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Jewish Messiah
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
Paarsurrey said ; “Aren't all these ( one's quotes) only claims of Paul and others, nothing from Jesus in a straightforward, unambiguous and unequivocal manner in first person, please, right?? (post #420)
Hi @paarsurrey
I can’t be sure if you mean “first person” in a grammatical way (probably not) or if you mean “first hand” information or a “Primary source”.
1) FIRST PERSON EXPERIENCES VS SECOND HAND DESCRIPTIONS OF FIRST PERSON EXPERIENCES
I am not a grammarian (a person who works with grammar) but my understanding is as follows :
First person grammar
The scriptures are full of “first person”, “second person”, and “third person sentences and a mixture of the same. (I think you mean something else)
First Hand information
“First hand” religious information is gained directly by ones own direct experience rather than information other people or from texts..
For example, if you ask God if he exists and he actually appears to you, or speaks to you, then that is direct information and if you tell it to another person, they can say they heard you “first hand”.
The problem is that the direct experience itself is ONLY yours and the telling of it becomes second, or third hand upon others telling the story about you.
For example : “And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; 10 for I am with you, and no man shall attack you to harm you; for I have many people in this city. (Acts 18:9)
If Paul has this direct experience where the living and resurrected Messiah Jesus appears to him and speaks to him in this straightforward, unambiguous and unequivocal manner such as this, it is an experience which he cannot directly share but only describe to another.
If he described the experience to the traditional author of Acts (who was Luke) then Luke heard the story first hand but you are getting the edited story “second hand” at best.
If this is correct, then all religious testimonies from all sacred texts from any eon of time are a description from another person or persons (depending on editing of texts) and we are getting the stories second or third hand or even more distant (depending upon editing when we read almost any ancient religious record of size.
2) THE CLAIMS OF MESSIANIC JUDAISM/CHRISTIANITY ARE PROFOUND ("Tall Claims")
Paarsurrey said : “And these are not small claims, rather tall claims, on which the rests the whole foundation of Christendom, whatever of the , 45000+ denominations of it , as I understand, please?” (Post #420)
Regarding the “tall” (Profound) claims of Messianic Judaism / Christianity
I strongly agree with you that the claims of Ancient Messianic Judaism and early Christianity are profound “tall claims” as you put it and are of eternal consequence to the degree that they are true.
Regarding the “foundation” of ancient Messianic Judaism / Christianity
At this point in my life, I believe the foundation of authentic ancient religion did not and does not rest on texts, but rather it ultimately rested (and rests) on the existence of and relationship with a God and personal experience with and faith in that God.
So far, (excluding fakers and the mentally unstable) I cannot think of any stronger evidence for the existence of God than first hand personal and direct experience with that God through revelation in any age of time.
Having said that, I believe that textual information seems to be one of the most common avenues whereby individuals are introduced to and first learn about religion (some are introduced to and taught by other individuals, and other means).
Clear
Hi @paarsurrey
I can’t be sure if you mean “first person” in a grammatical way (probably not) or if you mean “first hand” information or a “Primary source”.
1) FIRST PERSON EXPERIENCES VS SECOND HAND DESCRIPTIONS OF FIRST PERSON EXPERIENCES
I am not a grammarian (a person who works with grammar) but my understanding is as follows :
First person grammar
The scriptures are full of “first person”, “second person”, and “third person sentences and a mixture of the same. (I think you mean something else)
First Hand information
“First hand” religious information is gained directly by ones own direct experience rather than information other people or from texts..
For example, if you ask God if he exists and he actually appears to you, or speaks to you, then that is direct information and if you tell it to another person, they can say they heard you “first hand”.
The problem is that the direct experience itself is ONLY yours and the telling of it becomes second, or third hand upon others telling the story about you.
For example : “And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; 10 for I am with you, and no man shall attack you to harm you; for I have many people in this city. (Acts 18:9)
If Paul has this direct experience where the living and resurrected Messiah Jesus appears to him and speaks to him in this straightforward, unambiguous and unequivocal manner such as this, it is an experience which he cannot directly share but only describe to another.
If he described the experience to the traditional author of Acts (who was Luke) then Luke heard the story first hand but you are getting the edited story “second hand” at best.
If this is correct, then all religious testimonies from all sacred texts from any eon of time are a description from another person or persons (depending on editing of texts) and we are getting the stories second or third hand or even more distant (depending upon editing when we read almost any ancient religious record of size.
2) THE CLAIMS OF MESSIANIC JUDAISM/CHRISTIANITY ARE PROFOUND ("Tall Claims")
Paarsurrey said : “And these are not small claims, rather tall claims, on which the rests the whole foundation of Christendom, whatever of the , 45000+ denominations of it , as I understand, please?” (Post #420)
Regarding the “tall” (Profound) claims of Messianic Judaism / Christianity
I strongly agree with you that the claims of Ancient Messianic Judaism and early Christianity are profound “tall claims” as you put it and are of eternal consequence to the degree that they are true.
Regarding the “foundation” of ancient Messianic Judaism / Christianity
At this point in my life, I believe the foundation of authentic ancient religion did not and does not rest on texts, but rather it ultimately rested (and rests) on the existence of and relationship with a God and personal experience with and faith in that God.
So far, (excluding fakers and the mentally unstable) I cannot think of any stronger evidence for the existence of God than first hand personal and direct experience with that God through revelation in any age of time.
Having said that, I believe that textual information seems to be one of the most common avenues whereby individuals are introduced to and first learn about religion (some are introduced to and taught by other individuals, and other means).
Clear
Last edited:
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It's not a theory, it's a claim.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
POST ONE OF THREE
Clear said :
Ebionite claimed : “Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9)." (post #409)
There are three parts to your claim.
1) No appointment by Jesus
2) Not a witness of Jesus
3) Not a minister of Jesus
We have already debunked two and three.
Let me review the debunking and turn to the first part of your claim.
1) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT A WITNESS FOR THE MESSIAH
Ebionite claims Paul was not a witness for the Messiah, yet multiple texts throughout the sacred histories tell us otherwise. Paul witnessed to the Messiah over and over and in all places he was able.
For examples :
Ananias is told by revelation from God that Paul will be a witness when God tells Ananias : He [Paul] is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.” I will show him…. (Acts 9:15)
Immediately after seeing the resurrected messiah Jesus and receiving his sight, Paul witnesses of the Messiah. The text says “…straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.” Acts 9:20
Paul frequently debates with the Jews, confounding them in his attempts to prove his claim and witness that Jesus was the Messiah, In Acts 9:22 it says “Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.”
The apostles themselves set Paul apart as a witness and minister for the Messiah Jesus. The text tells us this : …the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3
Speaking of king David, Paul witnesses of the Messiah Jesus saying : "…23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus. Acts 13:23
In Acts 13 30 is yet another example where Paul witnesses to the recalcitrant Jews regarding their Messiah Jesus’ resurrection and witnessing to the Jews that “God raised him [the messiah Jesus] from the dead. And for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.
Paul (and Barnabas) explain that they brought the witness of the Messiah to the Jews first, but were commanded by God discontinue their work with the recalcitrant sect of Judaism that rejected their Messiah, and bring their witness and ministering to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46-47 says : Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
Even when imprisoned, Paul witnesses for the Messiah Jesus. In the prison when the Jailer asked : “30 … Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul (and Silas) said ; “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ…” (acts 16:30)
The epicurians and stoics describe Paul witnessing of the resurrected Messiah Jesus, saying Paul and his companion “…preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.” Acts 17:18
Speaking of the Messiah Jesus’ return for the Messianic Age, Paul witnesses that God “…hath given assurance unto all men, in that he [God] hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead.” Acts 17:31
Acts 18:5 tells us that Paul continued to testify (witnessed) of the Messiah Jewish. The textual witness says : "Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. "
Even Ananias, who healed Paul is told by revelation that Paul will be appointed both to know what God wants AND to be a witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus. Acts tells us : “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight. And in that very hour I saw him. 14 And he said, “The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts 22:12
The sacred texts witness to us an example of the above promise Paul would be aware of Gods will as well as recognized as a witness by the Lord Messiah himself. The text says : “The following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:11)
Paul repeats his witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus in acts 26 : 14 while describing the story of the road to Damascus “ 16 “But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me to those in which I will show you, 17 delivering you from the people and from the gentiles – to whom I send you 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to the God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.
So, these and many, many other examples from the sacred texts could be brought to bear to show Paul indeed witnessed for the Messiah Jesus over and over. Now, onto the third portion of your claim before we investigate the first portion.
POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
Clear said :
Ebionite claimed : “Paul lied about being appointed as a minister and witness by Jesus while on the road to Damascus (Acts 26 vs Acts 9)." (post #409)
There are three parts to your claim.
1) No appointment by Jesus
2) Not a witness of Jesus
3) Not a minister of Jesus
We have already debunked two and three.
Let me review the debunking and turn to the first part of your claim.
1) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT A WITNESS FOR THE MESSIAH
Ebionite claims Paul was not a witness for the Messiah, yet multiple texts throughout the sacred histories tell us otherwise. Paul witnessed to the Messiah over and over and in all places he was able.
For examples :
Ananias is told by revelation from God that Paul will be a witness when God tells Ananias : He [Paul] is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel.” I will show him…. (Acts 9:15)
Immediately after seeing the resurrected messiah Jesus and receiving his sight, Paul witnesses of the Messiah. The text says “…straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.” Acts 9:20
Paul frequently debates with the Jews, confounding them in his attempts to prove his claim and witness that Jesus was the Messiah, In Acts 9:22 it says “Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.”
The apostles themselves set Paul apart as a witness and minister for the Messiah Jesus. The text tells us this : …the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3
Speaking of king David, Paul witnesses of the Messiah Jesus saying : "…23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus. Acts 13:23
In Acts 13 30 is yet another example where Paul witnesses to the recalcitrant Jews regarding their Messiah Jesus’ resurrection and witnessing to the Jews that “God raised him [the messiah Jesus] from the dead. And for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.
Paul (and Barnabas) explain that they brought the witness of the Messiah to the Jews first, but were commanded by God discontinue their work with the recalcitrant sect of Judaism that rejected their Messiah, and bring their witness and ministering to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46-47 says : Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
Even when imprisoned, Paul witnesses for the Messiah Jesus. In the prison when the Jailer asked : “30 … Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Paul (and Silas) said ; “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ…” (acts 16:30)
The epicurians and stoics describe Paul witnessing of the resurrected Messiah Jesus, saying Paul and his companion “…preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.” Acts 17:18
Speaking of the Messiah Jesus’ return for the Messianic Age, Paul witnesses that God “…hath given assurance unto all men, in that he [God] hath raised him [Jesus] from the dead.” Acts 17:31
Acts 18:5 tells us that Paul continued to testify (witnessed) of the Messiah Jewish. The textual witness says : "Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ. "
Even Ananias, who healed Paul is told by revelation that Paul will be appointed both to know what God wants AND to be a witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus. Acts tells us : “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight. And in that very hour I saw him. 14 And he said, “The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name. Acts 22:12
The sacred texts witness to us an example of the above promise Paul would be aware of Gods will as well as recognized as a witness by the Lord Messiah himself. The text says : “The following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.” (Acts 23:11)
Paul repeats his witness of the resurrected Messiah Jesus in acts 26 : 14 while describing the story of the road to Damascus “ 16 “But rise and stand upon your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and bear witness to the things in which you have seen me to those in which I will show you, 17 delivering you from the people and from the gentiles – to whom I send you 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to the God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.
So, these and many, many other examples from the sacred texts could be brought to bear to show Paul indeed witnessed for the Messiah Jesus over and over. Now, onto the third portion of your claim before we investigate the first portion.
POST TWO OF THREE FOLLOWS
POST TWO OF THREE
2) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT A MINISTER FOR THE MESSIAH
The problem for this claim is that there are MANY textual witnesses in the sacred texts tell us God DID use Paul in doing the work of the Messiah. (It also serves as evidence that the Prophet Ezras claim that the prophetic gifts would be taken from the Jews and given to the Messianic Jews/Christians was correct.)
A few examples of Paul ministering to individuals as a servant of the Messiah Jesus follow :
Acts tells us that Paul spoke in the name of Jesus : “And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus…” Acts 9:29
The text witness to us that the apostles themselves set Paul apart as a witness and minister for the Messiah Jesus. The text tells us this : …the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3
The narrative relates how Paul cursed the false prophet Elymas (who called himself bar-Jesus) blind with a word : "When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet, Elymas who called himself “Bar-Jesus.”
Paul curses Elymas (Bar-Jesus) : “”the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Acts 13 : 6,11.
In Iconium the Lord confirmed Paul and Barbabas’ message and allowed them to perform miracles by his power. The text witnesses to us that “Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders." (Acts 14:3)
The texts give us examples of these gifts of God given to Paul. In Lystra Paul heals the lame man who had faith in the Messiah.
The textual witness says : “ He [the Lame man] listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk. Acts 14:10
When the apostles others meet together, Paul relates the Ministering done by them by relating the signs and wonders God did through them. The text witness says : "And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. Acts 15:12
Paul does know the will of God as the Lord told Ananias (acts 22:12) through revelation given to him by the Lord as the textual witness tells us they were: “forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 “but the spirit of Jesus did not allow them: 9”And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing beseeching him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” (acts 16:6)
The resurrected Lord continues to communicate with Paul, reassuring Paul regarding the ministry the Messiah called him to. The textual witness of this says : “And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; 10 for I am with you, and no man shall attack you to harm you; for I have many people in this city. (Acts 18:9)
As more evidence of his ministry, Paul was given the ability to anoint others so that they also (after baptism), could have the gift of revelation through the Spirit. The textual witness from Acts says : “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them,; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” (acts 19:6)
It’s not just these things Paul did in his ministry for the Messiah, but the textual witness tells us further that “…God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. (Acts 19:11-12)
The text leaves other witnesses as comparison that the prophetic gifts were given to Paul that had been taken from the Jews (as the Prophet Ezra told them). Not only did the false Jewish Prophet to called himself “Bar-Jesus” become blind at Pauls’ word, but other Jews known as the “Sons of Sceva” tried to cast out a spirit “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches” (further evidence Paul preached/witnessed for the Messiah Jesus).
However, unlike Paul, they did not have any such powers given them and the episode ends badly for them as the texts witnesses. The text tells us the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.” (acts 19:13+)
The promise that Paul would know the Lords will is woven into the sacred narratives in many places. For example Paul relates that “When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw him [the Lord] saying to me, ‘Make haste and get quickly out of Jerusalem because they will not accept your testimony about me. 19 And I said , ‘Lord, they themselves know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in thee……21 And he [the Lord] said to me, ‘Depart; for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ (acts 22:17+)
Though I’ve only quoted and only from Acts and only those verses that are absolutely clear that Paul was a minister and a witness of the Messiah Jesus, it should be clear that if one reads the actual narrative, it is very clear that Paul was a continual minister for and witness of the Messiah Jesus.
3) EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT APPOINTED” TO WITNESS AND MINISTER FOR THE MESSIAH
While the first two parts of Ebionites theory are (obviously) debunked by simply reading the many, many, textual witnesses that tell us otherwise.
Lets return to the first portion of the theory about being “appointed” or not and whether the textual witnesses do not give us reason to believe Paul was appointed to be a witness and minister of the Messiah Jesus.
1a What does it mean to be "appointed" or "made" a witness and minister for the Messiah
Ebionite, what you think must happen to be “appointed” or “made” (kjv) a witness of or to minister for the Messiah Jesus.
Can you explain what your theory defines as being “appointed” by the resurrected Jesus?
POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS
2) REGARDING EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT A MINISTER FOR THE MESSIAH
The problem for this claim is that there are MANY textual witnesses in the sacred texts tell us God DID use Paul in doing the work of the Messiah. (It also serves as evidence that the Prophet Ezras claim that the prophetic gifts would be taken from the Jews and given to the Messianic Jews/Christians was correct.)
A few examples of Paul ministering to individuals as a servant of the Messiah Jesus follow :
Acts tells us that Paul spoke in the name of Jesus : “And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus…” Acts 9:29
The text witness to us that the apostles themselves set Paul apart as a witness and minister for the Messiah Jesus. The text tells us this : …the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. 3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. Acts 13:2-3
The narrative relates how Paul cursed the false prophet Elymas (who called himself bar-Jesus) blind with a word : "When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet, Elymas who called himself “Bar-Jesus.”
Paul curses Elymas (Bar-Jesus) : “”the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Acts 13 : 6,11.
In Iconium the Lord confirmed Paul and Barbabas’ message and allowed them to perform miracles by his power. The text witnesses to us that “Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders." (Acts 14:3)
The texts give us examples of these gifts of God given to Paul. In Lystra Paul heals the lame man who had faith in the Messiah.
The textual witness says : “ He [the Lame man] listened to Paul as he was speaking. Paul looked directly at him, saw that he had faith to be healed and called out, “Stand up on your feet!” At that, the man jumped up and began to walk. Acts 14:10
When the apostles others meet together, Paul relates the Ministering done by them by relating the signs and wonders God did through them. The text witness says : "And all the assembly kept silence; and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. Acts 15:12
Paul does know the will of God as the Lord told Ananias (acts 22:12) through revelation given to him by the Lord as the textual witness tells us they were: “forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia. 7 “but the spirit of Jesus did not allow them: 9”And a vision appeared to Paul in the night: a man of Macedonia was standing beseeching him and saying, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” (acts 16:6)
The resurrected Lord continues to communicate with Paul, reassuring Paul regarding the ministry the Messiah called him to. The textual witness of this says : “And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but speak and do not be silent; 10 for I am with you, and no man shall attack you to harm you; for I have many people in this city. (Acts 18:9)
As more evidence of his ministry, Paul was given the ability to anoint others so that they also (after baptism), could have the gift of revelation through the Spirit. The textual witness from Acts says : “And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them,; and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.” (acts 19:6)
It’s not just these things Paul did in his ministry for the Messiah, but the textual witness tells us further that “…God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them. (Acts 19:11-12)
The text leaves other witnesses as comparison that the prophetic gifts were given to Paul that had been taken from the Jews (as the Prophet Ezra told them). Not only did the false Jewish Prophet to called himself “Bar-Jesus” become blind at Pauls’ word, but other Jews known as the “Sons of Sceva” tried to cast out a spirit “In the name of the Jesus whom Paul preaches” (further evidence Paul preached/witnessed for the Messiah Jesus).
However, unlike Paul, they did not have any such powers given them and the episode ends badly for them as the texts witnesses. The text tells us the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know about, but who are you?” 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.” (acts 19:13+)
The promise that Paul would know the Lords will is woven into the sacred narratives in many places. For example Paul relates that “When I had returned to Jerusalem and was praying in the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw him [the Lord] saying to me, ‘Make haste and get quickly out of Jerusalem because they will not accept your testimony about me. 19 And I said , ‘Lord, they themselves know that in every synagogue I imprisoned and beat those who believed in thee……21 And he [the Lord] said to me, ‘Depart; for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ (acts 22:17+)
Though I’ve only quoted and only from Acts and only those verses that are absolutely clear that Paul was a minister and a witness of the Messiah Jesus, it should be clear that if one reads the actual narrative, it is very clear that Paul was a continual minister for and witness of the Messiah Jesus.
3) EBIONITES CLAIM THAT PAUL WAS NOT APPOINTED” TO WITNESS AND MINISTER FOR THE MESSIAH
While the first two parts of Ebionites theory are (obviously) debunked by simply reading the many, many, textual witnesses that tell us otherwise.
Lets return to the first portion of the theory about being “appointed” or not and whether the textual witnesses do not give us reason to believe Paul was appointed to be a witness and minister of the Messiah Jesus.
1a What does it mean to be "appointed" or "made" a witness and minister for the Messiah
Ebionite, what you think must happen to be “appointed” or “made” (kjv) a witness of or to minister for the Messiah Jesus.
Can you explain what your theory defines as being “appointed” by the resurrected Jesus?
POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS
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POST THREE OF THREE
1) REGARDING EBIONITES' UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM
Ebionite responded : “It's not a theory, it's a claim.” (post #423)
Theory = an idea used to account for a situation
Claim (verb) : to state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
Claim (noun) : an assertion of the truth of something, typically one that is disputed or in doubt.
We can use the word “claim” if you want since your "claim" fits the definition of an "assertion...without providing evidence or proof" and your claim is an assertion "that is disputed or in doubt".
Since you have provided no data that proves or substantiates your claim that Paul was not an authentic witness for the Messiah Jesus, then your claim remains an “unsubstantiated claim”.
2) DO SIMPLE OMISSIONS IN THE NARATIVE (OR LATER ADDITIONAL DATA) INDICATE FALSE PROPHETS?
Just as I become a witness to a car accident by virtue of seeing the accident, Paul becomes a witness of the resurrected Jesus by virtue of actually witnessing that the Messiah was alive and communicating with Paul when the Messiah came to Paul on the road to Damascus.
Ebionite pointed out that Lukes' writing of Acts Chapt 9 has no mention of Paul being a witness and minister of the Messiah Jesus by Annanias whereas Paul in Chapt 26 includes a larger narrative.
Ebionite, you Claim, but have not substantiated that an omission or subsequent additional clarifying narrative demonstrates Paul was lying.
3) ARE EBIONITE AND I BOTH LIARS SIMPLY BECAUSE WE ALSO HAVE OMITTED NARRATIVE WHICH WE LATER ADDED TO OUR POSTS?
Ebionite, you yourself demonstrated that both you and I have done exactly the same thing in omitting many, many quotes in our multiple posts. We also have added multiple quotes and more additional narrative to our posts.
If we apply your unsubstantiated claim that “omission=lying”, then are you a liar simply because you omitted some of the narrative? Are you lying when you add additional narrative to our discussion?
If you are not lying, why apply a rule to Paul that you do not apply to yourself?
4) WHAT HAPPENS IF WE APPLY EBIONITES UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM THAT “OMISSIONS = LIAR” TO THE NARRATIVES OF OTHER PROPHETS?
Applying this silly rule to Moses makes Moses a false prophet.
For example, In Exodus 2 the text tells us that Moses Marries a woman of Midian, Zipporah.
However, in Numbers 12, Moses’ narrative mentions Moses also married a woman of Cush as well.
IF this rule of “omission=Liar” is correct, then Mose becomes a false prophet by the same rule Ebionite applies to Lukes Narrative about Paul.
The rule makes Moses a False Prophet.
Applying this silly rule to Abraham makes Abraham a false prophet.
What if we apply this rule of “omission=Liar” to Abraham?
In Genesis 12 and again in Genesis 20, Abraham told individuals that his wife Sarah was his sister. In the narrative, Abraham omits the actual relationship or he outright lies.
According to Ebionites use of “omission=Liar” then Abraham is a false prophet.
If Abraham is actually lying, Ebionites unsubstantiated claim also makes Abraham a false prophet for the same reason Ebionites unsubstantiated claim declares Paul a false witness and minister.
Do readers need further examples of multiple omissions in multiple narratives in the scriptures that demonstrate what happens if this rule is applied fairly to all prophetic narratives in the sacred texts?
5) WHY DOES EBIONITES UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM CONDEMN PAUL FOR A NARRATIVE THAT PAUL DID NOT EVEN WRITE?
Ebionites claim does not tell us why he condemns Paul instead of Luke when Luke is the actual writer of the narrative containing the omission that Ebionite claims indicates a lie.
Ebionite, why do you condemn Paul for a potential fault in a narrative he did not even write?
If you think Paul is to blame instead of the writer, then substantiate this claim as well.
Should we apply your rule to the ancient Prophets as well?
If narrative "omissions=lying" and we apply it to the many, many, many omissions in sacred text, should we then call prophets liars or false prophets because of these omissions?
IF we find that many of the ancient prophets are found to be false prophets by virtue of this rule, what will happen to the faith of those who had put their faith in these prophets before they learned of your claim and it’s consequences?
The apostle Peter warned : "some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Pet 3:16
As the apostle pointed our, You rule will destroy faith in Paul as well as in other authentic ancient prophets if we apply it fairly to all.
6) ARE SUCH UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS LEGITIMATE OR DO THEY TYPICALLY REPRESENT MODERN “PERSECUTION” OF THE PROPHETS AND ATTEMPTS TO JUSTIFY REJECTION OF THE MESSIAH JESUS?
The scriptures witness to us that the Jews often persecuted true prophets.
Is this rule simply another attempt to “stir people up” against the apostle Paul who witnessed for the Messiah?
For examples :
The Messiah Jesus pointed out that the Jews of his time persecuted and killed the prophets, saying : “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ (LUKE 11:49)
The sacred texts tell us that the Jews who rejected the Messiah Jesus “stirred up” others against Paul and others who had accepted the Messiah. For examples :
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. (Acts 13:45)
and
But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. (Acts 14:2)
While Ebionites unsubstantiated claim that “omission=liar” is not particularly rational and logical since the number of similar omissions in text are many, do other similar unsubstantiated and irrational claims (in the main) represent a modern tendency by non-believers to persecute the prophets and is the purpose of such claims to justify rejecting the Messiah/Savior/Christ?
Ebionite I do not want to imply that I know your specific unsubstantiated claim is motivated simply by a desire to justify your rejection of the Messiah, but I am referring to the use of this and other theories/claims/unsubstantiated claims/"stirring up" of others against the Messiah Jesus that the Apostle Peter described as being destructive and used to justify rejection of the Messiah Jesus.
Can you try to substantiate your unsubstantiated claims by answering these initial questions you were given?
Clear
μνεν ο καιρο ακ μ
1) REGARDING EBIONITES' UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM
Ebionite responded : “It's not a theory, it's a claim.” (post #423)
Theory = an idea used to account for a situation
Claim (verb) : to state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
Claim (noun) : an assertion of the truth of something, typically one that is disputed or in doubt.
We can use the word “claim” if you want since your "claim" fits the definition of an "assertion...without providing evidence or proof" and your claim is an assertion "that is disputed or in doubt".
Since you have provided no data that proves or substantiates your claim that Paul was not an authentic witness for the Messiah Jesus, then your claim remains an “unsubstantiated claim”.
2) DO SIMPLE OMISSIONS IN THE NARATIVE (OR LATER ADDITIONAL DATA) INDICATE FALSE PROPHETS?
Just as I become a witness to a car accident by virtue of seeing the accident, Paul becomes a witness of the resurrected Jesus by virtue of actually witnessing that the Messiah was alive and communicating with Paul when the Messiah came to Paul on the road to Damascus.
Ebionite pointed out that Lukes' writing of Acts Chapt 9 has no mention of Paul being a witness and minister of the Messiah Jesus by Annanias whereas Paul in Chapt 26 includes a larger narrative.
Ebionite, you Claim, but have not substantiated that an omission or subsequent additional clarifying narrative demonstrates Paul was lying.
3) ARE EBIONITE AND I BOTH LIARS SIMPLY BECAUSE WE ALSO HAVE OMITTED NARRATIVE WHICH WE LATER ADDED TO OUR POSTS?
Ebionite, you yourself demonstrated that both you and I have done exactly the same thing in omitting many, many quotes in our multiple posts. We also have added multiple quotes and more additional narrative to our posts.
If we apply your unsubstantiated claim that “omission=lying”, then are you a liar simply because you omitted some of the narrative? Are you lying when you add additional narrative to our discussion?
If you are not lying, why apply a rule to Paul that you do not apply to yourself?
4) WHAT HAPPENS IF WE APPLY EBIONITES UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM THAT “OMISSIONS = LIAR” TO THE NARRATIVES OF OTHER PROPHETS?
Applying this silly rule to Moses makes Moses a false prophet.
For example, In Exodus 2 the text tells us that Moses Marries a woman of Midian, Zipporah.
However, in Numbers 12, Moses’ narrative mentions Moses also married a woman of Cush as well.
IF this rule of “omission=Liar” is correct, then Mose becomes a false prophet by the same rule Ebionite applies to Lukes Narrative about Paul.
The rule makes Moses a False Prophet.
Applying this silly rule to Abraham makes Abraham a false prophet.
What if we apply this rule of “omission=Liar” to Abraham?
In Genesis 12 and again in Genesis 20, Abraham told individuals that his wife Sarah was his sister. In the narrative, Abraham omits the actual relationship or he outright lies.
According to Ebionites use of “omission=Liar” then Abraham is a false prophet.
If Abraham is actually lying, Ebionites unsubstantiated claim also makes Abraham a false prophet for the same reason Ebionites unsubstantiated claim declares Paul a false witness and minister.
Do readers need further examples of multiple omissions in multiple narratives in the scriptures that demonstrate what happens if this rule is applied fairly to all prophetic narratives in the sacred texts?
5) WHY DOES EBIONITES UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM CONDEMN PAUL FOR A NARRATIVE THAT PAUL DID NOT EVEN WRITE?
Ebionites claim does not tell us why he condemns Paul instead of Luke when Luke is the actual writer of the narrative containing the omission that Ebionite claims indicates a lie.
Ebionite, why do you condemn Paul for a potential fault in a narrative he did not even write?
If you think Paul is to blame instead of the writer, then substantiate this claim as well.
Should we apply your rule to the ancient Prophets as well?
If narrative "omissions=lying" and we apply it to the many, many, many omissions in sacred text, should we then call prophets liars or false prophets because of these omissions?
IF we find that many of the ancient prophets are found to be false prophets by virtue of this rule, what will happen to the faith of those who had put their faith in these prophets before they learned of your claim and it’s consequences?
The apostle Peter warned : "some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Pet 3:16
As the apostle pointed our, You rule will destroy faith in Paul as well as in other authentic ancient prophets if we apply it fairly to all.
6) ARE SUCH UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIMS LEGITIMATE OR DO THEY TYPICALLY REPRESENT MODERN “PERSECUTION” OF THE PROPHETS AND ATTEMPTS TO JUSTIFY REJECTION OF THE MESSIAH JESUS?
The scriptures witness to us that the Jews often persecuted true prophets.
Is this rule simply another attempt to “stir people up” against the apostle Paul who witnessed for the Messiah?
For examples :
The Messiah Jesus pointed out that the Jews of his time persecuted and killed the prophets, saying : “Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your ancestors who killed them. So you testify that you approve of what your ancestors did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. Because of this, God in his wisdom said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.’ (LUKE 11:49)
The sacred texts tell us that the Jews who rejected the Messiah Jesus “stirred up” others against Paul and others who had accepted the Messiah. For examples :
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. (Acts 13:45)
and
But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. (Acts 14:2)
While Ebionites unsubstantiated claim that “omission=liar” is not particularly rational and logical since the number of similar omissions in text are many, do other similar unsubstantiated and irrational claims (in the main) represent a modern tendency by non-believers to persecute the prophets and is the purpose of such claims to justify rejecting the Messiah/Savior/Christ?
Ebionite I do not want to imply that I know your specific unsubstantiated claim is motivated simply by a desire to justify your rejection of the Messiah, but I am referring to the use of this and other theories/claims/unsubstantiated claims/"stirring up" of others against the Messiah Jesus that the Apostle Peter described as being destructive and used to justify rejection of the Messiah Jesus.
Can you try to substantiate your unsubstantiated claims by answering these initial questions you were given?
Clear
μνεν ο καιρο ακ μ
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Acts 26:9 I, for one, was convinced that I should commit many acts of opposition against the name of Jesus the Nazarene. 10 This is exactly what I did in Jerusalem, and I locked up many of the holy ones in prisons, for I had received authority from the chief priests; and when they were to be executed, I cast my vote against them. 11 By punishing them often in all the synagogues, I tried to force them to recant; and since I was extremely furious with them, I went so far as to persecute them even in outlying cities.
12 While doing this as I was traveling to Damascus with authority and a commission from the chief priests ...
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
It's about the differences between Acts 26 and Acts 9. There is also circumstantial evidence that Paul and others were the false apostles rejected at Ephesus.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The evidence that I have provided in this thread includes a description of the differences between Acts 26 and Acts 9.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
You haven't shown anything from Acts 26 which describes how Paul was told to go Damascus by Jesus as is described in Acts 9 and Acts 22.
The point is that Paul's story changed - it wasn't simply a case of more detail being added like you said.
1) EBIONITES UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM LACKS IMPORTANT SUPPORT
@Eli G said : “12 While doing this as I was traveling to Damascus with authority and a commission from the chief priests ..” (post #428)
@Ebionite replied : “You haven't shown anything from Acts 26 which describes how Paul was told to go Damascus by Jesus as is described in Acts 9 and Acts 22”
So, to be clear, your unsubstantiated claim rests on the fact that in Lukes’ Narrative, Luke does not report to King Agripa that Paul was sent to Damascus when the King already knows Paul was sent to Damascus by the Jews to persecute the Christians when the King already knows Paul was sent to, going to and found IN Damascus when the Jews accosted Paul and his controversy with the Jews started?
Really?
Why would Luke even need to include that detail in his telling of the story of Paul?
What would be the necessity for Luke?
2) THE FACT THAT EBIONITES UNSUBSTANTIATED CLAIM LACKS SUPPORT MEANS THIS CLAIM, LIKE THE OTHERS, CAN BE DISMISSED UNLESS HE CAN OFFER SUPPORT FOR IT.
While the last two parts of Ebionites claim have been debunked in posts #425 and #426, the third portion of his claim fairs no better.
Without some sort of rational and logical support for Ebionites, claim, it remains an illogical and silly claim with unintended consequences.
For examples :
A) Ebionites unsubstantiated claim does not even distinguish between Paul who did not write the text Ebionite quotes from and the author of the text. Ebionite has not told us why he blames Paul instead of the author of the text he criticizes.
The goal seems to simply be to criticize Paul.
b) Ebionites unsubstantiated claim incorrectly equates an omission in the early story in Acts 9 with a more detailed version in Acts 26 as a lie but does not equate his own various omissions and later detailed discussion with lying.
Why is Paul a liar because of a simply omission in the text but not Ebionite when he does the same thing?
This Ebionites unsubstantiated claim refuses to answer the question as to why Lukes' omission make Paul a liar but Ebionites MANY omissions does not make Ebionite a Liar?
C) Ebionites unsubstantiated claim that equates textual omissions in the sacred text with lying creates a rule that catches many, many other prophets in it’s net and makes them liars and "false witnesses” (his definition) as well.
For example, Ebionites creation of this “rule” means Moses is a false prophet and Abraham, etc.
D) Ebionite (so far) refuses to explain why his criteria only applies to Paul.
G) Ebionites unsubstantiated claim relies on the silly assumption that Annanias only spoke 33 words to Paul and no more (NIV) during the “several days” Paul spends with the disciples in Damascus.
Is there anyone in the forum who actually believes this assumption that no other discussion took place between Paul and Annanias and the other disciples during these "several days"?
Anyone?
Unless Ebionite can substantiate his unsubstantiated claim, the claim can be dismissed out of hand as a modern version of what the Jews did anciently :
When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. (Acts 13:45)
But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. (Acts 14:2)
Ebionite. Your refusal to offer any rational and logical answers to such questions (so far) is good evidence that you have no real rational and logical data to support your claim. This is the fifth strike out in a row for you.
DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE THE DATA AND SUPPORT FOR THIS SPECIFIC CLAIM EBIONITE IS MAKING THAT EBIONITE LACKS?
Does anyone else in the forum believe in Ebionites unsubstantiated claim enough to try to answer the questions Ebionite was asked but refused to answer?
Clear
σημερα εισ νε μ
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Ebionite
Well-Known Member
My claim is substantiated by the differences between Paul's account of events in Acts 26 and the accounts of events from Acts 9.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
The substance of the claim is that:
Paul's actual role was:
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:15-16
Bearing the name complements Peter's role, since Peter denied the name.
Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
But he denied before [them] all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
And when he was gone out into the porch, another [maid] saw him, and said unto them that were there, This [fellow] was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
And after a while came unto [him] they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art [one] of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
Then began he to curse and to swear, [saying], I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Matthew 26:69-75
The biblical account is clear:
1) Saul was sent by the Pharisees to Damascus to persecute Christians there.
Acts 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women.
... 22:4 I persecuted this Way to the point of death, binding and handing over to prisons both men and women, 5 as the high priest and all the assembly of elders can bear witness. From them I also obtained letters to the brothers in Damascus, and I was on my way to bring those who were there in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.
2) Saul was "getting near to Damascus" on his anti-Christian mission when Jesus appeared to him.
Acts 9:3 Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him
... 22:6 But as I was traveling and getting near to Damascus, about midday, suddenly out of heaven a great light flashed all around me ...
3) Jesus told Saul to go to Damascus, his previous destination, and that there he must do certain things.
Acts 22:10 At that I said: ‘What should I do, Lord?’ The Lord said to me: ‘Rise, go into Damascus, and there you will be told about everything it is appointed for you to do.’
4) Saul met Ananias, was baptized and remained preaching Jesus in Damascus for a time, confusing the Jews who already knew him as a persecutor of Christians.
Acts 9:8 Saul then got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. (...) 19 (...) He stayed for some days with the disciples in Damascus, 20 and immediately in the synagogues he began to preach about Jesus, that this one is the Son of God. 21 But all those hearing him were astonished and were saying: “Is this not the man who ravaged those in Jerusalem who call on this name? Did he not come here for the purpose of arresting them and taking them to the chief priests?” 22 But Saul kept on acquiring more and more power and was confounding the Jews who lived in Damascus, as he proved logically that this is the Christ.
... 26:19 Therefore, King Agrippa, I did not become disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but to those in Damascus first (...)
The event in which Jesus tells Saul to continue on his way to where he was going, Damascus, is only recorded in Acts. 22:10, but it does not contradict at all the rest of the story according to the other biblical accounts. Rather, it explains to us why Paul continued to Damascus instead of returning to Jerusalem where he had come from.
1) Saul was sent by the Pharisees to Damascus to persecute Christians there.
Acts 9:1 But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women.
... 22:4 I persecuted this Way to the point of death, binding and handing over to prisons both men and women, 5 as the high priest and all the assembly of elders can bear witness. From them I also obtained letters to the brothers in Damascus, and I was on my way to bring those who were there in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.
2) Saul was "getting near to Damascus" on his anti-Christian mission when Jesus appeared to him.
Acts 9:3 Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him
... 22:6 But as I was traveling and getting near to Damascus, about midday, suddenly out of heaven a great light flashed all around me ...
3) Jesus told Saul to go to Damascus, his previous destination, and that there he must do certain things.
Acts 22:10 At that I said: ‘What should I do, Lord?’ The Lord said to me: ‘Rise, go into Damascus, and there you will be told about everything it is appointed for you to do.’
4) Saul met Ananias, was baptized and remained preaching Jesus in Damascus for a time, confusing the Jews who already knew him as a persecutor of Christians.
Acts 9:8 Saul then got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. (...) 19 (...) He stayed for some days with the disciples in Damascus, 20 and immediately in the synagogues he began to preach about Jesus, that this one is the Son of God. 21 But all those hearing him were astonished and were saying: “Is this not the man who ravaged those in Jerusalem who call on this name? Did he not come here for the purpose of arresting them and taking them to the chief priests?” 22 But Saul kept on acquiring more and more power and was confounding the Jews who lived in Damascus, as he proved logically that this is the Christ.
... 26:19 Therefore, King Agrippa, I did not become disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but to those in Damascus first (...)
The event in which Jesus tells Saul to continue on his way to where he was going, Damascus, is only recorded in Acts. 22:10, but it does not contradict at all the rest of the story according to the other biblical accounts. Rather, it explains to us why Paul continued to Damascus instead of returning to Jerusalem where he had come from.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is just another way to avoid reality and live in fantasyland.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe many of them were written by Jews.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Isa. 66:15 “For behold, the LORD will come in fire,
and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
I believe this is future when Jesus returns as one who delivers Israel from her enemies. Concept was correct but timing was not.
and his chariots like the whirlwind,
to render his anger in fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.
I believe this is future when Jesus returns as one who delivers Israel from her enemies. Concept was correct but timing was not.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
That's incorrect. Christian texts refer to the prophetic texts of Judaism. Christianity reinterprets them, but those interpretations are not the same thing as the texts themselves.
Ebionite
Well-Known Member
Only if Paul/Saul's testimony in Acts 26 is interpreted as being untruthful.
No, there were no Christians at that time.
And when he had found [Saul], he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Acts 11:26
Acts 22 contradicts Acts 26 because in Acts 26 Saul isn't told to go to Damascus but instead is told that he is to be a minister and witness when his actual role was to bear the name and to suffer.
And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
Acts 22:7-10
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:14-18
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
Acts 9:15-16