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Jesus: The Missing Years in the East

godnotgod

Thou art That
More evidence.....


Aramaic You/She Will Call (Matthew 1:21 vs Luke 1:31)

As you read through this lesson, ask yourself the question, Which Came First - Aramaic or Greek? Which one is a translation of the other? Is Aramaic Primacy or Greek Primacy correct?

To help answer that question, look at the following verses from the [Greek] New Testament:

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (KJV)
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. (NIV)

Luke 1:31
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (KJV)
You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. (NIV)

You probably missed it because the verses are so familiar, but there is a conflict in those two verses. Matthew 1:21 says that she (Mary) will give birth to a son, and you (Joseph) will call his name Jesus. In Luke 1:31, however, the angel is talking to Mary. The angel says you (Mary) will be with child, and you (Mary) will call his name Jesus. So Matthew says that Joseph named Jesus, yet the angel in Luke commands Mary to name him. Which verse is correct - did Mary or Joseph name Jesus?

If you trace the various Greek and Latin manuscripts, you find that there is a split here. Some manuscripts say she (Mary) will call his name Jesus, while some manuscripts say you (Joseph) will name Jesus. Greek and Latin have completely different forms for these variants. The split between you will call and she will call is reflected in several English versions.

Now, at this point most people will explain away the difference by suggesting that perhaps they agreed to name Jesus together. Fine. Maybe they did. But the question is - how did this conflict get into an inspired text in the first place? Isn't the New Testament the inspired Word of God, incapable of error?

Well, it just so happens that if we look at the Aramaic Pe****ta, there is no conflict at all. In fact the Aramaic Pe****ta explains how this variant reading could have occurred in the first place. In the Aramaic New Testament, both verses use the verb form tikra. If you know Hebrew or Aramaic, you will instantly realize that tikra comes from the verb kara, meaning to call. In both Hebrew and Aramaic, tikra can either be you will call (masculine singular), or she will call (feminine singular).

Thus, the Aramaic Pe****ta actually has an ambiguous form here. It could mean either she (Mary) will call, or you (Joseph) will call. Only the context can determine which is correct. In the context, given that Mary is being addressed by the angel, it has to mean she will call.

However, consider this conflict in the light of the question, Which Came First - Aramaic or Greek? This conflict, or textual variant, only occurs in Greek and Latin manuscripts. There is no conflict in the Aramaic Pe****ta, just an ambiguous form that could be translated she will call or you will call, and which needs to be resolved by the context. Surely this means that the Aramaic Pe****ta must have come first, and Greek and Latin translated from it? Otherwise, how would those variants have arisen in Greek?

Suppose, for instance, that the New Testament was originally written in Greek. Let's say the original Greek manuscript said you will call his name Jesus. Why in the world could/would that ever be changed to she will call?! That is a completely different form in Greek!

If, on the other hand, the Aramaic Pe****ta came first, it is easy to see what has happened. Aramaic, of necessity, has an ambiguous form that needs to be resolved by the context. Some time later, it was translated into Greek, then Latin. Some translators looked at the form in Aramaic, and translated it as she will call. Other translators translated it as you will call. Or maybe it got revised later, because that's what you do with translations - you change things later based on re-reading the original text.

The point here is simply this. A reasonable person, presented with the above evidence, would have to conclude that the Aramaic Pe****ta came first, and the Greek and Latin manuscripts were translated from it. There is no conflict in Aramaic, yet the Greek/Latin has very different words that are easily explained if they have been translated from the Aramaic Pe****ta. In fact, this surely suggests that the Greek was translated considerably later, when presented with a written Aramaic Pe****ta text. Otherwise, a translator would surely just go back to one of the disciples and ask them what was meant in this verse - she will call, or you will call?

Examples like this, where problems/conflicts/variants in the Greek text of the New Testament simply do not occur in the Aramaic Pe****ta, and indeed variants in Greek suggest that Greek has been translated from the Aramaic Pe****ta, must surely be evidence that the Aramaic Pe****ta came first. It happens so often, and so neatly, that a reasonable person must conclude that the Greek text has been translated from the Aramaic Pe****ta, and not the other way round.

Aramaic Primacy is an evidence-based belief, and the evidence points to the Aramaic Pe****ta as being the original text of the New Testament from which Greek has been translated, then Latin and English.

Who named Yeshua? Pearls of the Pe****ta (Aramaic New Testament).
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
So Theologians and Bible scholars are cool when they back up your point of view, but when they don't support your point of view their no good. Lol, everything is a matter of opinion, Sorry. ;)

No, not if you're paying attention. We in the West have twisted the true meaning of Greek debate, where there is a clear outcome, changing it into a situation where the debate itself is the goal, and so we think we're being really sophisticated when we say: "Everything is a matter of opinion". BS.

I mean, c'mon! If you won't respect my view, here are just a few of the big names weighing in on Paul: Kierkegaard, Durant, Frost, Baldwin, Buber, Gibran, Jefferson, Gandhi, Jung, Shaw, Schweitzer, Mencken...these are no small potatoes. Did you even look at the link I gave you about their comments on Paul?

It's not that prominent theologians and Bible scholars back my view, it's that I back their view, because I also see the problem with Paul, based on evidence. Here is some good reading for you:


The Problem of Paul


I personally believe Paul might have met Jesus in person, so it is very possible for me that he was privy to messages from Jesus.

from a Christian website:


There’s no indication from Scripture that Paul and Jesus ever met before the Damascus Road incident. And Acts 9:4-7 doesn’t specify whether the Lord’s encounter with Paul was physical or not. It only says Paul saw a bright light and heard a voice. The men with him heard a loud sound but didn’t see anything. In subsequent re-tellings of the encounter Paul never indicated that He had actually seen Jesus at that time.

...Paul recounted all the Lord’s post resurrection appearances, he included himself as one who had seen Him. So, at some point, he apparently did have a physical meeting with the Lord.

...which is actually a twisting of Paul's words, which are:

Corinthians 15***

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.


First of all, Paul claims that Jesus was seen 'by the twelve' which would include Judas, but Judas betrayed Jesus and hung himself. Common Christian belief is that Judas went to hell. So how can he be included in the twelve?

Secondly, Paul's claim to have seen Jesus does not refer to a physical encounter with Jesus while Jesus was still alive, but to a vision of him after his death.

Paul want to include himself desperately with those who were privy to seeing him. But his desperation is telltale when he says:


'Then last of all He was seen by me also'

...the unnecessary addition of the word 'also' being the clue to Paul's fabrication. Having been against Jesus in his earlier life, he is in dire need of forgiveness, as he goes on to testify as to his unworthiness. But it all smacks of a false humility, a reverse form of spiritual pride, where one is holier than thou by being more unworthy than thou.

Or it is nothing but knowledge, research, logic, thinking, reason, analysis, and investigation?

Naw, more like 'much ado about nothing'.

For some, for others they are used to build upon the ultimate reality that they have come to realize. Once you reach the ultimate reality you can choose to stay there, as many do, or you can build upon it with a "firm foundation" so to speak.

OMG, now you're being totally ridiculous! Use your noggin: if something is the Ultimate Reality, there is nothing you can add to it. It is complete. It is the foundation itself. OK, buddy. Get off the potty. Next!

Naw my rational mind has actually merged with my "knowing mind" or whatever you wan't to call it, realizes that they don't represent reality, but at the same time they actually do.

Let me know when both your minds come to the mutual realization that they don't exist in actuality. Then we can talk.

The easist sense to trick is sight, in whatever aspect you wan't to define it. It's all about feeling for me.

My God, if you had any spiritual insight at all, you would know I was not referring to physical eyesight, fer Gawdzsakes!

IN order to demonstrate your validation to others, personal experience matters not. As for validation for your self, personal experience is the only thing that matters, and in the end personal experience is the only proof that one can truly have.

Absolutely wrong! In the experience of Higher Consciousness, the personal is no more. It is the impersonal that matters. Look at my avatar. See the candle that is extinguished? That is what Nirvana means: the self-created notion of a personal, individual 'self' is no more. 'My mind' is no more. It never existed to begin with. It is now universal consciousness.

The problem is a thought is characterized by brain activity, so you can't, "not be thinking". At it's most basic level, thought is the transfer of matter from one state to another to induce this thought, so it could be argued that there is nothing in the universe that is "not thinking". Except for maybe, the stuff that is in between matter, but that's a whole nother can o' worms.

Thought is not an absolute. Where there is thought, it exists against the background of 'no-thought'; it comes into being from the thought-less state, just as a wave-form comes into being from the form-less sea.

But the problem with Spinoza is not thought, but the "I" that thinks. There is no thinker of thoughts called "I". That is delusional.


Indeed, I would agree with this aspect of the assertation. Steadfast attachment to any conclusion, whether reached by intuition or logic, is harmful. And I would also agree that it is far more common, especially in the west, that attachment to an idea would be caused by a logical conclusion, because it seems as though physical evidence would be present where intuition can sometimes be in just the mind, where it makes it much easier to disregard physical attachment.

Because the world of logic and reason work only with verifiable facts, it tends to frown on the intuitive pathway as being invalid. The rational mind likes things that are neat, square, predictable, and black and white it can sink its teeth into; it hates the nebulous, the miasmic, the unpredictable. But bear in mind that, in terms of Higher Consciousness, the intuitive mind is not the goal, but the pathway to the goal of Higher Consciousness.

Here's a bit of humor for you:


[youtube]XXi_ldNRNtM[/youtube]
Prickles & Goo: Alan Watts Trey Parker Matt Stone South Park - YouTube
 
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oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Originally Posted by godnotgod
Excuse me, but 'this guy', Paul Younan, is a native Assyrian who spoke Aramaic since his youth, is an Aramaic scholar, and translator of the Pe****ta in an online project, here:
Pe****ta Aramaic/English Interlinear New Testament

QUESTION..... The Pe****ta Aramaic Gospels...... for whom were they written? Were they written for an Aramaic speaking readership, or Greek, or Latin..... ?????????????????

Go on then....... tell me...... For whom were the Aramaic gospels written? Which language speakers? You're writing huge posts to others, so how about a one sentence answer to me?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wouldn't say this is true of the majority of mystics or scholars, though. :)
Certainly not mystics. I've met plenty of scientists who claim that religious/spiritual people know nothing about reality. I've never met another mystic claiming that scientists don't understand science.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Matthew 1:21 says that she (Mary) will give birth to a son, and you (Joseph) will call his name Jesus. In Luke 1:31, however, the angel is talking to Mary. The angel says you (Mary) will be with child, and you (Mary) will call his name Jesus.
Matthew and Luke have identical clauses in the Greek NT: καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν/and you shall call the name of him Jesus. They don't in the Pe****ta.
Which makes this:

Well, it just so happens that if we look at the Aramaic Pe****ta, there is no conflict at all. In fact the Aramaic Pe****ta explains how this variant reading could have occurred in the first place. In the Aramaic New Testament, both verses use the verb form tikra. If you know Hebrew or Aramaic, you will instantly realize that tikra comes from the verb kara, meaning to call. In both Hebrew and Aramaic, tikra can either be you will call (masculine singular), or she will call (feminine singular).
Idiotic. The Greek verb kaleseis has no gender. It cannot be rendered "she will call" anymore than the English pronoun "you" can be rendered "she". Whether it is Mary or Joseph is understood from context as the Greek in Matthew reads τέξεται δὲ υἱὸν καὶ καλέσεις τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν/"and [she] will bear a son and you shall call the name of him Jesus". The gender of the person who will bear a son is given not by grammar but by actual gender: guys don't get pregnant (Arnold Schwarzenegger being the exception). The exact same thing is true of the Pe****ta.
Thus, the Aramaic Pe****ta actually has an ambiguous form here
This is a flat out lie. Not only is it wrong (the form isn't ambiguous and differs in Matthew from the form in Luke), but only a Semitic language like Syriac (the language of the Pe****ta) could not have an ambiguous form. Semitic languages have verbs with grammatical gender. Greek (like every other IE language including English) does not have verbs with grammatical gender. It is necessarily ambiguous while Syriac is not. Neither is Aramaic. This is ludicrous.



However, consider this conflict in the light of the question, Which Came First - Aramaic or Greek?

Considering the Pe****ta has Greek words in it, I'd say that takes the cake a lot more than nebulous pattern matchings in the extant Syriac manuscripts of the Pe****ta (about 350 last I checked).


Otherwise, a translator would surely just go back to one of the disciples and ask them what was meant in this verse - she will call, or you will call?
My god. This is beyond idiotic.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, it just so happens that if we look at the Aramaic Pe****ta, there is no conflict at all. In fact the Aramaic Pe****ta explains how this variant reading could have occurred in the first place. In the Aramaic New Testament, both verses use the verb form tikra.
This is a lie. tikra is the "lexicon" form, not the form used in the text. In Matthew 1:21, for example, the actual word form used is ܘܬܩܪܐ. In Luke 1.31, the verb is ܘܬܩܪܝܢ. It is 2nd feminine singular. Greek has the grammatical ambiguity, not the Pe****ta (which is in Syriac). Greek has the same clause in both instances, while in the Pe****ta the actual word forms differ as seen above.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
My god. This is beyond idiotic.

Hint: he's copying from third rate websites.

If first he knew what the evidence was and second, if he could evaluate it, there would be hope for an intelligent conversation.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
It can't rhyme when translating from the Aramaic Pe****ta.


As an Aramaic translator, one would use the words which the Greek scribes were only trying to copy, but whose meanings got lost in the translation.



So why does the Pe****ta then contain such rhyming passages?

You're missing my point: I'm not saying that the Greek should rhyme; I'm saying it can't.

It's not just rhyming that is the issue; there are puns as well.




No.

Excuse me, but 'this guy', Paul Younan, is a native Assyrian who spoke Aramaic since his youth, is an Aramaic scholar, and translator of the Pe****ta in an online project, here:

Pe****ta Aramaic/English Interlinear New Testament

I don't know if he understands Greek, but I'd say watch your left nut as to your bet that he translated from the English.




That might be true if this were the only example, but there are many others, as well as examples from the Tanakh.

Dude, you are in a completely different universe.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hint: he's copying from third rate websites.

If first he knew what the evidence was and second, if he could evaluate it, there would be hope for an intelligent conversation.
I have to resist the urge to start a thread on how to get first rate bogus academic-like material (like a guide to cheating, almost). "Don't just go with your first google, folks! Here's how to find bogus crap that looks good." If Freke & Gandy can be mistaken for scholarship by even intelligent (if uninformed on the subject of early Christianity) people then I don't see why we have to deal with websites on Pe****ta primacy that could be written by a 4th grader.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
It doesn't rhyme.

Not sure if you're using 'rhyme' in a strict technical sense, but here is Paul Younan on this verse:


In verse 32, Maran Eshoa says:

Zamran Lakhun - "We sang to you"
w'La Raqdithun - "And you did not dance"

w'Alyan Lakhun - "And we have mourned for you"
w'La Bakhithun - "And you did not cry"

This type of poetry, in Semitic studies, is known as Line Parallelism, and is the most common form of poetic structure in all Semitic languages.”
– Paul Younan

I see rhyming here.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
I see rhyming here.

No you don't. You are seeing common endings to the words - you can observe that every ending is the same. (I am not going to teach you grammar, maybe LOM would be so kind). It's not a rhyme, though.

Just a hint here: rhyming in poetry didn't really catch on until the Western Renaissance. That at least a thousand years after the texts that you are looking at were written -- if indeed they are as old or even close to as old as the Greek.

Those two points *should* show you just how far off base you are. But who am I to say anything...
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What I called 'rhyming', Younan is calling 'Line Parallelism'. The idea remains the same: deliberately structured phrasing.
Rhyming doesn't mean "deliberately structured phrasing". It means "rhyming". And translations are "deliberately structured" phrases.
 
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