Jesus thought polygamy is OK!

[GoodAttention]

I'm not sure why you find this odd. When I married, my hubby-to-be left his home, traveled to the wedding venue, entered its room, and the doors were shut. It seems perfectly ordinary to me, nothing that needs an explanation.

Yes you are correct.

I made the mistake of reading OPs quotes and not the specific verses from the scripture, this is a rookie mistake. Very bad.

Nevertheless I will eat all my words, I admit I get carried away sometimes and this is one of my best examples.

Apologies to all, especially to @jimb . I was wrong to call you out the way I did and I am sorry.

Time for some silence and reflection, good day to all.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I made the mistake of reading OPs quotes and not the specific verses from the scripture, this is a rookie mistake. Very bad.

It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who sometimes does this

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes you are correct.

I made the mistake of reading OPs quotes and not the specific verses from the scripture, this is a rookie mistake. Very bad.

Nevertheless I will eat all my words, I admit I get carried away sometimes and this is one of my best examples.

Apologies to all, especially to @jimb . I was wrong to call you out the way I did and I am sorry.

Time for some silence and reflection, good day to all.

Hey, at least you can admit you're wrong! That's rare in the world now, and something we need more of!

 

[jimb]

Thats how much I hate that word, but obviously you respect it enough.



Block me already.

To me you will always be a bigot who thinks Jesus came to save people who look like you and only you.

You should not be discussing anything with anyone but reading history books and no computer time until you do.

You are blocked! (In more ways than one!)

 

[CG Didymus]

The thing is, the Old T. Clearly allows polygamy. Many Prophets in the Bible had multiple wives. And Jesus was sent from the same God, that had revealed Laws of Torah.

Jesus never said, you shall not have more than one wife. If He wanted to, He would have said it, in the same way, He said, they cannot divorce their wife.

And how many wives did Baha'u'llah have? It seems like God gave different information to different people in different times and cultures. If we didn't know better, it would almost seem like the people were making up the rules that suited them.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And how many wives did Baha'u'llah have? It seems like God gave different information to different people in different times and cultures. If we didn't know better, it would almost seem like the people were making up the rules that suited them.

My assumption is that these people who wrote religious texts or taught new religious ways did the very best they could to discern what God would want. Inevitably their views would have been shaped by the culture surrounding them. It doesn't mean they are not worth learning from.

 

[Muffled]

Since he has violated the seventh commandment, he has nothing going for him regarding morality, faithfulness, Christianity, etc.

He should be in prison, not the Oval Office!

I believe you must not be from this century. The seventh commandment is no longer law in this country. Not only that but proof is also lacking on that and to boot once a person becomes a Christian it is all forgiven anyway. So it is better to have a man in the White House that can fix the economy and get our international relations back on track.

 

[Muffled]

Since he has violated the seventh commandment, he has nothing going for him regarding morality, faithfulness, Christianity, etc.

He should be in prison, not the Oval Office!

I believe you must not be from this century. The seventh commandment is no longer law in this country. Not only that but proof is also lacking on that and to boot once a person becomes a Christian it is all forgiven anyway. So it is better to have a man in the White House that can fix the economy and get are international relations back on track.

I quote from Wikipedia:

Monogamy was the norm among Christians.[48][49] However, in the context of the sickness of a wife preventing matrimonial intercourse,[50] Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant Reformation, wrote: "I confess that I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict the Scripture. If a man wishes to marry more than one wife he should be asked whether he is satisfied in his conscience that he may do so in accordance with the word of God. In such a case the civil authority has nothing to do in the matter."[51][52]

Polygamy in Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I believe Luther was wrong on that. Gang rape of a man and woman is also in the Bible but never approved and polygamy is never approved by God either. It is tolerated as many sins were but God expects better from us.

 

[Muffled]

My assumption is that these people who wrote religious texts or taught new religious ways did the very best they could to discern what God would want. Inevitably their views would have been shaped by the culture surrounding them. It doesn't mean they are not worth learning from.

I believe there isn't much doubt that the culture around the B man was Islamic.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe you must not be from this century. The seventh commandment is no longer law in this country. Not only that but proof is also lacking on that and to boot once a person becomes a Christian it is all forgiven anyway. So it is better to have a man in the White House that can fix the economy and get our international relations back on track.

Just to give context, I find it horrendous that any religious group that is concerned about sexual morality would even consider voting for Trump.

However, I actually want to respond to one particular thing you said. You said, "Once a person becomes a Christian it is all forgiven anyway." If that's what you believe, I'm not here to convince you otherwise.

But I think that folks here need to understand that while there are a few Christian churches that believe God forgives future sins, most do not. The vast majority of Christians believe that you can walk away from God by committing especially grievous sins. There are also plenty of Calvinist denominations that believe one is of the elect not because of repentance, but because God simply predestines one to eternal life.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I believe there isn't much doubt that the culture around the B man was Islamic.

I agree.

My rule of thumb applies to the religious texts of all groups. Including mine.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

.... Gang rape of a man and woman is also in the Bible but never approved and polygamy is never approved by God either. It is tolerated as many sins were but God expects better from us.

But fornication is prohibited in the Bible. Gang rape is a forceful fornication. It is worse than fornication. So, it is already rebuked in the Bible. But, polygamy is not rebuked.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

But fornication is prohibited in the Bible. Gang rape is a forceful fornication. It is worse than fornication. So, it is already rebuked in the Bible. But, polygamy is not rebuked.

A woman who has been raped has not sinned. The crime of rape is that it is a forceful assault and humiliation that has devastating consequences. Not because it is a form of fornication.

There is only one chapter in the Torah which addresses rape as a crime.

Deuteronomy 22:25-27
"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But you shall do nothing to the girl; the girl has committed no sin deserving of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case; for he found her in the field, and the betrothed girl cried out, but there was no one to save her."

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
"If a man finds a young woman, a virgin who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he may not divorce her all his days."

This second passage is controversial for two reasons.

1. There are those who say that even though it uses similar words, the second passage is not referring to violent rape, but to seduction. The argument for this side is that the penalties are so different. In the first example, the penalty for the man is death. But in this second example, all he has to do is pay her father 50 shekels and has to provide for her without divorce. The counter argument is that the reason for the disparity in penalty is entirely due to whether the victim was married or not. If that's the case, then it would seem that the crime of rape is not a crime against the woman, but against the husband or the father. That sounds pretty ugly to me.

2. It is common for people to incorrectly interpret the passage to mean the woman is forced to marry her rapist. That is not the case. No woman is forced to marry her rapist. However, there were certain societal realities, among them being that a woman who was not a virgin was usually considered unmarriageable, and an unmarried woman was absolutely destitute. This law gives the woman the option of choosing a marriage that, while not what she wants, she might consider to be better than to try to survive alone.

Now let's address your comment about polygamy never have a law against it. There are two ways of seeing this that occur to me.

1. There are many instances in the Bible where deplorable things are mentioned, and never said to be wrong. For example, Sarah decides that her maid is going to have sex with Abraham, and Abraham goes along with it. The woman is a slave required to obey, so her opinion is of no importance; she therefore lacks the capacity to consent. Where is God's condemnation? It just never happens. We learn from this that silence on an issue does NOT imply that something is right.

2. As our culture evolved, a deeper understanding of ethics has evolved.

Among many other things, we understand today that the thoughts, feelings, and well being of women is something that MUST be respected. This was simply not the case back then. There are a long list of instances where women are simply told, have sex even if you don't want to, marry this guy even if you don't want to, etc. The men make the decisions. The woman's response is considered so insignificant that it is not even mentioned.

Polygamy is one of those things that is good for men, and not good for women.

I realize this is a generalization, so there are exceptions. I'm only relaying realities here, not passing judgment on anyone. Men have a much easier time with casual sex, and a great many of them seem wired to prefer having many different women, either at the same time, or serially. Woman have a hard time pulling sex apart from feelings and relationships. This is why we are so notorious for starting a sexual relationship meant to be casual, and then falling in love with the guy.

There is a joke I heard in San Francisco that illustrates these gender differences. When two gay guys get together, the first thing they do is exchange little black books. When two lesbians get together, the first thing they do is hire a moving van.

Returning to polygamy, a man may be highly satisfied by such a relationship, as it meets his instinct to spread his DNA to as many women as possible. But it absolutely destroys the woman's instinct to have an emotionally intimate relationship. To be frank, the more wives a husband has, the less able he is to fulfill the emotional needs of his wives.

 

[Muffled]

Just to give context, I find it horrendous that any religious group that is concerned about sexual morality would even consider voting for Trump.

However, I actually want to respond to one particular thing you said. You said, "Once a person becomes a Christian it is all forgiven anyway." If that's what you believe, I'm not here to convince you otherwise.

But I think that folks here need to understand that while there are a few Christian churches that believe God forgives future sins, most do not. The vast majority of Christians believe that you can walk away from God by committing especially grievous sins. There are also plenty of Calvinist denominations that believe one is of the elect not because of repentance, but because God simply predestines one to eternal life.

I do believe God forgives future sins if the person really has Jesus as Lord.

 

[jimb]

I do believe God forgives future sins if the person really has Jesus as Lord.

Jesus' death was the required sacrificial payment for ALL SIN. It was not partially effective!

 

[Muffled]

But fornication is prohibited in the Bible. Gang rape is a forceful fornication. It is worse than fornication. So, it is already rebuked in the Bible. But, polygamy is not rebuked.

I believe Polygamy is forbidden in the Bible and Jesus also said that from the beginning it was meant to be one marriage only until dath parts the couple. Eternal marriage is Mormon romanticized folk lore.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I do believe God forgives future sins if the person really has Jesus as Lord.

Yeah, you may believe that, but I don't. It sounds outrageously irrational to me to suggest that a sin that hasn't been committed, and thus has not been repented of, can be forgiven. But apparently it doesn't seem that way to you, which is okay.

 

[jimb]

Yeah, you may believe that, but I don't. It sounds outrageously irrational to me to suggest that a sin that hasn't been committed, and thus has not been repented of, can be forgiven. But apparently it doesn't seem that way to you, which is okay.

Jesus sacrifice accomplished one (amazing) thing: it "paid the price" for all sin forever. Those of us who have personally accepted Jesus Christ as our Savior and received the Holy Spirit have all our sins forgiven (past, present, and future). So, what is the "catch"?

The Holy Spirit changes us so that we no longer have any desire to sin. This exactly what the "get out of jail free card" idiots don't understand! The Holy Spirit gives us the power to resist sin and, in some cases, overcome it completely.

Because we are no longer mastered by sinful desires, we can go through life happy and fulfilled. Will we occasionally sin? Of course, because we are not yet perfect. But we have the knowledge that our sins -- all of them -- are forgiven.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Because we are no longer mastered by sinful desires, we can go through life happy and fulfilled. Will we occasionally sin? Of course, because we are not yet perfect. But we have the knowledge that our sins -- all of them -- are forgiven.

The very fact that you openly acknowledge that Christians do sin, completely unravels your entire argument that at the moment you became a Christian you were forgiven of future sins, since you have not yet repented of these future sins.

 

[jimb]

The very fact that you openly acknowledge that Christians do sin, completely unravels your entire argument that at the moment you became a Christian you were forgiven of future sins, since you have not yet repented of these future sins.

That is some twisted logic. If I commit a sin, because I am a new creation in (sinless) Christ, that sin AND ALL MY SINS are forgiven. => I do not have to repent to be forgiven <=

Clearly your thinking is legalistic; you do not understand what being a Christian truly means.