not God. Lots of Christians believe that Jesus is not God.

But they don't all believe "Jesus is not God" the same way. You speak English, but if I have a Southerner, Englishman, Bostonian, Midwest, Australian, Californian, or Irishman say "Jesus is not God" you could probably tell which is who, if not immediately, then after they speak for awhile.

 

[Oeste]

I consider our biblical canon to be the "official" word of God, even if you do not.

What nonsense are you talking about???

The only official stamp of authenticity of any doctrines or teaching comes from God Almighty and His prophets, NOT Paul, NOT some trinitarian authors, translators, preachers, church leaders, scholars and what have you.

I consider our biblical canon to be the "official" word of God, even if you do not.

So, unless God Almighty and/or His prophets, including Jesus, mentioned or implied such teaching/doctrine, then your so-called ‘biblical evidence’ that Jesus is God is nothing more than just man-made nonsense.

OH, PLEASE!

The Father states Jesus is God at Hebrews and Revelation tells us He is the Almighty!

There is no simple "implication" here, just a straight up declaration by the Father stating Jesus is God and his prophet doing the same. You do not believe it, because you reject scripture. Your self made/man-made PRESUPPOSITION nonsense gets in the way Jerry Myers, and until you are able to accept the entirety of the gospel, or at least tell us which verses you believe true, which false, and source a reasonable, coherent basis for same, any further discussion is pointless.

Ask yourself why you CANNOT show us, from the perspective of God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus that Jesus is God.

Why do I need to ask myself what has already been shown?

Read the scripture from Hebrews. I given it to you plenty of times before. It's from the perspective of the Father. Accept the scripture as valid. Once you accept that scripture as valid I will be happy to show you many more.

Lots more. "Proof texts" are easy.

I am NOT asking you whether the character figures in the bible have veracity or are authentic,

This is true, as you've already implied many of them have no veracity at all. In fact, you often wondered how anyone could believe these "character figures" if such "character figure" was not Jesus or the Father.

The only official stamp of authenticity of any doctrines or teaching comes from God Almighty and His prophets, NOT Paul,

That's the problem right there. There is no "authenticity" of scripture with you. Instead, I quote a verse, and then you tell US whether it's authentic or not. We went through this before.

Now previously you told us you believed SOME of Paul, but certainly not ALL of Paul's writings. Yet for some reason you cannot tell us WHICH verses of Paul you believe are TRUE, and which are FALSE, any more than you could tell us which verses from our Old Testament are true or false. You point to NO source which you claim authentic, yet you proclaim our scripture is a mixture of truth and lies, and you wish to converse on this, but only if we give your unevidenced, unsupported opinion the exact same weight as that of the traditional/historic church or vetted, academic source!

I don't think anyone here has time for that kind of "biblical" debate, Jerry Myers.

I am NOT asking you whether the character figures in the bible have veracity or are authentic, I am asking you whether you believe all the written and spoken words of all these character figures are true simply because they are in the scripture. Do you understand what I am asking you??

I understand perfectly what you are asking, but you haven't answered me yet. Which of the verses in our canon do you believe true, and which false? Give me a vetted source. As I stated before, I encourage you to give your opinion, but as a matter of credible debate, the reader needs a bit more than unvarnished opinion. Everyone has an opinion, what everyone doesn't have are credible sources of evidence.

I need your opinion to be backed by some credible source, as I am NOT here to simply change your mind about something you have no wish to change your mind about.

 

[Trailblazer]

We have shown biblical evidence. It's just that when we do, you claim it's not biblical.

Biblical evidence comes from the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is God.

God to Adam:

"But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."​

Serpent:

Did God really say , 'You must not eat fruit from any tree in the garden'?”​

Woman:

“We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”​

Trailblazer:

But did you get that in writing?​

God did not write the Book of Genesis. Moses did not even write it.

AI Overview
Learn more…

The Book of Genesis was written anonymously, but Jewish and Christian traditions attribute it to Moses. However, modern scholars often deny that Moses was the author.

The events in Genesis took place before Moses' time, so he didn't learn about them firsthand. He may have received the information through revelation, or he may have used historical sources.

The documentary hypothesis is a theory that the five books of Moses came from at least four major sources or documents, none of which were written by Moses.

So our prophets were deluded, and our martyrs misinformed?

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets..." (Hebrews 1:1)

"But if I am doing them and you don't believe me, believe the works." John 10:38

Maybe God spoke through prophets, maybe not, but those prophets did not write the Bible.

AI Overview
Learn more…

While prophets are traditionally attributed as authors of the Old Testament's prophetic books, modern scholars believe the books were written by multiple generations of authors inspired by the prophets' messages.

God spoke directly to us, but some did not want to hear.
God wrote directly to us, but some did not want to read.
God sent his prophets, to speak and do miracles,
God appeared in the flesh, raised disciples, bought life to the dead, sent his disciples to speak, write and do miracles, yet you say "If only He had written" and when we show you "If only He had written it Himself".

God sent his prophets, to speak and do miracles, but God did not do any of those those other things.

And if He had written it Himself, and if it had dropped from the sky, what would the response be?

If God wrote it and it dropped from the sky, nobody could ever know it came from God, so the response would be the same as with the Bible, since nobody can know that the Bible came from God.

"If only it weren't a forgery"? Which, come to think of it, is about what you've told us already.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

The OP is simply opinion.

When the OP is simply opinion, all you will get is opinion in return. No evidence needs to be offered.

When the OP comes replete with evidence supporting the OP's opinion, THEN you can sit around and patient await me or my cohorts to refute you.

That simply hasn't happened.

I can offer plenty of evidence from the Bible that shows clearly that Jesus is not God and I have done so on numerous occasions. For example:

How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

The Trinity is talked about in detail in the Bible. God is described in the Bible as being in distinct persons. The Distinction Of The Holy Spirit From The Father And From His Son, Jesus Christ That is what you have interpreted the Bible to mean, but it is not the way I interpret the Bible.

www.religiousforums.com

@blü 2 also did a bang-up job of using the Bible to show that Jesus is not God.

Jesus as Christ

Because Polymath, its an advertisement. The question is a guise. Cheers. No, it is a quite serious question. Why you think otherwise isn't clear to me.

www.religiousforums.com

It cannot be assumed that Jesus is God with no evidence to show that.
You are claiming that Jesus is God so where is your evidence? If you have no evidence from the Bible then that is only your personal opinion.

We've given you evidence. You claim it's a forgery or bogus. You do not give any evidence that it's bogus or a forgery. Therefore your evidence is incomplete, and the onus is exactly where it was in the beginning...with you and your cohorts to support the OP's premise with evidence.

You have given me nothing. Stop obfuscating and cite some verses that say that Jesus is God.

Correct. The OP is an assertion put forth that lacks sufficient foundation, and poses no credible argument, just as I originally stated.

Please note that repeating my argument is insufficient to support the OP's premise. I give no more evidence that "Jesus is not God" than you and your cohorts have.

The OP is an assertion that rests on a solid foundation and that foundation is all the Bible verses that were cited by me and @blü 2.

 

[Oeste]

And, you seemed to have forgotten that you said, many times too, that this is a biblical debate, so why are you bringing in the Quran or the Bahais into the discussion??

Because YOU claim our scriptures is truth and lies and you have also claimed Paul is not a prophet!

I CANNOT FIND ANY OF THESE CLAIMS IN SCRIPTURE.

Example 1

You told us that the scribes in Jeremiah had "lying pens", and it's true, Jeremiah 8:8 does mention that the scribes had lying pens. But all that told us was that the Scribes had lying pens. It did not tell us that scripture was truth and lies.

I am STILL waiting for you to show us this from scripture. SINCE YOU HAVE NOT, I simply ask where I can find the SOURCE of this claim you have made, since it is NOT SCRIPTURAL.

Example 2

You told our dear readers here that Hebrews 1:8 is NOT biblical:

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.​

However, when I turn to Hebrews 1:8, there it is, exactly as written above!

And what do you say?

YOU say, with no credible backing, that "But the Son he says..." is not found in Psalm 45. But the author doesn't claim it's found in Psalm 45, and to show it's BIBLICAL, all I need do is show it's at Hebrews 1:8. It's the section that begins with "Your throne, O God,..." that is in Psalm 45, and it's totally ridiculous to claim anything else.

Now it's possible that YOUR bible doesn't have "But about the Son he says" at Hebrews 1:8. It's possible that there is some VARIANT that I am unaware of. It's even possible that the ENTIRE BOOK OF HEBREWS is missing from YOUR bible. But you don't tell us that. You don't source anything. You simply give the nonsensical, innocuous reason that "But about the Son he says" is not biblical when it plainly IS BIBLICAL and anyone with eyes can see.

This is WHY I asked you where we could FIND your vetted, credible source for your incredible, outrageous claims. All our readers have heard are the sound of crickets.

So I found some sources for you. They don't mention Hebrews 1:8 directly, but they do imply our scripture is truth and lies, just as you do, but for some reason you don't like them.

So I will ask you again. Where is the BIBLICAL source that tells our readers that "But the Son he says..." is NOT biblical. If you want to insist on biblical verses, then give us this one. If you want to insist on EXTRA-BIBLICAL sources, like your opinion, then expect readers to do the same.

Example 3

The only official stamp of authenticity of any doctrines or teaching comes from God Almighty and His prophets, NOT Paul,

You claim Paul is NOT a prophet.

Where do I find this in my bible? Where does it state that PAUL is NOT a prophet? Where do we source this OPINION of yours when we can't find this claim in our bible? Can you give us the bible version and where you're quoting from? Can you give us anything but your opinion?

Again, I have given you some EXTRA BIBLICAL sources. They will give you a solid foundation as they MIRROR what you have told us before. If you do not like them, then give us something else than your OPINION. You can start with Paul. Give us the biblical verse that tells readers Paul is NOT a prophet, as the ONLY place I have found it so far is in YOUR comments.

Please stand by what you said - this is a biblical debate, so stop bringing in the Quran, Bahais, or Bahaullah into the discussion!!

Why not? What they say of our biblical canon mirrors your own. In fact, I would say it offers the reader more credibility than that of your personal opinion alone. They claim our scriptures are a mix of truth and lies, and you claim the same. They claim Jesus is not God, and you claim the same. They claim the Torah has been corrupted, and you claim the same. They claim we shouldn't give much credence to Jesus's disciples, and you claim the same. I know of no Christian church that says the same as you do.

Look, either you have been heavily influenced by the Bahaullah or the Bahaullah was heavily influenced by you. I'm not saying you are or have all the opinions of the Bahai Faith, but I am saying that when it comes to Jesus and the scriptures it's tough to find daylight between the two of you.

It's also possible you developed these opinions independently, but that would mean a complete study of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, and you cannot even post which verses you agree or disagree with. Instead, you state there are too many verses and it's unreasonable to comply with such a request.

But if such is not the case, you could provide independent source material but we have received nothing, not even a book you have read, and when you post mistaken notions about the trinity, you simply claim no such read is necessary. Instead, we are left with your sole and aberrant opinion and its curious near unanimity with the teachings of the Bahaullah and the Universal Hall of Justice.

I do not find any Christian church that espouses your views and you have not presented any. What I do know is that I am not going to find your claim that Paul is not a prophet when I open my bible and the only argument you are able to bring into this discussion is an unsupported opinion that we should throw Paul, on your announcement, under the bus along with other "characters", as if your opinion carries the same weight and measure as that of a traditional Christian church.

And yes, @Trailblazer is right, there are many "Jesus is not God" churches out there, just as there are many anti-Pauline churches, but finding both in one spot, with allegations of a corrupted Old Testament, that are lacking a Statement of Faith, whose members are not solely fixated on discussing Sabbath keeping issues, who also throw various unnamed prophets in and out of the biblical text, who casually refer to these men and woman, who suffered as they followed God as "characters", and who also believe that the only begotten Son of God was not actually begotten because "God does not beget"? That Christian church is tough to find.

You claim "But about the Son He says..." is not biblical, that the Father does not speak of the Son as God, that the one who is coming, the Almighty, is not really the Almighty, that the only begotten Son of Man is Man because he is begotten, but somehow, in a head turning display of hermeneutic inconsistency, the only begotten Son of God is not God because he was not begotten.

Perhaps you developed these startingly similar views independently, on your own, with pr without a cohort of unnamed others. Pioneers in their field, real men/women of God, dedicated and humble enough to ask for Divine guidance, familiar with Hebrew, koine Greek, Aramaic, and their target language, knowledgeable of the rich history, archeology, cultural terms, and norms of the day. Perhaps these views are published. Perhaps they're sitting on your kitchen table.

Who knows? Only you do but that's fine.

You bring your opinion into the discussion, I have brought mine. I can show Jesus is the one coming, and that Jesus is the Almighty. You cannot. I can show the Father Himself refers to Jesus as God, but all you can claim is that the verse is bogus. I can show Jesus is full deity, you can only show he is man, I can show the biblical verse where Jesus says "I AM" while You offer the opinion "'I AM' he is not". I can independently source what I believe, while for some reason you cannot. I even found sources for what You espoused, but you claim these are not part of the Biblical Debates, even though these independent sources are consistent with what you have posted on the forum here. So we're left with scripture and sources you prohibit.

I can also discuss a boat load of verses that show Jesus is God, but I see no need to cede or abandon any scripture or prophet based on the mere opinion of a poster. All that does is give us a game of proof-texts and rabbit holes, and I'll have to take another pass on that one.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because YOU claim our scriptures is truth and lies and you have also claimed Paul is not a prophet!

You claim Paul is NOT a prophet.

Of course Paul is not a prophet.

AI Overview
Learn more…

Paul the Apostle is considered a Christian apostle, not a prophet, but some say he presented himself as a member of the prophetic tradition.

Paul was a Christian apostle who spread the teachings of Jesus in the first century. Before his conversion, he was known as Saul and was a Pharisee who persecuted Jesus' followers. After his conversion, he became a foremost spokesman for the faith.

Some say that Paul's apostolic identity and rhetorical agenda in 2 Corinthians were influenced by the Old Testament prophetic tradition. For example, Paul compared his ministry to that of three Old Testament prophets: Moses, the Isaianic Servant, and Jeremiah.

The Hebrew roots movement, among others, holds that Paul was a false prophet and not a true follower of Christ. However, Paul's apostolic authority is well documented in Scripture.

 

[Oeste]

Biblical evidence comes from the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus is God.

Don't need any.

The thread is that Jesus is NOT God. Where's the evidence?

God did not write the Book of Genesis. Moses did not even write it

Is Genesis scripture? Then it's part of biblical debates.

Maybe God spoke through prophets, maybe not, but those prophets did not write the Bible.

Your biblical evidence?

God did not write the Book of Genesis. Moses did not even write it.

Your biblical evidence?

While prophets are traditionally attributed as authors of the Old Testament's prophetic books, modern scholars believe the books were written by multiple generations of authors inspired by the prophets' messages

That is nice. What did Jesus think about the Old Testament? Did he claim it wasn't inspired also?

God sent his prophets, to speak and do miracles, but God did not do any of those those other things.

Is this what our bible tells us, or is this something the Bahais tell us?

If God wrote it and it dropped from the sky, nobody could ever know it came from God, so the response would be the same as with the Bible, since nobody can know that the Bible came from God.

Exactly my point. So it wouldn't matter if God wrote it or not, or even if He dropped a signed autograph.

You would still have the same amount of unbelievers that Moses had when he descended from the mountain with his tablets.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I know, but the readers do, as does the vast majority of Christianity. I'm fine with that.

I can offer plenty of evidence from the Bible that shows clearly that Jesus is not God and I have done so on numerous occasions

No, all your verses do is show Jesus is man, and since he is the Son of Man its something we already believe and virtually everyone agrees on.

I failed to understand why some feel the need to convince the audience of this. This is better suited for those who think Jesus was a fictional character or alien creature. Some believed, like the Docetists, that Jesus wasn't human at all:

Your verses would be good for them.



I'm waiting for the "Jesus ain't God" bible verses. That's what I'd like to see.

 

[Oeste]

Of course Paul is not a prophet.

AI Overview
Learn more…

Paul the Apostle is considered a Christian apostle, not a prophet, but some say he presented himself as a member of the prophetic tradition.

I think your AI may be hallucinating. All apostles are prophets, but not all prophets are apostles. A prophet must submit to the authority of an apostle, but an apostle does not submit to the authority of a prophet unless that prophet has a received a direct revelation from God.

See 1 Corinthians 14:37-38.

Prophets had to acknowledge their authority to speak as a command from God, otherwise they were not recognized.

 

[Oeste]

Hi @learner Daniel,

Some of our "no evidence" posters appeared to have missed this, so I am reposting it.

Thank you!

Nine Early Church Fathers Who Taught Jesus Is God

For those who think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ, here are thirty-six quotations from nine different church fathers that predate the Council of Nicea.

www.str.org

Ignatius of Antioch
“Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

“[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is” (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).

What the Early Church Believed: The Divinity of Christ

The Divinity of Christ was believed by Christians from the begining. This is shown again and again in the Bible and the writings of the early Christians.

www.catholic.com

Did the early church affirm Jesus’ deity?

Did the early church believe in the deity of Christ? Ask your average Muslim, Unitarian, Jehovah’s Witness, or just about any non-Christian skeptic who has read (or watched) The Da Vinci Code…

thecripplegate.com

Delphi Forums Login

forums.delphiforums.com

Dope Quotations from the Early Church Fathers on the Deity of Christ

A lovely selection of quotations from the 2nd and 3rd centuries where Church Fathers expound their belief that Jesus is God.

burnseyeview.org

The Early Church Fathers on Jesus

When the Jehovah's Witnesses (JWs) come to your door, if you get into a conversation with them on who Jesus is, you can expect them to leave a tract with you titled, Should You Believe in the…

www.bethinking.org

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't need any.

The thread is that Jesus is NOT God. Where's the evidence?

How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

The Trinity is talked about in detail in the Bible. God is described in the Bible as being in distinct persons. The Distinction Of The Holy Spirit From The Father And From His Son, Jesus Christ That is what you have interpreted the Bible to mean, but it is not the way I interpret the Bible.

www.religiousforums.com

Jesus as Christ

Because Polymath, its an advertisement. The question is a guise. Cheers. No, it is a quite serious question. Why you think otherwise isn't clear to me.

www.religiousforums.com

Your biblical evidence?

The Bible is not the evidence of who wrote it. That is circular reasoning.

Your biblical evidence?

The Bible is not the evidence of who wrote it. That is circular reasoning.

That is nice. What did Jesus think about the Old Testament? Did he claim it wasn't inspired also?

We don't know what Jesus thought since Jesus did not write anything.

Is this what our bible tells us, or is this something the Bahais tell us?

I don't care what the Bible tells us since I am not a Christian.

Exactly my point. So it wouldn't matter if God wrote it or not, or even if He dropped a signed autograph.

You would still have the same amount of unbelievers that Moses had when he descended from the mountain with his tablets.

That's true but so what?

I'm waiting for the "Jesus ain't God" bible verses. That's what I'd like to see.

The verses below explain why Jesus is not God.

Jesus claimed to reveal God, Whom He called Father, but Jesus differentiated Himself from God:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:

John 8:40 But now ye seek to slay me, a man that have spoken to you [the] truth, that I heard of God; Abraham did not this thing.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

Jesus said that God was greater than He was:

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Matthew 4:10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

How could Jesus pray to and go to the Father if Jesus WAS the God the Father?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Moreover, Jesus said that no man has ever seen God:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Jesus said He was from God and that God sent Him, again differentiating Himself from God:

John 17:3 And eternal life means to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.

Jesus even stated specifically that the Father had knowledge which was not possessed by the Son.

Matthew 24:36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the Son, but the Father only.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Jesus referred to Himself as a Prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

Jesus IS NOT God Bible Quotes... Continued:

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think your AI may be hallucinating. All apostles are prophets, but not all prophets are apostles. A prophet must submit to the authority of an apostle, but an apostle does not submit to the authority of a prophet unless that prophet has a received a direct revelation from God.

So now you think you know more than A1.

You have this backwards.
No prophet ever submits to the authority of an apostle.
An apostle must submit to the authority of a prophet who has a received a direct revelation from God.

Paul was an apostle. All Christians know that. Apostles are not prophets.

AI Overview
Learn more…

An "apostle" is a person who is "sent on a mission," specifically in the Christian context, referring to one of the twelve disciples chosen by Jesus to spread the gospel, with the authority to speak for and represent him, essentially acting as a commissioned messenger with a special task to establish the Christian community in new areas; the word itself translates to "one who is sent.".

Paul did not speak on behalf of a deity so Paul was not a prophet.

AI Overview
Learn more…

A prophet is a person believed to speak on behalf of a deity, receiving divine messages and communicating them to others, essentially acting as a messenger or intermediary between God and humanity; in religious contexts, a prophet often delivers warnings, guidance, and pronouncements about the future based on divine inspiration.

Jesus was a prophet because He spoke on behalf of God.
Jesus referred to Himself as a prophet, and was so regarded. Jesus never referred to Himself as God.

Matthew 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

Luke 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.

Matthew 21:11 And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.

Luke 7:16 And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

 

[JerryMyers]

I consider our biblical canon to be the "official" word of God, even if you do not.

Well, likewise, I don’t consider your words “I consider our biblical canon to be the "official" word of God” to be the official confirmation either, NOT the biblical canon you have today.

OH, PLEASE!

The Father states Jesus is God at Hebrews and Revelation tells us He is the Almighty!

There is no simple "implication" here, just a straight up declaration by the Father stating Jesus is God and his prophet doing the same. You do not believe it, because you reject scripture. Your self made/man-made PRESUPPOSITION nonsense gets in the way Jerry Myers, and until you are able to accept the entirety of the gospel, or at least tell us which verses you believe true, which false, and source a reasonable, coherent basis for same, any further discussion is pointless.

OH PLEASE!

Don’t give me that crap nonsense!
Are Hebrews and Revelation from God and/or Jesus’ perspective?? Or are they from Paul’s perspective and a Christian who called himself John's perspective?? Did Paul ‘receive' Hebrews the same way as Moses received 'the Ten Commandments'??
As for ‘Revelation’, according to www.catholic.com, even the church does not have an official stance on who the real author is. So, go figure.

Why do I need to ask myself what has already been shown?

Right… my bad, you cannot ask yourself about things that you do not have the answers. I can understand that… or the reason you avoid answering that was because you are aware, from God and His prophet Jesus’ perspective, then Jesus is NOT God??

Read the scripture from Hebrews. I given it to you plenty of times before. It's from the perspective of the Father. Accept the scripture as valid. Once you accept that scripture as valid I will be happy to show you many more.

Lots more. "Proof texts" are easy.

Don’t kid yourself, buddy.

Hebrews 1:8 was quoting Psalm 45:6-7, and making slight changes to showcase Jesus as God DO NOT make Jesus God.

As I said before, this is common with the NT Trinitarian authors – they quote OT verses/passages but add one or two verses to showcase Jesus as God.

Accept the fact that Jesus is NOT God. Once you accept that, I will be happy to show you many more.
Lots more. "Proof texts" are easy.

This is true, as you've already implied many of them have no veracity at all. In fact, you often wondered how anyone could believe these "character figures" if such "character figure" was not Jesus or the Father.

Are you a scriptwriter?? Hollywood could use your talent!
Again, I am NOT asking you whether the character figures in the bible have veracity or are authentic, I am asking you whether you believe all the written and spoken words of all these character figures are true simply because they are in the scripture. It’s really a simple question, you know.

That's the problem right there. There is no "authenticity" of scripture with you. Instead, I quote a verse, and then you tell US whether it's authentic or not. We went through this before.

Now previously you told us you believed SOME of Paul, but certainly not ALL of Paul's writings. Yet for some reason you cannot tell us WHICH verses of Paul you believe are TRUE, and which are FALSE, any more than you could tell us which verses from our Old Testament are true or false. You point to NO source which you claim authentic, yet you proclaim our scripture is a mixture of truth and lies, and you wish to converse on this, but only if we give your unevidenced, unsupported opinion the exact same weight as that of the traditional/historic church or vetted, academic source!

I don't think anyone here has time for that kind of "biblical" debate, Jerry Myers.

Tell you what, why don’t you quote any verse from the scripture and I will tell you whether it’s suspected or not. Heck, you, yourself can do this as my criteria to verify a verse/passage in the bible is true or not is very simple –

Any verse/passage that DO NOT CONTRADICT what God Almighty already DECLARED OF HIMSELF, and of what Jesus already said of himself, can be accepted as true.

So, what will be your criteria to verify whether a verse/passage is true or not??

None?? All are true simply because you are told so and they are in the scripture??? Then really you do not understand God Almighty.

I understand perfectly what you are asking,

Damn, you could fool me there. If you do, you sure are NOT showing any signs of having understood.

but you haven't answered me yet. Which of the verses in our canon do you believe true, and which false? Give me a vetted source. As I stated before, I encourage you to give your opinion, but as a matter of credible debate, the reader needs a bit more than unvarnished opinion. Everyone has an

I don't think anyone here has time for that kind of childish "biblical" debate, Oeste. You expect me to go through all the verses in the bible and tell you which is true or not?? You must be nuts!

Since you seem to have all the time in the world that none of us have, and I have told you many times my criteria to verify whether a verse/passage in the bible is suspected or not, why don’t you go through the whole bible and tell us which verse CONTRADICTED/DO NOT CONTRADICT what God Almighty already DECLARED OF HIMSELF, and of what Jesus already said of himself?? In that way, you don’t waste my time and the others here.

By the way, you do know what God Almighty already DECLARED OF HIMSELF, and of what Jesus already said of himself, right?? I am NOT sure you do.

I need your opinion to be backed by some credible source, as I am NOT here to simply change your mind about something you have no wish to change your mind about.

My ‘opinion’ is based on the declaration of God Almighty of who He is, and the words of Jesus Christ.
Why?? God Almighty's Words and His prophet Jesus' words are not ‘credible source’ enough for you???

 

[JerryMyers]

Because YOU claim our scriptures is truth and lies and you have also claimed Paul is not a prophet!

I CANNOT FIND ANY OF THESE CLAIMS IN SCRIPTURE.

Well, yes, the bible you have today IS a mixture of truth and lies whether you want to admit it or not.

And when did I ever claim Paul is a prophet or not a prophet???? If you can’t even get this right, I can see why you would talk nonsense when discussing the scripture!

Example 1

You told us that the scribes in Jeremiah had "lying pens", and it's true, Jeremiah 8:8 does mention that the scribes had lying pens. But all that told us was that the Scribes had lying pens. It did not tell us that scripture was truth and lies.

Are you implying that the scribes did not lie but it was their pens and that’s why God said ‘lying pens’ and not ‘lying scribes’?? Am I having a conversation with a kid here???

I am STILL waiting for you to show us this from scripture. SINCE YOU HAVE NOT, I simply ask where I can find the SOURCE of this claim you have made, since it is NOT SCRIPTURAL.

Show you what?? I think I have shown you everything that needs to be shown but, you keep harping the same old questions over and over again like a broken record. Move on, buddy!

Example 2

You told our dear readers here that Hebrews 1:8 is NOT biblical:

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.​

However, when I turn to Hebrews 1:8, there it is, exactly as written above!

And what do you say?

YOU say, with no credible backing, that "But the Son he says..." is not found in Psalm 45. But the author doesn't claim it's found in Psalm 45, and to show it's BIBLICAL, all I need do is show it's at Hebrews 1:8. It's the section that begins with "Your throne, O God,..." that is in Psalm 45, and it's totally ridiculous to claim anything else.

Now it's possible that YOUR bible doesn't have "But about the Son he says" at Hebrews 1:8. It's possible that there is some VARIANT that I am unaware of. It's even possible that the ENTIRE BOOK OF HEBREWS is missing from YOUR bible. But you don't tell us that. You don't source anything. You simply give the nonsensical, innocuous reason that "But about the Son he says" is not biblical when it plainly IS BIBLICAL and anyone with eyes can see.

This is WHY I asked you where we could FIND your vetted, credible source for your incredible, outrageous claims. All our readers have heard are the sound of crickets.

So I found some sources for you. They don't mention Hebrews 1:8 directly, but they do imply our scripture is truth and lies, just as you do, but for some reason you don't like them.

So I will ask you again. Where is the BIBLICAL source that tells our readers that "But the Son he says..." is NOT biblical. If you want to insist on biblical verses, then give us this one. If you want to insist on EXTRA-BIBLICAL sources, like your opinion, then expect readers to do the same.

As I said earlier, you don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to the scripture.

We have been through this many times, could it be you did not read them or your memory-retention period can't last more than a day??

So, let me say it again – Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6-7 and the author of Hebrews does not have to ‘claim’ it because he did not own it, he just quoted it!

Yes, in Psalm 45:6, it’s written “Your throne, O God ……”, and if you read the NIV version, you will find a footer note on this verse at the bottom which read, “Here the king is addressed as God’s representative” NOT “Here the king is God”!!

You do know the difference between ‘God’ and ‘God’s representative’, right? I think you do, but at this point, I am just not sure of your capability to understand anything.

You claim Paul is NOT a prophet.

Where do I find this in my bible? Where does it state that PAUL is NOT a prophet? Where do we source this OPINION of yours when we can't find this claim in our bible? Can you give us the bible version and where you're quoting from? Can you give us anything but your opinion?

Again, I have given you some EXTRA BIBLICAL sources. They will give you a solid foundation as they MIRROR what you have told us before. If you do not like them, then give us something else than your OPINION. You can start with Paul. Give us the biblical verse that tells readers Paul is NOT a prophet, as the ONLY place I have found it so far is in YOUR comments.

Here we go again (yawnnn!).

Again - when did I ever say Paul is a prophet or not a prophet???? If you can’t even get this right, it’s no surprise that you would talk nonsense when discussing the scripture!

Stop making a nuisance of yourself and displaying your inability to understand what you read! Try to show some credibility in your comments.

Why not? What they say of our biblical canon mirrors your own. In fact, I would say it offers the reader more credibility than that of your personal opinion alone. They claim our scriptures are a mix of truth and lies, and you claim the same. They claim Jesus is not God, and you claim the same. They claim the Torah has been corrupted, and you claim the same. They claim we shouldn't give much credence to Jesus's disciples, and you claim the same. I know of no Christian church that says the same as you do.

As usual, ‘spitting’ nonsense again!

The Quran, Bahais, or Bahaullah have nothing to do with a biblical debate, you are debating with me, NOT with the Quran, Bahais, or Bahaullah.

Look, either you have been heavily influenced by the Bahaullah or the Bahaullah was heavily influenced by you. I'm not saying you are or have all the opinions of the Bahai Faith, but I am saying that when it comes to Jesus and the scriptures it's tough to find daylight between the two of you.

Of course, when it comes to Jesus and the scriptures it's tough for you to find daylight as you hardly listen to the words of Jesus or the Words of God Almighty, you give priority to the words of Paul and the other character figures you find in or out of the Bible.

 

[Oeste]

Maybe God spoke through prophets, maybe not, but those prophets did not write the Bible.

Your biblical evidence?

The Bible is not the evidence of who wrote it. That is circular reasoning.

Then please present your non-circular reasoning.

So now you think you know more than A1.

Of course I know more than AI, just as you and everyone else here does. AI can retrieve but doesn't "know" anything as it's not sentient or self aware. This is why AI is experimental, and any results manually checked.

I do appreciate the fact that you show AI when you give a response. I think that shows your are very honest.

Disagreeable as all heck, but honest.

You have this backwards.

No, you have this incorrectly.

No prophet ever submits to the authority of an apostle.

This statement is an unevidenced proclamation that lacks context. Let's give it some.

The apostles I am referring to are the NT apostles, the apostles of Jesus.

Jesus is the Son of God. He is a prophet of God, and as the Son of God, He is God.

A prophet that does not come from God has no authority, and does not need to be recognized by any apostle, any teacher, or any believer of God. That is something 1Corinthians 14:36-38 makes clear. Not all prophets are from God. Some prophets are from God, some simply believe they are, and some prophets come from other sources. The bible refers to these prophets as false prophets, as the only true prophets are from God.

So YES. If the prophet is not from God, they may not voluntarily submit to an apostle who is from God.

And Yes, Paul was not only an apostle, but a prophet as well. ALL apostles are prophets, but not all prophets are apostles, because ALL apostles are called by Jesus, sent by Jesus, and, after his death and resurrection, were guided by the Helper Jesus sent, the Holy Spirit!

The acts of the apostles are recorded in the book of Acts. Paul had several acts recorded there. As for prophets, Ba'al has "prophets", Zeus has "prophets", Jupiter has prophets, but none of them have apostles.

An apostle must submit to the authority of a prophet who has a received a direct revelation from God.

They do, but only if the prophet is also an apostle. There is no instance of a prophet who is not apostle correcting an apostle in the New Testament. But there are instances of apostles correcting other apostles.

Paul was an apostle. All Christians know that. Apostles are not prophets.

Incorrect.

The apostles performed miracles and signs, and they were guided by the Helper, the Holy Spirit. They are apostles and prophets.

 

[JerryMyers]

It's also possible you developed these opinions independently, but that would mean a complete study of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, and you cannot even post which verses you agree or disagree with. Instead, you state there are too many verses and it's unreasonable to comply with such a request.

But if such is not the case, you could provide independent source material but we have received nothing, not even a book you have read, and when you post mistaken notions about the trinity, you simply claim no such read is necessary. Instead, we are left with your sole and aberrant opinion and its curious near unanimity with the teachings of the Bahaullah and the Universal Hall of Justice.

I do not find any Christian church that espouses your views and you have not presented any. What I do know is that I am not going to find your claim that Paul is not a prophet when I open my bible and the only argument you are able to bring into this discussion is an unsupported opinion that we should throw Paul, on your announcement, under the bus along with other "characters", as if your opinion carries the same weight and measure as that of a traditional Christian church.

And yes, @Trailblazer is right, there are many "Jesus is not God" churches out there, just as there are many anti-Pauline churches, but finding both in one spot, with allegations of a corrupted Old Testament, that are lacking a Statement of Faith, whose members are not solely fixated on discussing Sabbath keeping issues, who also throw various unnamed prophets in and out of the biblical text, who casually refer to these men and woman, who suffered as they followed God as "characters", and who also believe that the only begotten Son of God was not actually begotten because "God does not beget"? That Christian church is tough to find.

You claim "But about the Son He says..." is not biblical, that the Father does not speak of the Son as God, that the one who is coming, the Almighty, is not really the Almighty, that the only begotten Son of Man is Man because he is begotten, but somehow, in a head turning display of hermeneutic inconsistency, the only begotten Son of God is not God because he was not begotten.

Perhaps you developed these startingly similar views independently, on your own, with pr without a cohort of unnamed others. Pioneers in their field, real men/women of God, dedicated and humble enough to ask for Divine guidance, familiar with Hebrew, koine Greek, Aramaic, and their target language, knowledgeable of the rich history, archeology, cultural terms, and norms of the day. Perhaps these views are published. Perhaps they're sitting on your kitchen table.

Who knows? Only you do but that's fine.

You bring your opinion into the discussion, I have brought mine. I can show Jesus is the one coming, and that Jesus is the Almighty. You cannot. I can show the Father Himself refers to Jesus as God, but all you can claim is that the verse is bogus. I can show Jesus is full deity, you can only show he is man, I can show the biblical verse where Jesus says "I AM" while You offer the opinion "'I AM' he is not". I can independently source what I believe, while for some reason you cannot. I even found sources for what You espoused, but you claim these are not part of the Biblical Debates, even though these independent sources are consistent with what you have posted on the forum here. So we're left with scripture and sources you prohibit.

I can also discuss a boat load of verses that show Jesus is God, but I see no need to cede or abandon any scripture or prophet based on the mere opinion of a poster. All that does is give us a game of proof-texts and rabbit holes, and I'll have to take another pass on that one.

I don’t know what garbage nonsense you are talking about.

You need to realize that NOT ALL of what the modern church preaches today came from God Almighty and/or His prophet Jesus. Jesus NEVER claimed or implied he’s God, and God Almighty NEVER said or implied Jesus is God in the scripture. You can bend yourself into pretzels and ‘tailor-fit’ your false and man-made belief into the scripture all you want, BUT it won’t change the fact that Jesus NEVER claimed or implied he’s God, and God Almighty NEVER said or implied Jesus is God.

You claimed Jesus is God because he said “I am” and God also said to Moses “I AM what I AM” in Exodus 3. Well, if you read the scripture, you will know ‘I AM what I AM’ is also “I will BE what I will BE”. If Jesus had said “I will be”, Trinitarians then would claim Jesus is God because he said “I will be” and God did say “I will BE” too!!

Go and read Exodus 3 again to understand the context of that passage, and don’t just follow blindly what you have been told.

You can only show Jesus is ‘God’ from the perspective of other people but you can’t show Jesus is God from the perspective of Jesus and the perspective of God Almighty.

You called yourself ‘Christian’ and yet, Jesus himself NEVER knew what is a Christian. Jesus refers to his followers as ‘disciples’ NOT Christians. The term ‘disciple’ was changed to ‘Christian’ at Antioch, long after Jesus' departure, so Jesus could not have even known that.

In reality, whether you want to admit it or not, you follow the teaching of Paul more than you follow the teaching of Jesus.

 

[Oeste]

"Proof texts"

I appreciate all the proof text @Trailblazer, but these "proof-texts" were answered previously, If not by me then by others. Unfortunately we do not get much in the way of a response. A little time goes by, we get asked about them again, we answer them again, we get no response, a little time goes by, we get asked about them again, we answer the again....
On and on it goes!

So here are a few I've posted which I'll post again. Find your favorite proof text, and see the rebuttal below. No need for me to repost them again.

However, If there's a verse missing, let me know. If it hasn't been addressed by anyone previously I'll make a reply.

Philippians 2:
8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Whoa!

This sounds like a pretty big event here. Who do you say, or who do you believe Christians should say Jesus was before "being found in human form”? It might help our readers if you could elaborate a bit more on the proper understanding of who Jesus was according to this particular verse.

9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,

Above every name? Now that’s interesting!

Let readers know if you agree or disagree with this verse. Perhaps the speaker misspoke, forgot to make a few exceptions, or was over selling the name ?

10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hmmmm…where have we heard this before? Oh yes! Here it is:

Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear. Isaiah 45:23

That looks like we will give the same worship to Jesus that we give God.

Colossians 1:
3 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 ... 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Come, let us bow down in worship,
let us kneel before the Lord our Maker; Psalm 95:6

I'm beginning to see some parallels here @blü 2. But wait...just who is this "Lord our Maker"?

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

"Before" means Jesus is eternal and not created. By him all things consist: He is our Maker.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

What "fulness?" you might ask. This would be the fullness of deity, just as scripture says:

“For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” Colossians 2:9

This tells us Christ has everything that God has, and that all of God's fullness resides in Christ's body. The "fullness" refers to God's complete nature, including his attributes, character, perfection, holiness, power, and love.

Mark 2:
10 But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins ...

This is important! Note Jesus specifically refers to himself as the Son of man here, and not Son of God. The Son of man is fully man and has to be given authority to forgive. After all, Jesus, as son of man, is only man, and man cannot forgive his own sins.

As the Son of God, he's always had that authority.

One more point: Jesus has full authority to forgive sins. It's not the Father forgiving sins "through" Jesus but Jesus forgiving those he wishes to forgive. There is no "In the name of the Lord" prefix that Jesus has to use here, but it all to the glory of the Father because it was the Father who sent him.

This is a great verse to point out the dual nature of Jesus.

Mark 9
36 And he took a child, and put him in the midst of them; and taking him in his arms, he said to them, 37 “Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me.

Of course! When you see Jesus you have seen the Father. (See John 14:9)

Mark 12
28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the first of all?”
29 Jesus answered, “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one;

Again, is Jesus Lord, an is he the "one", or do we have two separate and distinct Lords?

I and the Father are one. (John 10:30) We have one God; one Lord and our Lord and God is one. Jesus, as Son of God, is no less spiritual Lord and God than the Father, however the Father is vastly superior to Jesus Son of Man.

30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]
32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that he is one, and there is no other but he;

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God;

Now why would Jesus say that?

Because of the verse we just read!

30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ [...]

Our Lord Jesus and the Lord our God are the same! This does NOT make Jesus the Father or the Father Jesus. It simply makes Jesus God just as the Father is God.

Also, this is a good time to point out that Jesus states he “…proceeded and came forth from God”, and not the heavens or Mary. He was certainly borne by Mary, making him man but he was also begotten by the Father, making him God.

Matthew 20:
23 He said to them, “You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

Jesus sits at the right hand of God as the Son of Man because he is fully man. I don’t see where this denies he’s fully God as the Son of God.

Matthew 24:
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”

Again, Jesus is speaking as the Son of Man, not as the Son of God. If he wanted to know as the Son of God he was fully capable of doing so, just as the Spirit “searches the deep things of God”. Unfortunately, as soon as Jesus grasps for power the gig is up, so he can only do what the Father authorizes or tells him to do if he wishes to conduct his mission successfully.

Luke 18:
18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.”

Please elaborate and tell us why you believe Jesus is no good, and just where he admits to being no good in this verse. If your premise is correct, the verse should read “No one is good but the Father alone.”

This verse shows Jesus is God, not that Jesus is not God. Jesus can’t possibly be no good when he is “one” with the Father unless the Father is no good as well.

John 5:
19 “the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing”

Remember when Moses wanted to see God?

“And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.” (Exodus 33:18)

And how God replies?

And he said, “Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.” (Exodus 33:20)

Now explain how Jesus, if he is just man, sees the Father and lives. If this is not clear, ask yourself when was the last time you, as man, peeked in on our spiritual Father to see what he was doing.

Either Jesus is contradicting well known and established scripture, or he is God as well as man.

John 5
30 “I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.”

Adam did his own thing, Jesus does not. He only does what he sees (not imagines) the Father doing. The Father doesn’t sin, so Jesus doesn’t sin. That is how Jesus lived his life on earth and it’s what allows him to atone for our sins.

John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me ...

See my answer directly above.

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.

Addressed previously with my quote on John 8:42.

John 10
25 Jesus answered them, “... 29 My Father ... is greater than all”.

This proves Jesus was fully man. Some folks have a twisted view of the Trinity. They believe the Trinity doctrine states that Jesus is God and only God. This is incorrect. Jesus was fully God and always remains fully God. It is only at the moment of his incarnation, that he became fully man. At no time did Jesus not stay fully God. It was the Son of Man who died on the cross for the sins of mankind.

John 14:6 “No one comes to the Father but by me.” (Incompatible with triune concept,)

Why is this incompatible when Jesus is God? He’s not the Father, but he is God.

You will need to elaborate.

John 14:9-16
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’? ...

These verses clearly show Jesus to be God, yet some still say they can't see God when they see Jesus.