Jews, Ezra and Qur'an

[Rival]

Worst of creatures in Judgement day , in fire of hell .that's your degree in that time . NOT NOW.

Yes, I understand this, but what changes? I will be the same on judgement day as I am now, a Christian. So what is the tangible difference?

I am 100000% sure that neither Tumah nor I will convert to Islam, so to all intents and purposes we are already 'worst of creatures' as Qur'an has already damned us to Hell.

Also, there are plenty of ahadith describing Muslim revulsion at Christians and Jews, but since every hadith we bring up is 'weak' or somehow not good enough, I won't bother.

 

[rosends]

Anyway .
So you deny that Talmud had racist teaching ?


Good process that you admit that.

The talmud is a book of legal thought, history and a record of conversations. There are times when the people quoted said things that are non-scientific or unflattering to others. The New York Times also records opinions and quotes of all sorts of people. Does that necessarily make the NYT racist? You clearly have never studied the talmud, so why do you presume to understand it?

 

[Godobeyer]

I have no idea what you mean here.
What I'm saying is that all the other information in the ayat are all about the present. Therefore this part of the ayah is also referring to the present- just in the immediate past.
"I was just talking to Godobeyer and he said he was a Muslim."
Is he still?

Good exemple, to understand more the past tense!!
If I said I am Muslim last year,maybe I am now (today) convert to Judaism ?

You're wrong. Being "chosen" is not the same as being G-d's children. G-d calls Israel His "first born son". That means that other nations that are also His sons. First means that there are others.

Ok Choses people and sons of God, is just my imagination

You have to explain.

I explain it maybe more than 10 times.

No they were all non-Jews.

I never said they were Jews.
I said they are the breed of Jews (hebrews...etc)

There's a few reasons, but I'm not sure how much you will understand.
According to Jewish sources, the non-Jews refused to follow any of G-d's commandments.
Besides for that, I don't think there's really a need for non-Jewish prophets at this point. The Noahide Laws were already spelled out, so they knew what they had to do. A nation was designated to carry the banner, so there would always be a reminder. What further purpose would a prophet fulfill?

but you did not mention how much prophet's sent to non-Jews.
Whom never related/breed to Jews after Moses(pbuh)?

Why are you putting pbuh by Messiah, when you don't believe in one?

Jesus(pbuh) = Messiah(pbuh).

In which issue? The messiah? No. The Messiah will be the king of the whole world, not just the Jews. He'll return us to our land and govern over us as well. But that's not because we're special, its because we're in exile. That's something that's simply not relevant to other nations. But as for the rest of the things that he does, that relates to the whole world, not just us.

Good that you retire you words about God stopped prophesy at Moses(pbuh).

In what way was I wrong? The last non-Jewish prophet was Bil'am. He was from the same time as Moses.

He breed from Lot !

Give me one single prophet not breed to Jewish prophets.

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, I understand this, but what changes? I will be the same on judgement day as I am now, a Christian. So what is the tangible difference?

I am 100000% sure that neither Tumah nor I will convert to Islam, so to all intents and purposes we are already 'worst of creatures' as Qur'an has already damned us to Hell.

Also, there are plenty of ahadith describing Muslim revulsion at Christians and Jews, but since every hadith we bring up is 'weak' or somehow not good enough, I won't bother.

You need to make different between present and future as Tamud made different between past and present

What change? the change you will find out later.

evil of creatures: actuatly does not mean in Arabic context "BAD", it's meant "losers", if you don't believe me, ask @Debater Slayer ,he is very probably agree with that meaning.


Yes it's good that you don't bother about some Hadiths, because I don't bother too

 

[Rival]

@Godobeyer, why do you desire so much for a, say, Egyptian born prophet non-Jewish descent? Is there a problem?

 

[Tumah]

Good exemple, to understand more the past tense!!
If I said I am Muslim last year,maybe I am now (today) convert to Judaism ?

Maybe. But if you said "I am Muslims last year and Rival was Christian last year". Then I will say, since Rival is still a Christian, you probably are also still a Muslim. Otherwise you would split the statement into two different sentences, so that I would know not to connect them.

Ok Choses people and sons of God, is just my imagination

Finally you are catching on.

I explain it maybe more than 10 times.

The letters "OP" is not an explanation of anything.

I never said they were Jews.
I said they are the breed of Jews (hebrews...etc)

There is no such thing as "breed of Jews". The Middle East are all Semites. Jews are only those people that stood at Mt. Sinai and received the Torah from G-d.

but you did not mention how much prophet's sent to non-Jews.
Whom never related/breed to Jews after Moses(pbuh)?

As above.

Jesus(pbuh) = Messiah(pbuh).

Jews are not waiting for Jesus.

Good that you retire you words about God stopped prophesy at Moses(pbuh).

Prophecy to non-Jews stopped at Moses. I haven't stopped saying that. For Jews it continued for an additional ~1000 years. Then it paused for Jews as well. And will remain paused until the messiah who is not Jesus will come.

He breed from Lot !

Give me one single prophet not breed to Jewish prophets.

As above.

 

[Godobeyer]

The talmud is a book of legal thought, history and a record of conversations. There are times when the people quoted said things that are non-scientific or unflattering to others. The New York Times also records opinions and quotes of all sorts of people. Does that necessarily make the NYT racist? You clearly have never studied the talmud, so why do you presume to understand it?

Whom study it, explain it's teaching .


Religious Jews are asked about the Talmud

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef says in Saturday sermon that 'Goyim have no place in the world - only to serve the People of Israel
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/adl-s...ing-non-jews-were-born-to-serve-jews-1.320235
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/adl-s...ing-non-jews-were-born-to-serve-jews-1.320235

 

[Godobeyer]

@Godobeyer, why do you desire so much for a, say, Egyptian born prophet non-Jewish descent? Is there a problem?

That's long story sister, between me and Tamuh .

It's was problem begin by Tamuh, he ask me to name him a prophet not exist in Torah/Quran sent to other nations.

He like to say Quran is just copy/paste of Torah.

 

[Godobeyer]

Maybe. But if you said "I am Muslims last year and Rival was Christian last year". Then I will say, since Rival is still a Christian, you probably are also still a Muslim. Otherwise you would split the statement into two different sentences, so that I would know not to connect them.

It's good that you used the word "probably",thats make good process

Finally you are catching on.

Only if you don't understand that I was kiding.

The letters "OP" is not an explanation of anything.

Sure, for stubborn people.
will make even past equal to present.

There is no such thing as "breed of Jews". The Middle East are all Semites. Jews are only those people that stood at Mt. Sinai and received the Torah from G-d.

This is it, all semites, but in reality many consider Jews only, are semitic . anti-semitic is ONLY to Jews.

Jews are not waiting for Jesus.

I know.

Prophecy to non-Jews stopped at Moses. I haven't stopped saying that. For Jews it continued for an additional ~1000 years. Then it paused for Jews as well. And will remain paused until the messiah who is not Jesus will come.

That's not what you said before. you said prophesy stopped at Moses . just admit you made a mistake, that would not hurt[/QUOTE]

 

[Tumah]

Whom study it, explain it's teaching .


Religious Jews are asked about the Talmud

You haven't even watched the video.

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef says in Saturday sermon that 'Goyim have no place in the world - only to serve the People of Israel
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/adl-s...ing-non-jews-were-born-to-serve-jews-1.320235
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/adl-s...ing-non-jews-were-born-to-serve-jews-1.320235

You are already doing it.

 

[Godobeyer]

You haven't even watched the video.

I watch it, these are religious people , I don't care about ordinary people.

You are already doing it.

and I will keep doing it.
the important is:
Do you condemn it's racist teaching of Talmud ?

 

[Tumah]

It's good that you used the word "probably",thats make good process

You will have to give a more thoughtful response.

Only if you don't understand that I was kiding.

I understand you were kidding. But I also understand that you didn't make an argument to prove me wrong. Because as you've shown us, you believe what you want, even without evidence.

Sure, for stubborn people.
will make even past equal to present.

My stubbornness is in that I haven't given up trying to explain to you how to use your mind. You were raised in a culture that doesn't teach you to think for yourself and I have been working hard here to help you learn. You think that I am saying this to antagonize you, but I am not. I am friendly with a few Muslims here and I have no problem with you being Muslim. I don't want you to become Jewish or even kafir. I am not against Muslim people. I am not your enemy, no matter what your shaykh teaches you about me.

All I am trying to do here, is to get you to think for yourself. To see the words, without what you were taught. Then you will be able to understand where all these accusations are coming from. To be able to open your mind to another person's point of view- even without accepting it. All-h blessed us with intelligence, not just memorization. He wants us to think, not parrot. This has been the biggest stumbling block of your culture. The non-Muslims of this forum that argue with you don't despise you and the other Muslims for being Muslim. They are upset that you are not using the intelligence that All-h gave you to think about what you are being taught and instead you only repeat it.

This is it, all semites, but in reality many consider Jews only, are semitic . anti-semitic is ONLY to Jews.

Its true that antisemitism is a term that was made to refer to Jews.
But the word Semitic refers to the people who the Torah says are the children of Shem (Shem became Sem), the son of Noah. That includes all the people in the Middle East, except Africa.
Its confusing for someone who is not used to English, but that's how it is.

Jews are not waiting for Jesus.


Prophecy to non-Jews stopped at Moses. I haven't stopped saying that. For Jews it continued for an additional ~1000 years. Then it paused for Jews as well. And will remain paused until the messiah who is not Jesus will come.


As above.

It looks like you left some stuff out here.

 

[Tumah]

I watch it, these are religious people , I don't care about ordinary people.

You didn't watch the whole video.

and I will keep doing it.
the important is:
Do you condemn it's racist teaching of Talmud ?

I mean, you are already serving the Jewish people.

 

[rosends]

Whom study it, explain it's teaching .


Religious Jews are asked about the Talmud

Rabbi Ovadia Yosef says in Saturday sermon that 'Goyim have no place in the world - only to serve the People of Israel
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/adl-s...ing-non-jews-were-born-to-serve-jews-1.320235
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/adl-s...ing-non-jews-were-born-to-serve-jews-1.320235

yeah...I'm 15 minutes in and I don't see anything racist. The interviewer starts with invented quotes and words taken out of context, asks people who say that don't say what the claim superficially seems to say to the uneducated. A bunch of people say that the quotes don't exist or that they have never heard of them. And even if they did exist, I still don't know where you see racism, but that's a separate semantic issue.

Thank you, though, for the opportunity to point out truths of Judaism to a wide audience by pointing out your errors.

 

[Limo]

Yes.

I also find it interesting that both you and the other Muslim on this thread, both quoted sources without seeing exactly how well the source proved what they were claiming.

You know that not all Christians recognise Elmesiah as Son of God. Right?
Also from Arabic language rules it doesn't imply that all Jews has taken Uzair a son of god
I noticed also that somebody was discussing the tens of the verse
Allah used the verb "said" in the past tens. In Arabic, using the past tens doesn't give any indication if the action is happening in present and future or not.

The explanation of the verse is as follows :
Some Jews said Uzair is son of gad and some Christians said that Elmesiah is son of god
The similarity is in the "said" as a past tense
There is nothing approves or negates if there are still other Jews or Christians still saying these beliefs

In many other verses Allah asked those Christians to stop saying Elmesiah is son of god
But Allah never asked Jews to stop saying Uzair is son of god

 

[Tumah]

You know that not all Christians recognise Elmesiah as Son of God. Right?

Yes. But you know that the vast majority do (or did at the time of Muhammad). Right?

Also from Arabic language rules it doesn't imply that all Jews has taken Uzair a son of god
I noticed also that somebody was discussing the tens of the verse
Allah used the verb "said" in the past tens. In Arabic, using the past tens doesn't give any indication if the action is happening in present and future or not.

Yes. وَقَالَتِ is past tense. That was noted. But it is juxtaposed with Christians of whom the vast majority still say that Jesus is the son of god. Even though it says وَقَالَتِ by Christians as well.
Besides for that, in the previous ayah, it is commanding for the present: "Fight those who do not believe in All-h or in the Last Day..." After telling you who to fight now, it then goes on to list people who fit these terms, the Jews and Christians. The former believe Ezra is the son of god and the latter believe Jesus is. The Qur'an curses them that All-h should kill them. If the Jews and Christians are no longer doing this, then why does it say قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ? It must be that they are still doing this. Then the next verse continues on with things the Jews and Christians do in the present.

The explanation of the verse is as follows :
Some Jews said Uzair is son of gad and some Christians said that Elmesiah is son of god
The similarity is in the "said" as a past tense
There is nothing approves or negates if there are still other Jews or Christians still saying these beliefs

The word "some" is not in the Qur'an in this ayah. The entire context of the ayah proves that its meant to be understood in the context of the present. And that is why about half of the Qur'an translators actually do so even though the word وَقَالَتِ is in past tense.

In many other verses Allah asked those Christians to stop saying Elmesiah is son of god
But Allah never asked Jews to stop saying Uzair is son of god

He did right here.

 

[Godobeyer]

You didn't watch the whole video.

Sorry it's just idiot to to claim.

I mean, you are already serving the Jewish people.

We know how you think.

 

[Rival]

Oh come on Godo, serving the Jewish people is great, especially if you're young and...wait...NSFW.



Seriously though, I wonder what any of this has to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Godobeyer]

yeah...I'm 15 minutes in and I don't see anything racist. The interviewer starts with invented quotes and words taken out of context, asks people who say that don't say what the claim superficially seems to say to the uneducated. A bunch of people say that the quotes don't exist or that they have never heard of them. And even if they did exist, I still don't know where you see racism, but that's a separate semantic issue.

Thank you, though, for the opportunity to point out truths of Judaism to a wide audience by pointing out your errors.

Just try after 16 minutes, and enjoy it

I can't thank you for hypocrisy

 

[Godobeyer]

Oh come on Godo, serving the Jewish people is great, especially if you're young and...wait...NSFW.



Seriously though, I wonder what any of this has to do with the topic at hand.

I don't know, if you are just so kind enough to know how is that will work