Jews, Ezra and Qur'an

[Limo]

Your third "argument" is just the conclusion of your second argument.
What does Aaron being around the Jews who made the calf have to do with Jews believing Ezra to be the son of a god?

The Talmud was already sealed before Muhammad's time. The main centers of Judaism were not in Hijazz, so who is going to add this to the Talmud without anyone realizing it?

The Talmudic story makes clear that there is no one else besides G-d. If you understood the argument that your scholar was making, you would understand that the Talmudic story directly disputes the possibility of Jews mistaking Ezra for a son of a god.

In fact, taking another look at your scholars argument, he isn't saying that the Jews of Hijazz believed Ezra to be a son of a god. He's saying that the Jews of Hijazz conflated Ezra with Enoch who was known to have become an angel. One of the types of categories of angels are called Bene Elohim. So what he's actually saying is that the Jews of Hijazz believed that Ezra was an angel, not an actual son of a god. He's reinterpreting what the Qur'an says.

Look, forget about the scholar

Why you exclude the possibility of some Jews at a certain time to call someone (Uzair) as Son of God

They have vanished, exist no more.
They didn't leave a trace or footprint.
There is no much information and historical trace for Jews were living in Arabia. Right ?
I've read a few references that are saying we don't have much information about Jews lived in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.

 

[Tumah]

Look, forget about the scholar

Why you exclude the possibility of some Jews at a certain time to call someone (Uzair) as Son of God

They have vanished, exist no more.
They didn't leave a trace or footprint.
There is no much information and historical trace for Jews were living in Arabia. Right ?
I've read a few references that are saying we don't have much information about Jews lived in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.

I see. When the scholar contradicts the point you're trying to make, we discard him.

Theoretically, I have no problem with such a possibility. Like you've pointed out, Jews have done idol-worship before, so its not impossible. The problem that I have, is that in the context of the ayah from the Qur'an, that isn't what is being said.

 

[Godobeyer]

I agree that the word is in past tense. But the ayat of the context are in present tense. This changes the understanding of this word.

This is just in your mind.
If Uzair was the last prophet or last messanger, I would doubt about that.

You misunderstood me. I didn't say that you were waiting for a prophet. I said you were waiting for the Mahdi just like we are waiting for the Messiah.

I don't see any problem.anyway,I am not one of the waiters.

No Jews claim that G-d is only for them.
No Jews claim that only Jews are G-d's children.

YOU WRONG.
Everyone knew about CHOSEN PEOPLE.

GOD, CHILDREN OF ("bene ha-Elohim," perhaps= "sons of the gods"):
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6726-god-children-of

Which verse is that?

OP.

Its hard to know what you ask sometimes. None of those prophets were sent to the Jewish people. In some cases, there were no Jewish people at the time.
There were no prophets send to non-Jews are Moses time, because at that time period G-d stopped sending prophets to the non-Jews.

but they were all breed/root. of Jews.

Here is the problem, why you think God stop send to non-Jews and promise Jews by Messiah(pbuh) ?!!

So you think God is care FOR JEWS ONLY in this issue?

I'm not sure which reply you're talking about.
Of course we believe that prophecy will return with the coming of the Messiah. But until he comes, there is no more prophecy.

In the Midrash Tanchumah Balak 1.
And also by, you know, the lack of mention of any non-Jewish prophets after him in the Tanach

So you was wrong when you said God stopped prophecy (not paussed) at Moses(pbuh).

 

[Godobeyer]

Yes, and since you have admitted not knowing what the conference is about (hint, "not the talmud") and yet you continue to post the video with the header "burn the talmud" you are parading your ignorance.

My ignorance !!!
It's your ignorance that I posted again with sequence time (not from begining).

The conference is talking about Torah and oral Torah, some Jews reject it's racist.

 

[rosends]

My ignorance !!!
It's your ignorance that I posted again with sequence time (not from begining).

The conference is talking about Torah and oral Torah, some Jews reject it's racist.

No, you posted the video (about a conference about which you said "That's would be prejudging from me,I was not heard all conference to know.") which mentions the word "book." And you assume it is about the talmud. It isn't. Instead of insisting something which is false, maybe you should admit that you don't know, because clearly, I do.

 

[Rival]

There is no much information and historical trace for Jews were living in Arabia. Right ?
I've read a few references that are saying we don't have much information about Jews lived in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.

Do you think this might be because Muhammad, you know, massacred whole tribes of them?

 

[Limo]

Do you think this might be because Muhammad, you know, massacred whole tribes of them?

Is it relevant to the current topic?

 

[Tumah]

This is just in your mind.
If Uzair was the last prophet or last Rabbi, I would doubt about that.

I have no idea what you mean here.
What I'm saying is that all the other information in the ayat are all about the present. Therefore this part of the ayah is also referring to the present- just in the immediate past.
"I was just talking to Godobeyer and he said he was a Muslim."
Is he still?

I don't see any problem.anyway,I am not one of the waiters.

Ok.

YOU WRONG.
Everyone knew about CHOSEN PEOPLE.

GOD, CHILDREN OF ("bene ha-Elohim," perhaps= "sons of the gods"):
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6726-god-children-of

You're wrong. Being "chosen" is not the same as being G-d's children. G-d calls Israel His "first born son". That means that other nations that are also His sons. First means that there are others.

OP.

You have to explain.

but they were all breed/root. of Jews.

No they were all non-Jews.

Here is the problem, why you think God stop send to non-Jews and promise Jews by Messiah(pbuh) ?!!

There's a few reasons, but I'm not sure how much you will understand.
According to Jewish sources, the non-Jews refused to follow any of G-d's commandments.
Besides for that, I don't think there's really a need for non-Jewish prophets at this point. The Noahide Laws were already spelled out, so they knew what they had to do. A nation was designated to carry the banner, so there would always be a reminder. What further purpose would a prophet fulfill?

Why are you putting pbuh by Messiah, when you don't believe in one?

So you think God is care FOR JEWS ONLY in this issue?

In which issue? The messiah? No. The Messiah will be the king of the whole world, not just the Jews. He'll return us to our land and govern over us as well. But that's not because we're special, its because we're in exile. That's something that's simply not relevant to other nations. But as for the rest of the things that he does, that relates to the whole world, not just us.

So you was wrong when you said God stopped prophecy (not paussed) at Moses(pbuh).

In what way was I wrong? The last non-Jewish prophet was Bil'am. He was from the same time as Moses.

 

[Limo]

I see. When the scholar contradicts the point you're trying to make, we discard him.

Theoretically, I have no problem with such a possibility. Like you've pointed out, Jews have done idol-worship before, so its not impossible. The problem that I have, is that in the context of the ayah from the Qur'an, that isn't what is being said.

When I put aside the scholar it's a way to move forward also I didn't read his book
Good point not excluding the possibility.
Your concern is about the context
If I understand you're saying the context implies that all Jews believed that there is Son of god?
Right?

 

[Tumah]

When I put aside the scholar it's a way to move forward also I didn't read his book
Good point not excluding the possibility.
Your concern is about the context
If I understand you're saying the context implies that all Jews believed that there is Son of god?
Right?

Yes.

I also find it interesting that both you and the other Muslim on this thread, both quoted sources without seeing exactly how well the source proved what they were claiming.

 

[RabbiO]

No, you posted the video (about a conference about which you said "That's would be prejudging from me,I was not heard all conference to know.") which mentions the word "book." And you assume it is about the talmud. It isn't. Instead of insisting something which is false, maybe you should admit that you don't know, because clearly, I do.

As I explained to Tumah on another thread, if you guys insist on using knowledge, understanding and logic you're giving yourself an unfair advantage over others who have failed to display any of the aforesaid qualities.

 

[Godobeyer]

No, you posted the video (about a conference about which you said "That's would be prejudging from me,I was not heard all conference to know.") which mentions the word "book." And you assume it is about the talmud. It isn't. Instead of insisting something which is false, maybe you should admit that you don't know, because clearly, I do.

I releaze that I made a typo error mistake that I would not insist I would not,but that's does not change anything.

Yes,it's conference talked about Torah and oral Torah ( TALMUD), and some Jews just disputed about it teaching.
EDITED typo error.

Yes, you can NOT deny the fact, that Talmud burned during history , because it's contain insults toward Jesus (pbuh) and Christians,and it has racism teaching.

 

[Rival]

I releaze that I made a typo error mistake that I would not insist I would not,but that's does not change anything.

Yes,it's conference talked about Torah and oral Torah ( TALMUD), and some Jews just disputed about it teaching.

Yes, you can deny the fact, that Talmud burned during history , because it's contain insults toward Jesus (pbuh) and Christians,and it has racism teaching.

Doesn't the Qur'an call Jews and Christians the 'worst of creatures' and damn them all to Jahannam?

 

[Godobeyer]

Doesn't the Qur'an call Jews and Christians the 'worst of creatures' and damn them all to Jahannam?

I thought I explained it to you before, that's talk about Judgemend Day.
the worst of creatures, does not mean humilation, it's mean LOSERS.is that OK ?

 

[Tumah]

Doesn't the Qur'an call Jews and Christians the 'worst of creatures' and damn them all to Jahannam?

Its not racism because its true. The Qur'an proved it in 2:65, 5:60 and 7:166.

 

[Rival]

I thought I explained it to you before, that's talk about Judgemend Day.
the worst of creatures, does not mean humilation, it's mean LOSERS.is that OK ?

It doesn't say 'they will be' it says 'they (or 'those') are'

Yes, I know it concerns judgement.

Qur'an.com:

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

Tumah and I are People of the Scripture and we disbelieve in Muhammad. So Qur'an calls us 'worst of creatures'.

 

[Godobeyer]

Its not racism because its true. The Qur'an proved it in 2:65, 5:60 and 7:166.

Sure that's for punishement for some Jews disobey Allah in Sabath.
I feel it's just bad and evil that you pretending that you don't understood it.

 

[rosends]

I releaze that I made a typo error mistake that I would not insist I would not,but that's does not change anything.

Yes,it's conference talked about Torah and oral Torah ( TALMUD), and some Jews just disputed about it teaching.
EDITED typo error.

Yes, you can NOT deny the fact, that Talmud burned during history , because it's contain insults toward Jesus (pbuh) and Christians,and it has racism teaching.

First, the conference was talking about a book. I know which book. You do not. So you keep insisting things because of the title f the video or what you think you understand. Fact is, you are wrong. They are arguing about a completely different book, published in 2010. In fact, the hate site you clipped the video from explains this. Your ignorance of Judaism and Jewish texts doesn't change reality.

And again, I never denied that the talmud was burned. I only aver that it was burnt because of what people who never studied it believed about it (much like how you are jumping to erroneous conclusions based on the video).

 

[Godobeyer]

It doesn't say 'they will be' it says 'they (or 'those') are'

Yes, I know it concerns judgement.

Qur'an.com:

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

Tumah and I are People of the Scripture and we disbelieve in Muhammad. So Qur'an calls us 'worst of creatures'.

Worst of creatures in Judgement day , in fire of hell .that's your degree in that time . NOT NOW.

 

[Godobeyer]

First, the conference was talking about a book. I know which book. You do not. So you keep insisting things because of the title f the video or what you think you understand. Fact is, you are wrong. They are arguing about a completely different book, published in 2010. In fact, the hate site you clipped the video from explains this. Your ignorance of Judaism and Jewish texts doesn't change reality.

Anyway .
So you deny that Talmud had racist teaching ?

And again, I never denied that the talmud was burned. I only aver that it was burnt because of what people who never studied it believed about it (much like how you are jumping to erroneous conclusions based on the video).

Good process that you admit that.