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Jewish Messiah

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Deut. 17:8-13 does not speak of Jewish rabbis, but of Levite priests and judges who were in Israel at the time of Moses.

8 “If a case arises in one of your cities that is too difficult for you to judge, whether it is a case involving bloodshed or a legal claim that has been raised or a violent deed that has been committed or other matters of dispute, you should rise up and go to the place that Jehovah your God chooses. 9 Go to the Levitical priests and to the judge serving in those days, and make your inquiry, and they will hand down the decision to you. 10 Then you must act according to the decision that they hand down to you from the place that Jehovah chooses. Be careful to do according to all that they instruct you. 11 You must act according to the law that they show you and according to the decision that they declare to you. Do not deviate from the decision that they will hand down to you, either to the right or to the left. 12 The man who acts presumptuously by not listening to the priest who is ministering to Jehovah your God or to the judge must die. You must remove what is bad from Israel. 13 All the people will then hear and become afraid, and they will not act presumptuously anymore.

Modern Jews do not have Levite priests ministering Jehovah in his tabernacle or in his temple.
And which judge are they going to ask?

It reminds me of the Catholic saying that the Pope is God's representative on earth and what he says is the word of God.

How dare humans put their understanding above the Word of God?
" It reminds me of the Catholic saying that the Pope is God's representative on earth and what he says is the word of God.
How dare humans put their understanding above the Word of God?
" Quote from post#329 of our friend @Eli G

paarsurrey: #341
One is right and I agree with one, even the "Torah" what we see on Jewish websites these days does not present all the teachings of Moses, some they gave, some they omitted, some their rabbis have wrongly interpreted, right?

Regards
_____________

Did Moses Really Write the Torah?

Jewish tradition says that God dictated the Ten Commandments and also the Torah to Moses atop Mt. Sinai - but actually, the bible says no such thing.
 
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Eli G

Well-Known Member
There is a misconception about Jewish oral traditions and the Talmud having authority equal to the written Torah. But there is no Scriptural evidence that God gave Moses an oral law to accompany the written Torah.

Instead, the Bible states:

Exo. 24:37 Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “You are to write down these words, because in accordance with these words, I am making a covenant with you and with Israel.”

The oral law, later written down and known as the Mishnah and finally expanded into the Talmud, consists of Jewish traditions that began with the Pharisees. These traditions often conflicted with the Torah. For this reason, Jesus told the Pharisees:

Matthew 15:3 (...) “Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 For example,
God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Let the one who speaks abusively of his father or mother be put to death.
5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have that could benefit you is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he need not honor his father at all.
So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
There is a misconception about Jewish oral traditions and the Talmud having authority equal to the written Torah. But there is no Scriptural evidence that God gave Moses an oral law to accompany the written Torah.

Instead, the Bible states:

Exo. 24:37 Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “You are to write down these words, because in accordance with these words, I am making a covenant with you and with Israel.”

The oral law, later written down and known as the Mishnah and finally expanded into the Talmud, consists of Jewish traditions that began with the Pharisees. These traditions often conflicted with the Torah. For this reason, Jesus told the Pharisees:

Matthew 15:3 (...) “Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 For example,
God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Let the one who speaks abusively of his father or mother be put to death.
5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have that could benefit you is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he need not honor his father at all.
So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
Wrong on many fronts. In fact, Jesus endorsed the teachings of the Pharisees. And if you want to talk about contradicting the Torah laws, just read the 6 antitheses.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There is a misconception about Jewish oral traditions and the Talmud having authority equal to the written Torah. But there is no Scriptural evidence that God gave Moses an oral law to accompany the written Torah.
You are neglecting the fact that Deut 17:8-13, which establishes the God given authority of the Levites and Rabbis (Judges) to interpret the law.
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST ONE OF TWO

paarsurrey said:
" Instead of prophetic revelation as a source of religion, the Rabbis and leaders of Rabbinic Judaism” created “a set of specific rules and operate within specific parameters” which they created from their personal interpretations and opinions. "

A wonderful point of our friend @Clear , can one please elaborate?:

Why did the Judaism people resort to adopting to the inferior " Rabbinic Judaism" and or condescending to it by leaving the truthful "Prophetic Religion" based on Word of Revelation, please (post #326)




Hi @paarsurrey

I just returned from traveling so I did not see your post until this morning. The historical data in Posts #323 and #324 only partly answered this historical question.

The question as to why the Jews abandoned ancient Prophetic religion (which was characterized by religious principles provided by prophets) and created "Rabbinic" Judaism (which is characterized by religious principles provided by rabbis - which are merely teachers without authority and without prophetic revelation) is a profound historical question.

I think the Jewish abandonment of Prophetic Judaism and the creation of the religion that is now known as “Rabbinic Judaism” is complicated and there are certainly historical scholars of religion that know much more about the various motives for the Jews having abandoned Prophetic religion, refusing the Messiah Jesus and the creation of Rabbinic Religion.

The historical texts tell us that it was not merely that the Jewish leaders abandoned Prophetic religion and created another out of it’s debris, but the early historical texts make clear that God TOOK away the prophets and prophetic guidance from the Jews partly because they did not accept the message of the prophets and persecuted the prophets he sent to them. They refused additional light and knowledge God was trying to send them. This condemnation and taking away of the prophets from the Jews was because light has come into the world, but the people loved darkness more than the light (c.f. John 3:19)



1) JEWISH APOSTASY FROM PROPHETIC RELIGION

The tendency for Jews to innovate and change prophetic religion


For example, Moses understood this tendency for constant innovation and apostasy when he said “...for what I command them will not be to their liking, .... I declare to you that they will abandon me and choose to follow the idols of the gentiles and their abominations and their filthy deeds, and they will worship the false gods, which will become a trap and snare, and they will violate every sacred assembly and covenant Sabbath the very ones I am commanding them today to observe. (THE WORDS OF MOSES 1Q22 Col. 1:6-9)

This tendency was apparent in Israel from the earliest days as the Damascus Document (4Q) describes : “...the boundary-shifters appeared and led Israel astray and the land was devastated, for they had spoken rebellion against the commandments of God through Moses and also through the anointed of the spirit; and they prophesied falsehood to turn Israel from following God)

“all the boundary shifters and all of it will be done in the age of evil...and they did not obey the voice of Moses ...they went about spreading lies about His laws and from God’s covenant they strayed... “ (THE DAMASCUS DOCUMENT – Geniza A+B 4Q266)

In the time of destruction of the land the boundary-shifters appeared and led Israel astray…for they had spoken rebellion against the commandments of God…“ (The Damascus Document 4Q)


Indeed the manner of corruption of early authentic religion was NOT simply through refusal of the Jews to accept authentic religion, but rather it was a contamination of authentic prophetic religion by counterfeit innovations; a warping of religion, not by the irreligious, but by the religious themselves. The boundaries of authentic religion have always tended to “shift”.

For example, When Levi prophesies to his son’s that Israel will someday lose the rights associated with authentic religion, he reaffirms that it was partly because of contamination of authentic religion with counterfeit commandments and having pride in their claim to authority.

Levi tells his descendants :
You will bring down a curse on our nation, because you want to destroy the light of the Law which was granted to you for the enlightenment of every man, teaching commandments which are opposed to God’s just ordinances. .... You will be inflated with pride over your priesthood, exalting yourselves not merely by human standards but contrary to the commands of God”. (Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi 14:1-8)

It is clear that it was not merely commandments and doctrines that were corrupted, but the authentic ordinances were corrupted as well.

And I shall send to them witnesses so that I might witness to them, but they will not hear. And they will even kill the witnesses. And they will persecute those who search out the Law, and they will neglect everything and begin to do evil in my sight. And I shall hide my face from them, and I shall give them over to the power of the nations to be captive, and for plunder, and to be devoured. And I shall remove them from the midst of the land, and I shall scatter them among the nations. And they will forget all of my laws and all of my commandments and all of my judgments, and they will err concerning new moons, Sabbaths, festivals, jubilees, and ordinances.” Jubilees (the book of division) 1:12-14;

New testament Barnabas reminds the Christians of this same warning and it’s fulfillment among the Jews : Now concerning the water, it is written with reference to Israel that they would never accept the baptism that brings forgiveness of sins, but would create a substitute for themselves.” (Barnabas 11:1)

Thus the book of Jubilees reminds us : And this testimony will be heard as a testimony against them, for they will forget all of my commandments, everything which I shall command them, and they will walk after the gentiles and after their defilement and shame. And they will serve their gods, …. because they have forsaken my ordinances and my commandments and the feasts of my covenant and my Sabbaths and my sacred place, which I sanctified for myself among them.“ (Jubilees (the book of division) 1:9-10)



THE FAILURE TO RETAIN AUTHENTIC PROPHETIC RELIGION WAS A RESULT OF JEWISH APOSTASY

28 “Hear these words, O Israel. … you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. 32 And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given.“ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;

The Prophet Ezra is not merely referring to the land of Israel, but to the very loss of the Prophetic gift of Revelation which kept authentic religion on course. Prophetic revelation was so central to authentic religion that Justin martyr, reminds the Jew Trypho that prophetic religion was the key witnesses to the authenticity of the early Christian religion and it’s loss among the Jews and the appearance of Revelation and prophets among the Christians was a sign of Gods transfer of favor to the Christians.

Justin tells the Jew Trypo : One may see among us [Christians] men and women who have received the gift of the Spirit of God...there were no longer to be prophets in your [Jewish] race as in the past...For after him [Jesus] absolutely no prophet has come among you... We have still among us, even until now, prophetic gifts, which should make you understand that which your race formerly possessed has been transferred to us. “ (Dialogue with Trypho, lxxxiii)

However, once the Christians received the gift of authentic prophetic religion, though they disdained the Jews for apostasy from the earliest religion, the Christians seemed no better at retaining authentic religion than the Jews were. The warnings given to the Jews anciently are no different in essentials than the warnings repeated to the Christians should Christianity turns too far from the path or should they not accept corrections back to correct principles.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
 
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Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
POST TWO OF TWO


2) REGARDING THE TENDENCY TO APOSTATIZE FROM ORIGINAL RELIGION

I once saw an Opening post ask regarding the Jew’s motives in “turn[ing] away” from the gospel. I felt that this discussion had far reaching implications since the same mechanisms that caused the Jews to “turn away” from truth may then apply to ALL individuals who “turn away” from principles God reveals for mankind to follow. Another Christian poster immediately offered the insightful question : “Do you really think we [Christians] do any better?”

Honest discussions regarding this principle IS an appropriate and profound subject if Christianities are to ever gain insight into why Christians also “turn away” from truth, since, only a small portion of the many conflicting Christian theories on a specific doctrine CAN be correct and the rest must represent error.

Yet Christianities also continue to innovate and develop new and different theological theories and move away (or “turn away”) from the more ancient christian traditions. It is as though Christianity has not avoided making the same mistakes as the Jews (in terms of abandoning and innovating away from early, original, revealed religion.) Instead of a Christianity led by prophets, they have also evolved into a Christianity led by pastors and priests.

Christians rarely flirt with this admission (which is so obvious to other religions as they correctly criticize Christians for having so many conflicting theories), yet occasionally we’ll have the tacit admission that Christians are “not above guessing at those traditions, adding to them, misunderstanding them, or even altering them.” (As one poster described our shared tendency to apostatize.)

Such words remind me of Pseudo-Hecateus when he says We throngs of men go astray in our hearts when, to gain solace from misery, we set up as statues of gods figures worked from wood, or images of copper, gold or ivory. We imagine we are religious when we enjoin in their honor sacrifices and evil festivals. (#2 Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 5.113)

This principle that man innovates and then adopts changed religion has ALWAYS been true whether speaking of Jews or Christians. Prophets reveal authentic religion. Men then go astray. Other prophets attempt to restore authentic religion to mankind, which correction men then apostatize from, which other prophets attempt to restore, ad nauseum.

Perhaps this is one of the great lessons that God seems to be trying to teach mankind from the beginning and Christians seem to be no more immune to this weakness than were the Jews. ALL mankind tend to apostatize to some extent. We innovate, we imagine, we theorize. And as we do, we get certain things wrong. A survey of the early Judao-Christian texts reveals this pattern as clearly as the later sacred texts do.

As you can see from the characteristics even in this thread and it's debates, there is a tendency to simply hold on to a specific tradition regardless of the significant historical data demonstrating the errors of simply repeating talking points and refusing enlightenment. It's been said that we can forgive a child who is scared of the dark, but the tragedy is when men are scared of the light.


THE LOSS OF MANY EARLY DOCTRINES

It is not merely the innovation of man-made doctrines which contaminates religions, but also the prohibition of study and knowledge in certain areas of inquiry that characterized religious changes. For example, The rabbis prohibited certain questions and studies which prevented the Rabbinic Jews from having some of the same knowledge as earlier Prophetic Judaism had. Later Christianity also lost much of what was valuable in it's teachings.

The centuries following the death of Christ were described by a logia of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas as follows : Jesus said, “The kingdom of the [father] is like a certain woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking [on the] road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her [on] the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty.

This logia is one of many sad descriptions of the failed attempt to pass on the doctrines and traditions of the early Jews and Christians to later generations. Thus, when one looks inside of modern Rabbinic Judaism and Christian Churches and many of the various iterations and various religious theories, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave early Prophetic religion it’s value, is no longer to be found in many of these later religions.

In any case @paarsurrey, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and insightful as you consider these profound questions you raise.

Clear
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Jews lost their way more than 2000 years ago.

Four centuries before Jesus they already were left without prophets ... so modern Jews are not even the shadow of the real thing. Remember: not prophet, no priests, no davidic king, no fulfilment of Moses' Law, no temple, no genealogies, , and a long etc. They don't even know what some old hebrew words in the Hebrew Scriptures mean with total certainty.

So, no. Leave your fairy tells for your children.

Have a good day.
Is it for this that they were cursed by David and then by Jesus, please, right?

Regards
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
@Eli G pointed out that modern Rabbinic Judaism is NOT the same religion as the prophets but is a religion created from the debris of the earlier prophetic religion.

@Eli G pointed out : Four centuries before Jesus they already were left without prophets ... so modern Jews are not even the shadow of the real thing. Remember: not prophet, no priests, no davidic king, no fulfilment of Moses' Law, no temple, no genealogies, , and a long etc. They don't even know what some old hebrew words in the Hebrew Scriptures mean with total certainty.

@paarsurrey asked : Is it for this that they were cursed by David and then by Jesus, please, right?" (post #348)

Hi @paarsurrey

I don't know what specific references you are referring to, but I think the reason that the Rabbinic Judaism was not given prophetic guidance and gifts that the prior prophetic religion of Israel has was that Israel kept apostatizing away from prophetic religion.

For examples :
Judges 5:8 says : They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?"

Judges 3:5-6 describes that "The Israelites lived among the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. They took their daughters in marriage and gave their own daughters to their sons, and served their gods."

Joshua 24:14-15 also describes Israel as having worshipped other Gods in Joshuas' famous "Choose ye this day" speech. The text says : “Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Judges 5:7-8
tells us that Israel rejected the Laws of God and their religion worshipped other Gods. This is what the LORD says: “For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not relent. Because they have rejected the law of the LORD and have not kept his decrees, because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed,

Amos 2:4; 7 describes Israel thusly : "Life in the villages ceased; it ended in Israel, until I, Deborah, arose, a mother in Israel. 8When they chose new gods, then war came to their gates. "

It is these sorts of tendencies of Israels spiritual leaders to create or adopt apostate religious principles (including changing the sacred texts) and then having them adopted by their people is what I meant when I said that "To the degree that the rabbis created a theology which no longer reflected the ancient God, they created a textual idol and surrounding theological assumptions in the place of the early Jewish God.". (post #324)

In any case, Christianity, (the Judaism that accepted the messiah) should take a historical lesson from the mistakes of Rabbinic Judaism (the Judaism that rejected the Messiah). It is an incredibly important historical lesson for mankind.

Clear
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
@Eli G pointed out that modern Rabbinic Judaism is NOT the same religion as the prophets but is a religion created from the debris of the earlier prophetic religion.

@Eli G pointed out : Four centuries before Jesus they already were left without prophets ... so modern Jews are not even the shadow of the real thing. Remember: not prophet, no priests, no davidic king, no fulfilment of Moses' Law, no temple, no genealogies, , and a long etc. They don't even know what some old hebrew words in the Hebrew Scriptures mean with total certainty.

@paarsurrey asked : Is it for this that they were cursed by David and then by Jesus, please, right?" (post #348)

Hi @paarsurrey

I don't know what specific references you are referring to, but I think the reason that the Rabbinic Judaism was not given prophetic guidance and gifts that the prior prophetic religion of Israel has was that Israel kept apostatizing away from prophetic religion.

For examples :
Judges 5:8 says : They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?"

Judges 3:5-6 describes that "The Israelites lived among the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. They took their daughters in marriage and gave their own daughters to their sons, and served their gods."

Joshua 24:14-15 also describes Israel as having worshipped other Gods in Joshuas' famous "Choose ye this day" speech. The text says : “Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Judges 5:7-8
tells us that Israel rejected the Laws of God and their religion worshipped other Gods. This is what the LORD says: “For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not relent. Because they have rejected the law of the LORD and have not kept his decrees, because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed,

Amos 2:4; 7 describes Israel thusly : "Life in the villages ceased; it ended in Israel, until I, Deborah, arose, a mother in Israel. 8When they chose new gods, then war came to their gates. "

It is these sorts of tendencies of Israels spiritual leaders to create or adopt apostate religious principles (including changing the sacred texts) and then having them adopted by their people is what I meant when I said that "To the degree that the rabbis created a theology which no longer reflected the ancient God, they created a textual idol and surrounding theological assumptions in the place of the early Jewish God.". (post #324)

In any case, Christianity, (the Judaism that accepted the messiah) should take a historical lesson from the mistakes of Rabbinic Judaism (the Judaism that rejected the Messiah). It is an incredibly important historical lesson for mankind.

Clear
" @paarsurrey asked : Is it for this that they were cursed by David and then by Jesus, please, right?" (post #348)"

"Matthew 23: 35
34Therefore behold I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them you will put to death and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the just blood that hath been shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel the just, even unto the blood of Zacharias the son of Barachias, whom you killed between the temple and the altar. 36Amen I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation."

" Did Jews kill their prophets?
Yep!
Though you have to differentiate between Judaens (only those of the tribes of Bejamin and Judah are Jews) and the 10 tribes of Israel which YHWH had wiped off the map by the Assyrians in the 8th century BCE.
Both kingdoms only murdered their prophets when they chastised them for their transgressions against God.
Isaiah is said to have been sawn in two by Manasseh, son of Hezekiah and the fourteenth king of the Kingdom of Judah.
Jehoram, the 9th king of the Israel, had the prophet Micah murdered.
Both the Northern and Southern Kingdoms’ leaders had a tendency to have murdered anyone that told them something that they didn’t want to hear! "
So, Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah rightly cursed/charge-sheeted the Jews, right?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Rival said:
Err, have you read the psalms? David constantly talks about his feelings, how he's sobbing at night, how he's afraid, how he's anxious.

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my help are the words of my groaning.
My God, I cry out by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
Yet You are holy,
You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You rescued them.
To You they cried out and they fled to safety;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

You're assuming that Psalm 22 is about David. David's sin is addressed in Psalm 51, this is something different.

But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psalms 22:6
" Psalms 22 "

Isn't David also within this Psalm cursing his enemies of the tribe Manasseh from Jewish people (of Bashan), please, right?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
POST ONE OF TWO


REGARDING THE EARLY JEWISH TRADITION THAT ADAM WAS BORN WITH BOTH SETS OF SEX ORGANS :

From THE JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA (in purple)


Rabbinical literature knows both the mythical and the real hermaphrodite: the former in the Haggadah, the latter in the Halakah. The notion of bisexuality must have been derived from Hellenic sources, as the Greek form of the word proves. The other form, "hermaphrodite," never occurs in rabbinical writings. The principle of the sexual generation of the world is not of Greek origin: its phallic character pointing to India as its birthplace…..

In the Haggadah.


Transmitted and developed through dualistic Gnosticism in the East, the notion of an androgynous creation was adopted by the Haggadists in order to reconcile the apparently conflicting statements of the Bible. In Gen. ii. 7 and 18 et seq., the separate creations of man and of woman are described, while in chap. i. 27, "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them," their creation is described as coincident. In connection with the latter verse the Midrash states (Gen. R. viii.): "Jeremiah, son of Eleazar, says: God created Adam androgynous, but Samuel, son of Naḥman, says, He created him 'double-faced,' then cutting him in twain and forming two backs, one to the one and the other to the second" (see Bacher, "Ag. Pal. Amor." i. 547, iii. 585). The same statement is given in Moses ha-Darshan's Bere**** Rabbati ("Pugio Fidei," p. 446, Paris, 1651).

I might point out that medically, a hermaphrodite is a single individual who has both sexual characteristics (e.g. they may have both sets of organs, male and female), whereas the “double-faced” Jewish version seems to have two individuals of different sexes, melded into in one body, but facing different directions (like the mythical Janus, whose face looks both forward and backward).

Thus, the Jewish encyclopedia explains that : according to Jeremiah's opinion, Adam had both sexes, and was thus a real hermaphrodite in the old mythical sense….

This represents ADAM as a hermaphrodite since, as Rabbi Hirsch points out, “Eve was created later”, after Adam and not at the same time.

The midrash in Stones Chumash (a printed Torah. Not a scroll) elaborates regarding the creation of Eve as a “companion” to Adam. God knew that Adam needed a companion. Her purpose was not for reproduction, for Adam had been created with that function.”

The Jewish encyclopedia further explains thatIn all the parallel passages in the Talmud, the opinion of Samuel b. Naḥman alone prevails, for we find regularly Adam (bifrons, double-fronted), as, for example: 'Er. 18a, Ber. 61a, etc. (Jastrow, "Dict." s.v., p. 304, 1). The opinion expressed by Jeremiah is, however, very old and wide-spread, for we find the fathers of the Christian Church at pains to refute this "Jewish fable"; Augustine writes against it in his commentary on Genesis, ad loc. ch. 22. Strabos,agreeing with Augustine, declares this opinion to be one of the "damnatæ Judæorum fabulæ." Others revive the question, and Sixtus Senensis in his "Bibliotheca Sacra" devotes to it a special chapter (ed. Colon. 1586, fol. 344, 345). An alchemic interpretation has been given to "Adam androgynus," by Guil. Menens, "Aurei Velleris libri tres, Theatrum chemicum," vol. v., p. 275, Argent., 1660.

In the Halakah.


In the halakic writings only "Androgynos" is used, never "duoprosopin" (bifrons), and always in the physiological sense of "bisexual." In the Mishnah Bikkurim, the whole of section iv. is devoted to the minute description of the legal position and abnormities of the Androgynos. In some particulars he is to be treated as a man, in others as a woman, as he partakes of both natures; not so the "ṭum-ṭum," an individual whose sex can not be determined. This Androgynos is a common figure in classical tradition. Pliny mentions him ("Historia Naturalis," vii. 34), and Gellius ("Noctes Atticæ," ix. 4, 16). Special attention was paid to the Androgynos in the old writers on physiognomy. Compare "Scriptores Physiognomonici Græci et Latini," ed. Foerster, Leipsic, 1893, under "Androgynos," in Index Græcus (ii. 368). For the further legal treatment of the Androgynos in Hebrew law, see Isaac Lampronti in his "Paḥad Yiẓḥaḳ," s.v., and Löw, "Lebensalter."


Obviously the early and widespread Jewish tradition that an "andro / gynus" (male / female) adam had organs of both sexes was a very widespread and deeply footed tradition in orthodox Judaism. However, it does not exist in any detail in the tanakh (Hebrew bible) but is simply exegetal speculation and irrationality run wild.

This sort of irrational and illogical speculation that creates a bisexual/two-bodied adam with a tail (the tail is in other Jewish literature) is similar to the same sort of irrational and illogic that creates similar strange metaphors out of simple words and seeks to contaminate the early judeo-christian traditions with Jewish mythology. The forced marriage of the two theologies historically will not work in this way and Jews should NOT try to create this artificial relationship between two, differing theologies simply because one or two words are shared between them.

For example, When Christians use the words "Adam was created in the image of God", early Christians did NOT adopt a widespread tradition that Adam had both sex organs and that Adam could, by use of both sets of sex organs together, create children without eve. This may be Jewish, but it is not represented in any widespread fashion in sacred early Christian texts and, as the Jewish encyclopedia admits, "we find the fathers of the Christian Church at pains to refute this "Jewish fable"

I have wondered if this insistent Jewish tendency not to take God at his obvious word, but, rather to change his word by mythologizing and spiritualizing and metaphorizing Gods word so as to not even recognize the basic and simple meanings of words, was part of what angered God against the Jews and contributed to God taking away the prophetic Gifts from the Jews transfering prophecy and revelation to the early Christian movement.

How did such a tradition originate and become so detailed and ingrained in Jewish tradition in the context of Tanahk (i.e. the hebrew bible / Old Testament). Deut 12:32 tells the Jews regarding the Torah, "....do not add to it or take away from it.".

Perhaps this Jewish insistence on metaphorizing and re-defining and contributed to the reasons God took away their temple and its associated worship out of the midst of the Jews and left them with synagogues instead, or why he took away their active priesthood associated with the temple worship and left them with teachers (rabbis) instead.

There are certain things which God said fairly clearly and which the early Christians took much more at face value than the Jews, they did not add nor subtract to the text nearly so much as the Jews did with the creation of their many traditions and rules (which were never part of the Old Testament / Tanakh in the first place).

How does one create such detailed and deep-seated traditions like this without adding speculations and illogical conclusions and irrational considerations to the text? It's obvious, the Jews had to add to Tanakh to create such traditions.


1) GODS ANGER AGAINST THE JEWS AND THEIR PUNISHMENT IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT “MEANINGS” AND TRADITIONS

As I explained in my last post, there was an underlying cause to God’s anger against the Jews which resulted in his taking away their prophets and prophetic gifts, leaving them only with texts and teachers, something which caused him to remove his temple from their midst, which left them with synagogues instead, and something which motivated him, in his anger, to remove the priesthood from their midst and leave them with rabbis (teachers without priesthood) instead.

Part of the source of Gods anger against the Jews was not just how they persecuted prophets he sent to them, but how they treated the words he sent to them.
It is an early, tentative model that seems to arise when I look at how they developed their theology as a rabbi-derived model.

For example, Deut 12:32 warns the Jews regarding Gods words given them, "....do not add to it or take away from it.".

The problem created by Jewish theology and tradition created by Rabbis and then delivered to a Jewish population is that though this system did not alter the written word a great deal, the Jewish traditions created by this rabbinical system systematically added to and took away from the meanings of God’s word.

Through attempts at logic and reasoning, add to and elaborate upon very simple and fairly straight forward texts delivered from God, rather than as a tanakh-derived model. I think the Jewish traditions surrounding the creation of Man (Adam) is a good model regarding how a basic truth can be elaborated, twisted, changed to the point where the finished theology of the people is quite different than what God actually gave them. To be fair, this is similar to the problems created for Christians when they began to create theology through theologians (which theology was then delivered to and adopted by Christian populations in the later Christian movement).

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS
" Part of the source of Gods anger against the Jews was not just how they persecuted prophets he sent to them, but how they treated the words he sent to them. "

Nevertheless, very important, as they were representatives/ambassadors of G-d, and denying any one messenger/prophet of G-d is denying all of them, please, right?
It is for this that Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah messenger/prophet of G-d cursed/condemned/charge-sheeted the Jewish people in very strong words, please, right?
Before Yeshua even Moses cursed them as did others, one must say, right?

Regards
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
" Part of the source of Gods anger against the Jews was not just how they persecuted prophets he sent to them, but how they treated the words he sent to them. "

Nevertheless, very important, as they were representatives/ambassadors of G-d, and denying any one messenger/prophet of G-d is denying all of them, please, right?
It is for this that Yeshua- the truthful Israelite Messiah messenger/prophet of G-d cursed/condemned/charge-sheeted the Jewish people in very strong words, please, right?
Before Yeshua even Moses cursed them as did others, one must say, right?

Regards
I know that Jezebel murdered many prophets. And apparently Zechariah (I think) was murdered. Besides these, what prophets were killed by Isarel in the Tanakh?
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Isn't David also within this Psalm cursing his enemies of the tribe Manasseh from Jewish people (of Bashan), please, right?
It's a bit of a stretch to think that the cry of dereliction and pierced hands and feet have anything to do with what was going on during the time that David was king.

The reference to Bashan connects to the lion.

Many bulls have compassed me: strong [bulls] of Bashan have beset me round.
They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psalms 22:12-13

(To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.) My El, my El, why hast thou forsaken me? [why art thou so] far from helping me, [and from] the words of my roaring?
Psalms 22:1

The lion relates to the resurrection on the third day, but it doesn't work for Christian theology since it is Ephraim and Judah that are being torn.

For I [will be] unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, [even] I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue [him].
I will go [and] return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Come, and let us return unto YHWH: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 5:14-6:2
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
There is a misconception about Jewish oral traditions and the Talmud having authority equal to the written Torah. But there is no Scriptural evidence that God gave Moses an oral law to accompany the written Torah.

Instead, the Bible states:

Exo. 24:37 Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “You are to write down these words, because in accordance with these words, I am making a covenant with you and with Israel.”

The oral law, later written down and known as the Mishnah and finally expanded into the Talmud, consists of Jewish traditions that began with the Pharisees. These traditions often conflicted with the Torah. For this reason, Jesus told the Pharisees:

Matthew 15:3 (...) “Why do you overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition?
4 For example,
God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Let the one who speaks abusively of his father or mother be put to death.
5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: “Whatever I have that could benefit you is a gift dedicated to God,” 6 he need not honor his father at all.
So you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you when he said: 8 ‘This people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshipping me, for they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”
" Isaiah "

Is prophet Isaiah in chapter 3 of Book of Isaiah appreciating the Jews of his time or condemning their misdeeds, please?:

Yeshayahu (Isaiah) - Chapter 3​


1For, behold, the Master, the Lord of Hosts removes from Jerusalem and from Judah a support and a stay, every support of bread and every support of water;
2Hero and warrior; judge and prophet and soothsayer and elder;
3Captain of fifty and man of esteem, and counsellor and skillful craftsman, and one who understands secrets.
4And I will appoint youths as their princes, and scorners shall rule over them.
5And the people shall be oppressed, man against man, and man against his fellow; they shall behave haughtily, the youth against the elder and the base against the honorable.
6When a man shall seize his brother of the house of his father, [saying], "You have a garment, be an officer to us, and this obstacle shall be under your hand,"
7He shall swear on that day, saying, "I will not be a ruler, while in my house there is neither bread nor clothing; do not make me an officer over the people."
8For Jerusalem has stumbled, and Judah has fallen, for their tongue and their deeds are against the Lord, to provoke the eyes of His glory.
9The recognition of their faces testified against them, and their sin, like Sodom they told, they did not deny; woe is to their soul, for they have paid themselves [with] evil.
10Praise the righteous man for he is good, for the fruit of their deeds they shall eat.
11Woe to the wicked [who does] evil, for the recompense of his hands shall be done to him.
12As for My people, their rulers are mockers, and women govern them; O My people! Your leaders lead you astray, and the way of your paths they have destroyed.
13The Lord stands to plead, and He stands to judge the peoples.
14The Lord will enter into judgment with the elders of His people and their officers. And you have ravaged the vineyard; the spoils of the poor are in your houses.
15What do you mean that you crush My people and the faces of the poor you grind? says the Lord God of Hosts.
16And the Lord said: Because the daughters of Zion are so haughty; and they walk with neck stretched forth, and winking eyes; walking and raising themselves they walk; and with their feet they spout "venom."
17And the Lord shall smite with zaraath the crown of the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord shall pour out their "vessels."
18On that day, the Lord shall remove the glory of the shoes and the embroidered headdresses and the hairnets.
19The necklaces and the bracelets and the veils,
20The tiaras and the foot chains and the hair ribbons and the clasps and the earrings.
21The finger-rings and the nose-rings.
22The tunics and the bedspreads and the tablecloths and the purses.
23The mirrors and the sheets and the turbans and the clasps.
24And it shall come to pass, that, in the place of perfume, will be decay, and in the place of a girdle, laceration, and in the place of the deed, a wound that causes baldness, and in the place of the organ of levity, a sack-cloth girdle, for this is instead of beauty.
25Your men shall fall by the sword and your heroism in war.
26And her gates shall lament and mourn, and she shall be emptied out; she shall sit on the ground.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15934/jewish/Chapter-3.htm

Right?

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
POST TWO OF TWO


2) REGARDING THE TENDENCY TO APOSTATIZE FROM ORIGINAL RELIGION

I once saw an Opening post ask regarding the Jew’s motives in “turn[ing] away” from the gospel. I felt that this discussion had far reaching implications since the same mechanisms that caused the Jews to “turn away” from truth may then apply to ALL individuals who “turn away” from principles God reveals for mankind to follow. Another Christian poster immediately offered the insightful question : “Do you really think we [Christians] do any better?”

Honest discussions regarding this principle IS an appropriate and profound subject if Christianities are to ever gain insight into why Christians also “turn away” from truth, since, only a small portion of the many conflicting Christian theories on a specific doctrine CAN be correct and the rest must represent error.

Yet Christianities also continue to innovate and develop new and different theological theories and move away (or “turn away”) from the more ancient christian traditions. It is as though Christianity has not avoided making the same mistakes as the Jews (in terms of abandoning and innovating away from early, original, revealed religion.) Instead of a Christianity led by prophets, they have also evolved into a Christianity led by pastors and priests.

Christians rarely flirt with this admission (which is so obvious to other religions as they correctly criticize Christians for having so many conflicting theories), yet occasionally we’ll have the tacit admission that Christians are “not above guessing at those traditions, adding to them, misunderstanding them, or even altering them.” (As one poster described our shared tendency to apostatize.)

Such words remind me of Pseudo-Hecateus when he says We throngs of men go astray in our hearts when, to gain solace from misery, we set up as statues of gods figures worked from wood, or images of copper, gold or ivory. We imagine we are religious when we enjoin in their honor sacrifices and evil festivals. (#2 Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 5.113)

This principle that man innovates and then adopts changed religion has ALWAYS been true whether speaking of Jews or Christians. Prophets reveal authentic religion. Men then go astray. Other prophets attempt to restore authentic religion to mankind, which correction men then apostatize from, which other prophets attempt to restore, ad nauseum.

Perhaps this is one of the great lessons that God seems to be trying to teach mankind from the beginning and Christians seem to be no more immune to this weakness than were the Jews. ALL mankind tend to apostatize to some extent. We innovate, we imagine, we theorize. And as we do, we get certain things wrong. A survey of the early Judao-Christian texts reveals this pattern as clearly as the later sacred texts do.

As you can see from the characteristics even in this thread and it's debates, there is a tendency to simply hold on to a specific tradition regardless of the significant historical data demonstrating the errors of simply repeating talking points and refusing enlightenment. It's been said that we can forgive a child who is scared of the dark, but the tragedy is when men are scared of the light.


THE LOSS OF MANY EARLY DOCTRINES

It is not merely the innovation of man-made doctrines which contaminates religions, but also the prohibition of study and knowledge in certain areas of inquiry that characterized religious changes. For example, The rabbis prohibited certain questions and studies which prevented the Rabbinic Jews from having some of the same knowledge as earlier Prophetic Judaism had. Later Christianity also lost much of what was valuable in it's teachings.

The centuries following the death of Christ were described by a logia of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas as follows : Jesus said, “The kingdom of the [father] is like a certain woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking [on the] road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her [on] the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty.

This logia is one of many sad descriptions of the failed attempt to pass on the doctrines and traditions of the early Jews and Christians to later generations. Thus, when one looks inside of modern Rabbinic Judaism and Christian Churches and many of the various iterations and various religious theories, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave early Prophetic religion it’s value, is no longer to be found in many of these later religions.

In any case @paarsurrey, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and insightful as you consider these profound questions you raise.

Clear

POST TWO OF TWO


2) REGARDING THE TENDENCY TO APOSTATIZE FROM ORIGINAL RELIGION

I once saw an Opening post ask regarding the Jew’s motives in “turn[ing] away” from the gospel. I felt that this discussion had far reaching implications since the same mechanisms that caused the Jews to “turn away” from truth may then apply to ALL individuals who “turn away” from principles God reveals for mankind to follow. Another Christian poster immediately offered the insightful question : “Do you really think we [Christians] do any better?”

Honest discussions regarding this principle IS an appropriate and profound subject if Christianities are to ever gain insight into why Christians also “turn away” from truth, since, only a small portion of the many conflicting Christian theories on a specific doctrine CAN be correct and the rest must represent error.

Yet Christianities also continue to innovate and develop new and different theological theories and move away (or “turn away”) from the more ancient christian traditions. It is as though Christianity has not avoided making the same mistakes as the Jews (in terms of abandoning and innovating away from early, original, revealed religion.) Instead of a Christianity led by prophets, they have also evolved into a Christianity led by pastors and priests.

Christians rarely flirt with this admission (which is so obvious to other religions as they correctly criticize Christians for having so many conflicting theories), yet occasionally we’ll have the tacit admission that Christians are “not above guessing at those traditions, adding to them, misunderstanding them, or even altering them.” (As one poster described our shared tendency to apostatize.)

Such words remind me of Pseudo-Hecateus when he says We throngs of men go astray in our hearts when, to gain solace from misery, we set up as statues of gods figures worked from wood, or images of copper, gold or ivory. We imagine we are religious when we enjoin in their honor sacrifices and evil festivals. (#2 Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 5.113)

This principle that man innovates and then adopts changed religion has ALWAYS been true whether speaking of Jews or Christians. Prophets reveal authentic religion. Men then go astray. Other prophets attempt to restore authentic religion to mankind, which correction men then apostatize from, which other prophets attempt to restore, ad nauseum.

Perhaps this is one of the great lessons that God seems to be trying to teach mankind from the beginning and Christians seem to be no more immune to this weakness than were the Jews. ALL mankind tend to apostatize to some extent. We innovate, we imagine, we theorize. And as we do, we get certain things wrong. A survey of the early Judao-Christian texts reveals this pattern as clearly as the later sacred texts do.

As you can see from the characteristics even in this thread and it's debates, there is a tendency to simply hold on to a specific tradition regardless of the significant historical data demonstrating the errors of simply repeating talking points and refusing enlightenment. It's been said that we can forgive a child who is scared of the dark, but the tragedy is when men are scared of the light.


THE LOSS OF MANY EARLY DOCTRINES

It is not merely the innovation of man-made doctrines which contaminates religions, but also the prohibition of study and knowledge in certain areas of inquiry that characterized religious changes. For example, The rabbis prohibited certain questions and studies which prevented the Rabbinic Jews from having some of the same knowledge as earlier Prophetic Judaism had. Later Christianity also lost much of what was valuable in it's teachings.

The centuries following the death of Christ were described by a logia of Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas as follows : Jesus said, “The kingdom of the [father] is like a certain woman who was carrying a [jar] full of meal. While she was walking [on the] road, still some distance from home, the handle of the jar broke and the meal emptied out behind her [on] the road. She did not realize it; she had noticed no accident. When she reached her house, she set the jar down and found it empty.

This logia is one of many sad descriptions of the failed attempt to pass on the doctrines and traditions of the early Jews and Christians to later generations. Thus, when one looks inside of modern Rabbinic Judaism and Christian Churches and many of the various iterations and various religious theories, one finds that much of the doctrinal substance that gave early Prophetic religion it’s value, is no longer to be found in many of these later religions.

In any case @paarsurrey, I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and insightful as you consider these profound questions you raise.

Clear
" Gospel of Thomas "

I have read "Gospel of Thomas" and there is also "The Acts of Thomas":
Right?

Regards
 

Clear

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Hi @paarsurrey

Paarsurrey said : " " Gospel of Thomas " I have read "Gospel of Thomas" and there is also "The Acts of Thomas" (post #357)

Yes, these both exist and are very early Judeo-Christian Documents and they also provide wonderful insights into early messianic Judaism (the Judaism that accepted the Messiah and subsequently became known as Christianity).

Most historically aware people I come in contact with are more familiar with the Gospel of Thomas while the Acts of Thomas is important. For example, the Acts of Thomas contains what used to be the earliest known Messianic Jewish Hymn "The Pearl". This absolutely wonderful hymn encapsulates and summarizes the purpose of God in creating mortality and sending embodied spirits to this mortal experience.

The Hymn starts out in reference to a representative spirit beginning in pre-mortality and describes God sending spirits to earth becoming embodied through birth to experience mortality with it's various moral encumbrances and then, those having ultimately chosen to learn and practice moral wisdom, that person is received back into the presence of God, having made moral and social progress and having learned moral and social principles which prepared him to ultimately live in a social heaven in harmony and joy.

While the Rabbis of Rabbinic Judaism prohibited any discussion of and inquiries into this period of time (pre-creation), the earlier pre-rabbinic (or non-rabbinic) Jewish documents are wonderful in their descriptions of this time period before this earth was created and describe even of the role of the Messiah/redeemer that was necessary to Gods' plan. For example, in Jewish Enoch, the prophet enoch visits pre-creation heaven in a vision when the savior/redeemer/messiah (who was there in the beginning with God the Father c.f. john 1:1) was chosen saying :

“1 Furthermore, in that place, I saw the fountain of righteousness, which does not become depleted and is surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones. 2 At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the head of days. 3 even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. 4 He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. 5 All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him: they shall glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. 6 For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of (the Lord of the Spirits) prior to the creation of the world, and for eternity. 7 And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of the Spirits to the righteous and the holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression (together with) all its ways of life and its habits in the name of the Lord of the Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life.” 1st Enoch 48:1-7;

In any case, the early Jewish and Christian literature are wonderful sources of descriptions of Gods purposes and the conditions of pre-creation that underlie current mortal conditions and Gods' ultimate purposes.

Good luck coming to your own beliefs paarsurrey.

Clear
 
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paarsurrey

Veteran Member
POST TWO OF TWO


To the degree that the rabbis created a theology which no longer reflected the ancient God, they created a textual idol and surrounding theological assumptions in the place of the early Jewish God.

Barnabas warns the Christians who are becoming proud : “..., do not continue to pile up your sins while claiming that your covenant is irrevocably yours, because in fact those people lost it completely in the following way, when Moses had just received it. ...But by turning to idols they lost it.. The Epistle of Barnabas 4:6.

In the context of the Jews losing their prophetic gifts and their transfer to the early Christians; in context of the Jews losing their temple with it’s priesthood worship and being left with synagoges instead; in the context of the Jews losing their priests and their being left with the necessity of turning to mere teachers (rabbis) instead, the texts tell us Israel was repeatedly warned that they were not maintaining authentic and pure religion :

The Prophet Ezra told his people : Hear these words, O Israel. At first our fathers dwelt as aliens in Egypt and they were delivered from there, 30 and received the Law of life, which they did not keep, which you also have transgressed after them. The land was given to you for a possession in the land of Zion; but you and your fathers committed iniquity and did not keep the ways which the Most High commanded you. And because he is a righteous judge, in due time he took from you what he had given. “ Fourth Book of Ezra 14:28-32;

The Lord tells the prophet Moses, speaking of Israel : And you, write for yourself all of these words which I shall cause you to know today, for I know their rebelliousness and their stubbornness before I cause them to enter the land which I swore to their fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying , ‘I will give to your seed a land flowing with milk and honey.’ And they will eat and be satisfied, and they will turn to strange gods, to those who cannot save them from any of their affliction. And this testimony will be heard as a testimony against them, for they will forget all of my commandments, everything which I shall command them...” Jubilees (the book of division) 1:4-10;

Levi tells his sons that :When vengeance will have come upon them from the Lord, the priesthood will lapse. “ and be given to another.” and after relating that which will happen to Israel, he sternly tells his children : “And now, my children, you have heard everything. Choose for yourselves light or darkness, the Law of the Lord or the works of Beliar.” Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs- Levi ch 18 & 19:1;


It is not simply that the Jews were adding to the biblical tradition, but by the rabbinical tradition, they have kept their followers from learning truth.

For example, In Deuteronomy 4:32 the Hebrew translation reads :
For inquire now regarding the early days that preceded you, from the day when God created man on the earth and from one end of heaven to the other end of heaven:...”

In Gen Rabba, the rabbis teach the Jews : IT is forbidden to inquire what existed before creation, as Moses distinctly tells us (Deut. 4. 32): 'Ask now of the days that are past which were before thee, since the day God created man upon earth.' Thus the scope of inquiry is limited to the time since the Creation.–(Gen. Rabba 1)

Such prohibitions against inquiring regarding conditions that existed in heaven before the creation create barriers to learning many, many of the most profoundly important truths concerning God; concerning his plan and his motives and conditions that allow mortality to make much more sense.

It is no wonder then that the earliest textual traditions that discuss and describe conditions before creation are relatively unknown among Jews who inherited such prohibitions to knowledge about such themes. It is just such prohibitions to knowledge that reminds me of Jesus’ trying to teach the Jews regarding conditions leading to ignorance of God.


Jesus said : "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Luke 11:52

This same tradition existed in other Christian traditions : The Gospel of Thomas also refers to this same condemnation of Jewish leaders, saying : Jesus said, “The Pharisees and the scribes have taken the keys of knowledge and hidden them. They themselves have not entered, nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to….” THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS vs 39;

Messianic Jews themselves were aware of this systematic problem and describe it in almost the same words : “They hold back the drink of knowledge from those that thirst, and for their thirst they give them vinegar to drink, that they might observe their error, behaving madly at their festivals and getting caught in their nets.” Dead Sea Scrolls 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q Col. 12:10-11

In another textual tradition, Moses is told by God that “...when the times of exposure come near and punishment arises through kings who (though) sharing their crimes yet punish them, then they themselves will be divided as to the truth. Consequently the word was fulfilled that they will avoid justice and approach iniquity; and they will pollute the house of their worship with the customs of the nations; and they will play the harlot after foreign gods. For they will not follow the truth of God, (Testament of Moses 5:1-6)

It was not merely the Messiah Jesus who described the Jewish temple as having become a den of thieves."( Mark 11:17), but the reformation espoused by Qumran Jews themselves is quite scathing in its condemnation of the Jewish priestly faction that administered in the Corrupted Jewish temple before it was destroyed by the Romans.

These sorts of abuse and doctrinal changes by Sadducees and Pharisees and later by rabbis as they rose to greater power (and the jewish Priesthood declined after destruction of the temple) may be part of why Jesus railed against certain of the Jews whohold the tradition of men” and “reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” Mark 7:7-9


IF, at some point, the Gospel of Salvation was contaminated by man-made traditions so that it could no longer be recognized and delivered to mankind in sufficient clarity among the Jewish traditions then it only makes sense that such truths would be cleaned up and delivered through another group (at least until the next group abuses and contaminates them in the same way the Jews did).

When Jesus prophesies to the Jews that “... The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matthew 21:42-43)

This prophecy was no different than that which the Prophet Ezra had predicted : “... You would not obey me, O Judah. I will turn to other nations and will give them my name, that they may keep my statutes. Because you have forsaken me, I also will forsake you. 25 When you beg mercy of me, I will show you no mercy. 26 When you call upon me, I will not listen to you; for you have defiled your hands with blood, and your feet are swift to commit murder. 27 It is not as though you had forsaken me; you have forsaken yourselves, ... (The Fourth Book of Ezra 1:24-37)

I’m going to stop here for now. I hope it makes sense just how the Rabbinical system creates theology that changes both the biblical texts meaning as well as the theology of Judaism itself. This is simply one mechanism underlying how Rabbinic Judaism apostatized from correct Prophetic Religion. Give me some time to think and I will add to this.

See you @paarsurrey

Clear
" This is simply one mechanism underlying how Rabbinic Judaism apostatized from correct Prophetic Religion. Give me some time to think and I will add to this. "
Friends @Eli G , @IndigoChild5559

Can one elaborate further as to what the followers of Rabbinic Judaism who call themselves Jews in our times could return to Prophetic Religion of Moses/Jacob(Israel)/Abraham , please, right?

Regards
 
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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
" This is simply one mechanism underlying how Rabbinic Judaism apostatized from correct Prophetic Religion. Give me some time to think and I will add to this. "
Friends @Eli G , @IndigoChild5559

Can one elaborate further as to what the followers of Rabbinic Judaism who call themselves Jews in our times could return to Prophetic Religion of Moses/Jacob(Israel)/Abraham , please, right?

Regards
Judaism is like a tree. A tree will look very different depending on when in its life cycle you examine it. It starts as a seed, becomes a sapling, which grows to an adult tree. But despite looking very different, it is obviously the same tree.
 
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