Trailblazer
Veteran Member
With the NT, Jesus is NOT God.Without the NT, Jesus is NOT God.
Without Christian doctrine, Jesus is NOT God.
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With the NT, Jesus is NOT God.Without the NT, Jesus is NOT God.
It depends how you understand the word God and how it is applied.With the NT, Jesus is NOT God.
Without Christian doctrine, Jesus is NOT God.
This is an unsupported hypothesis, based on conjecture. The evidence presented is self-evident, dismissing several myths on the forum regarding Nicea.You can't have read your own text critically, too busy making sure it says only what you want to hear.
Jesus, from the standpoint of the historic Christian church, is God in the flesh.
But only after the adoption of the Trinity doctrine, which as you appear to agree, is incoherent, in the 4th century CE ie NOT in the NT,
I've already twice invited you to win the argument by pointing out a clear statement in the NT of Jesus saying, "I am God".
You haven't done so.
And that's because you can't.
that's because because not only do none of the five versions of Jesus ever claim to be God, but all five expressly deny that they are
Your caskets don't match and this argument about several different Jesuses strains the bounds of reasoned credibility.I've set those denials out for you.
Game, set and match.
Please give Benson a pat from me when next you see him.
The authenticated Meggido Mosaic with its inscription does not tell us Jesus is God,
Exactly! Neither "Trinity" or "Jesus is God" is a 4th century construct ordained by Constantine at Nicaea as some posters have postulate on this forum.it tells us in the 3rd century, there are group of people who worshipped Jesus as God.
Likewise, worshipping idols predates Christianity by thousands of years, that does not tell us the idols are Gods, it tells us thousands of years before Christianity, idols-worshipping was already in practice.
Accordingly you accept the reality of Benson, although he's not mentioned in the NT, I take it?This is an unsupported hypothesis, based on conjecture. The evidence presented is self-evident, dismissing several myths on the forum regarding Nicea.
That has never been the issue in our discussions. The issue is and has been whether the NT portrays Jesus as God ─ and since every version of Jesus in the NT denies he's God and never claims to be God, I'd have thought you could have the grace to admit that in this respect your purse is empty."Jesus is God" was a settled matter for the church, as any heresy that "Jesus is NOT God" was quickly dismissed and condemned by the churches, almost as quickly and effectively as done here.
And as you know, the Trinity doctrine is not only incoherent but admitted to be so. That on top of its contradicting the Jesuses of the NT. But I readily concede faith can believe whatever it likes. Our argument has been about whether the NT agrees with the doctrine, and as you know, it doesn't.The major questions regarding the church was never IF "Jesus is God", but HOW "Jesus is God".
And Benson is his pet dog. I have no trouble with you believing as you please, just with your making false or uncomprehending claims about the NT.Jesus was borne of Mary so he is man, and He is the only begotten of God, which means he is God.
Now now! Let's keep our statements honest here. Otherwise people might think you're a sulky loser, incapable of learning.You have not posted Jesus's "I am NOT God" statement because you can't. We, on the other hand, have shown Jesus is God several times.
'Here is a simple thought experiment about the nature of begotten things which I've presented previously.
The only begotten Son of Frog is Frog.
You’re toying with definitions to get away from the FACTS… I know that PEOPLE create Strawman [arguments]. My point was that the Strawman was created from YOUR MIND… therefore, in effect ‘YOU ARE WHAT YOU SAY’ therefore you are that Strawman you created… So, Perhaps you should remember that, which is my opinion of your posts!… an adhomine against your posts!!!No Soapy, neither of us are strawmen.
Please read the post from @learner Daniel again.
It is the DISTORTED VERSION of a poster's PREMISE or ARGUMENT that becomes the strawman. A DISTORTED VERSION of a poster's argument is always easier to support or knock down. The poster is never the strawman.
This may be disappointing, and I'm sorry if it unmakes your day. The important thing to remember on the forums is that while it's fine and dandy to attack a poster's argument it's not okay to attack the poster. This is a rule enforced by the moderators.
Thus, ad-hominems are prohibited.
That was THOMAS’ misconception. It wasn’t scriptural.
I see that you cannot justify a three person GOD by reference to ONLY TWO OF THOSE PERSONS… A ONE PERSON GOD cannot be SEPARATED into three parts and then only spoken of AS ONE PERSON. It’s ALL THREE or NONE - which is why GOD IS ONE is only ever spoken as ONE: The Father; YAHWEH.Because I am responding to posts about the Father, just as I had to respond to your post about the Holy Spirit.
That is a personal attack on me… you said you [plural] are not allowed do that, didn’t you?!If you cannot respect the posts of others @Soapy, then do not expect anyone here to respect yours.
That is false… I make every valid claim.. Your posts just knee jerk ‘invalid’ against mine because it’s the easy way out for your claims. I show WHY your posts are incorrect - I KNOW why your posts are incorrect, and I show it.Your statement is simply a bitter aftertaste from fruite of your own making. You claim we post "nonsense" but you show no credible basis for it. We get your opinion but it is not substantive.
So, you cannot answer… I DID NOT SAY that the CANON was incorrect - I SAID that CERTAIN VERSES in [them] were modified JUST AS JESUS said would happen… are you going to claim that Jesus was wrong… please just answer that question - then add what you want!Sounds like you're convinced our current canon is a mixture of truth and lies because you don't agree with it, and you feel it should be changed to something more to your liking?
EVERYTHING I post is relevant to the discussion. It may appear as a diversion IF YOU WANT to escape answering what I ask you and/or do not know HOW TO answer since you may be unaware of the truth…These verses are not relevant to the discussion or to the OP's assertion. They are simply a diversion.
Oh dear, there’s that statement again: ‘The vast majority of Christians’…I am not posting here to show what the vast majority of Christians already believe...that Jesus is God.
Are you kidding??? The whole of creation, the whole of the Scriptures, the whole of what Jesus says and does, are TESTIMONY that he, Jesus, IS NOT GOD… ‘How do you say, “Show me that Jesus is not God”…? Have you been studying and listening to me for so long and you yet do not understand?’I am posting here to ask what evidence there is that "Jesus is not God". Do you have any such evidence or not?
(Indented text are your words)
That’s so funny because you say you don’t see ‘the Father is God’ and you immediately follow that by agreeing that the Father IS GOD!!!?????
- “I'm not seeing that in scripture.”
- “Of course not. The Father is God though”
No and Yes!!!!
- “Exactly! Any other God but God is a false God. This is why they come under judgement.”
No: ‘GOD’ is a term MEANING ‘The GREATEST’ by context … We use it in every day speech:
… ‘The judge is GOD in his courtroom’
… ‘Satan is GOD of this system of things’
… ‘The Chess Grandmaster is GOD of his game’
Replace the SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE in each of those sentences with another SUPERLATIVE ADJECTIVE and see what its meaning is no different!:
… ‘The judge is THE GREATEST [authority] in his courtroom’
… ‘Satan is THE GREATEST [ruler] of this system of things’
… ‘The Chess Grandmaster is THE GREATEST [of all players] of his game’
The part in bracket sets a CONTEXT…. which is followed by the end part of the claim.
Hence we can write/say:
… ‘Our God is GOD…’
Meaning: ‘Our God is GREATEST OF ALL WHOM ARE CALLED ‘GODS’’
The FALSE GODS… are those whom PAGAN NATIONS make for themselves in terms of carved, hewed.. clay, wood, rock, metal… such as with Abraham’s Father’ GODS, those BELIEVED ON as ETHEREAL (Spirit) DEITIES such those of the GODS of the Egyptians, the Hindus, the Philistines, etc. The true God PROVED to the Jews and at least one pagan nation that such ‘false God’ are useless - do not give your worship to THEM!!!
Oeste, ‘ETERNAL LIFE’ depends on believing in BOTH The Father AND Jesus Christ…. Jesus Christ WHOM THE FATHER SENT!!
- "...AND Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent"
So, no! Jesus Christ is NOT THE FATHER nor THE GOD who SENT Jesus Christ … tautology…
————————————————
Oeste, I believe that you know full well what and why you wrote what you wrote…. My advise is to stop it and write the truth… what we are discussing is [not]for the dispensation of truth and Godliness…. Not for amusement and ‘devils advocacy’!!!
Jesus is God going through a process that God and humanity may be mingled as one.I see that you cannot justify a three person GOD by reference to ONLY TWO OF THOSE PERSONS… A ONE PERSON GOD cannot be SEPARATED into three parts and then only spoken of AS ONE PERSON. It’s ALL THREE or NONE - which is why GOD IS ONE is only ever spoken as ONE: The Father; YAHWEH.
Are you kidding??? The whole of creation, the whole of the Scriptures, the whole of what Jesus says and does, are TESTIMONY that he, Jesus, IS NOT GOD… ‘How do you say, “Show me that Jesus is not God”…? Have you been studying and listening to me for so long and you yet do not understand?’
‘God-man’… how do you justify that claim?Yes, Jesus is God-man. And He came that we also may become God-men.
That is to the extent the communicable attributes (not the non-communicable ones) become wrought into our being.
Many, many places in the Bible reveal that.‘God-man’… how do you justify that claim?
In John Jesus would prefer that we believe His words that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him.If Jesus is GOD, how can he ALSO be MAN?
So, tell me:
And also:
- Is Jesus LESS THAN GOD because Jesus is tainted with fallible flesh (‘see me, touch me, … I am flesh and bone’)
- Is Jesus GREATER THAN GOD exactly because Jesus is BOTH GOD AND MAN?
Thanks in advance for your reply… They are gonna be interesting!!!
- Is the Father LESS THAN Jesus BECAUSE he cannot be FLESH AND BONE?
- What is the SPIRIT OF GOD… how is the Spirit of God … a PERSON? Is YOUR SPIRIT (the Spirit of YOU) also another Person?
Lol, nothing in your post addresses the points I made or the scripture quoted. Instead we still have a supposed variety of Jesuses, a continued misunderstanding of the church's meaning of "mystery", an unproven assertion that the virgin birth is nonsense, that Jesus's Father was human, and a seeming inability to answer straight forward questions in a logically deductive and/or consistent manner.Really, the NT is supposed to be your book ─ yo should read it some time.
That's because nothing you posted was relevant to the point we've been debating.Lol, nothing in your post addresses the points I made or the scripture quoted.
No, you have an authentic variety of NT Jesuses, fivefold, as I've shown you.Instead we still have a supposed variety of Jesuses
Typically of the way you argue here, you make this assertion but fail to provide "the church's meaning of 'mystery' ─ and seem to have missed altogether the fact that the churches say the Trinity is not simply a 'mystery' but 'a mystery in the strict sense' ─ the church's own definition of which I quoted in my linked post on the Trinity. (Here's that link again: >Why So Much Trinity Bashing?<)a continued misunderstanding of the church's meaning of "mystery"
How, in your view, can such a story can be true? What objective test will tell you whether a male child got his Y-chromosome from a supernatural being or not?an unproven assertion that the virgin birth is nonsense
So all your arguments (a) rely on word games and (b) ignore the various express denials by each version of Jesus that he's God.Three times Jesus tells us only God is good, and only once does Jesus tell us who is good...and that when he refers to himself as the good shepherd.
No there are NOT!That's because nothing you posted was relevant to the point we've been debating.
Which is simply that there are five versions of Jesus in the NT, and that each of them denies that he's God and none of them ever claims to be God,
No He is not less than God. He is God expressing Himself as a limited, created man.So, tell me:
- Is Jesus LESS THAN GOD because Jesus is tainted with fallible flesh (‘see me, touch me, … I am flesh and bone’)
The way I would put it is that it is "greater" that God be dispensed into man than God not be.
- Is Jesus GREATER THAN GOD exactly because Jesus is BOTH GOD AND MAN?
In your next post to me could you explain how Jehovah God came and had lunch with Abraham in Genesis 18?And also:
- Is the Father LESS THAN Jesus BECAUSE he cannot be FLESH AND BONE?
I don't know where Trinitarians got the idea of a Jesus who has no God to worship, but it wasn't from the Bible. Jesus, the real one, is a servant of God:No He is not less than God. He is God expressing Himself as a limited, created man...
By simply reading the NT it is revealed Jesus worshipped the Father.I don't know where Trinitarians got the idea of a Jesus who has no God to worship, but it wasn't from the Bible. Jesus, the real one, is a servant of God: