Jews, Ezra and Qur'an

[Rival]

Sister, the fact Christians had different interpretations of Torah than Jews in some scriptures, you can't deny it. is fact.

I'm agreeing with you!!

But the Trinity, specifically, is in the New Testament. There is zero need to go to the OT for that.

 

[Godobeyer]

I'm agreeing with you!!

But the Trinity, specifically, is in the New Testament. There is zero need to go to the OT for that.

I know there is zero need to go to OT to prove

Here the important question does Torah teach about trinity ?
IF you say No. so Jews were right in their believe. and you just creat new believe.

Yes ,Christians used Torah to proof trinity, and to proof their believe.

https://www.openbible.info/topics/the_trinity

For blaming Muslims using Bible to proof to you NOT us. in debate and discuss, that big different between how to you using Torah,as we using bible, get it now ?


Just put in your mind 99.99% of Muslims don't read Bible or consider it as sacred book to follow.(we just respect it as corrupted book from God (orginal Torah and Gospel are not exist.), contain names of God and His prophet's) edited to add.

BTW the word "trinity" is does not exist in NT,do you know that ?

 

[Rival]

BTW the word "trinity" is does not exist in NT,do you know that ?

OF COURSE I DO.

The word Bible is not in the Bible, does that mean it doesn't exist?

The Trinity is inferred.

We are not so stupid that we need literally everything writing down for us.

Why is this so hard for Muslims?

Does Qur'an say Ismael was to be sacrificed? No.

 

[firedragon]

OF COURSE I DO.

The word Bible is not in the Bible, does that mean it doesn't exist?

The Trinity is inferred.

We are not so stupid that we need literally everything writing down for us.

Why is this so hard for Muslims?

Does Qur'an say Ismael was to be sacrificed? No.

But Rival, you do realise that Ishmael and that sacrifice thing is not the core teaching of theology for a Muslim.

 

[Godobeyer]

OF COURSE I DO.

The word Bible is not in the Bible, does that mean it doesn't exist?

The Trinity is inferred.

We are not so stupid that we need literally everything writing down for us.

Why is this so hard for Muslims?

Does Qur'an say Ismael was to be sacrificed? No.

Because we believe Jesus (pbuh) never teach his followers about trinity.

And Jesus (pbuh) never claim he will die for sins.

Plus for Jews Torah never teach about trinity, it's just different interpretation to Torah than original (Jews) when Christians used Torah to proof "trinity".

Its mentionned in Hadith not Quran,It's not big deal to me who got sacrificed, Ismael (pbuh)or Israel(pbuh).

 

[Tumah]

If I say that Jews are killing Muslims of Ghaza, does this mean that all the Jews are killing, or a group of Jews?

I think the issue is clear, except you want to twist it.

If it was that alone, I'd agree. However, if you say Jews are killing Arabs of Ghaza and Muslims are celebrating Eid, the juxtaposition would indicate that either all Jews are killing (or party to the killing of) Arabs in Ghaza or only a small number of Muslims are celebrating Eid. If you wanted to express a difference in quantity, you would say "Some Jews are killing Arabs in Ghaza and all Muslims (or most) celebrate Eid."

 

[Tumah]

This is for people who are seeking the truth .....

I find an interesting book professor by Gordon Darnell Newby .... who is not Muslim and alive

It is interesting to note that the Jews in Arabia, during the advent of Islam, were involved in mystical speculation as well as anthromorphizing and worshipping an angel that functions as the substitute creator of the universe. That angel is usually identified as Metatron.

Scholar Gordon Darnell Newby notes that :

"...we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad's time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted."

G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59.

The scholar would be wrong, because if the Jews were familiar with Enoch, then they were certainly familiar with the Talmud which has exactly a passage with a story about a Jew who mistook the angel Metatron for a god.

 

[Tumah]

both.

God said Jews "SAID" not "SAYING or SAY"

To which I explained, in context "said" means just recently said.

Majority of Muslims don't consider Mahdi as prophet of God

What does that matter?

Muhammad (pbuh) don't came to Arabs/Jews ONLY.

It's came to preach to correct message to humanity, tha Jews failed in and edited.

Why were none of the other Jewish prophets commanded to give messages to humanity?

ealiest Jews

had problem with God prophets, they reject their messages,sometimes killed them.sometimes they edited/faked the message of God

That's like saying, all Muslims are terrorists.

In Judgemend day, you can ask Him,not me.

My mistake. I forgot your religion doesn't encourage critical thinking.

That's before.
I meant prophets/messangers sent to non-Jews,after Jacob called Israal,they recieve messangers/ of God . (same time), written in Torah.

I'm confused here. What exactly are you asking? Jacob was called Israel about 200 years before Moses brought us the Torah.

btw I forget to mention that maybe prophets Salih (pbuh) and Khider (pbuh),Shuaib (pbuh),Hood (pbuh) are not mentionned in Torah ?

According to your sources, Saleh prophesied right before the destruction of Thamud. That was close to the time of Muhammad. Way out of the time period I asked you about. And that's assuming he's not meant to be the same as the Selah of Tanach which would make him Adam's great-grandson, well before the time period I asked you about.
Khidr would be right at the time of Musa.
Shuaib would be before Musa being four generations from Ibrahim or linked with Jethro.
The only time frame I could find for Hud has him as a great-grandson of Nuh. That's way before Musa.

So far, no prophets between Musa and Isa.

 

[paarsurrey]

We read in surah 9 ayah 30:
"The Jews call Uzair [Ezra] the son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (in this) they imitate what the unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth."
Whilst the Christians preach Jesus is the Divine Son, I have never heard or read of any Jews, past or present, call Ezra the son of G-d. As far as I'm aware, this would be blasphemy and has never happened.
So here are my questions:
1) Is there any historical proof of this outside of the Qur'an?
2) Where do RF's Jewish members think this idea came from?
Blessings
Edit: bad translation fixed.

There is no need of any historical proof for that. There were many Jews living in Medina in Muhammad's time. They did not challenge it. Right? Please
Regards

 

[Godobeyer]

To which I explained, in context "said" means just recently said.

It's funny how you explain it.
There is no recently said. and longtime said in past tense (event happened).

What does that matter?

Mahdi is not prophet.

Why were none of the other Jewish prophets commanded to give messages to humanity?

That's your ignorance, indeed Allah sent messnagers to every nation.

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.

https://quran.com/16/36


Please,don't tell me list them, because He did not mentionned by names.

That's like saying, all Muslims are terrorists.

I don't generalize
That's not valid comparation,I am talking about events (rebellions) recorded in Torah. which is not in favor of Jews.

My mistake. I forgot your religion doesn't encourage critical thinking.

Except if I or you could speak instead of God in His matters.

I'm confused here. What exactly are you asking? Jacob was called Israel about 200 years before Moses brought us the Torah.

Yes name to me a prophet/messanger sent to non-Israel nation.

According to your sources, Saleh prophesied right before the destruction of Thamud. That was close to the time of Muhammad. Way out of the time period I asked you about. And that's assuming he's not meant to be the same as the Selah of Tanach which would make him Adam's great-grandson, well before the time period I asked you about.
Khidr would be right at the time of Musa.
Shuaib would be before Musa being four generations from Ibrahim or linked with Jethro.
The only time frame I could find for Hud has him as a great-grandson of Nuh. That's way before Musa.

Khider(pbuh) was prophet to non-Jews.

Selah (pbuh) was prophet to non-Jews.
Shuiab (pbuh) was to non-Jews

where they mentioned in Torah?

So far, no prophets between Musa and Isa.

Why you limited time from Musa to Isa (pbut) why don't extend to Muhammad(pbuh) ?why don't make it from Ibrahim(pbuh) to Jesus(pbuh) for exemple?

 

[paarsurrey]

We read in surah 9 ayah 30:
"The Jews call Uzair [Ezra] the son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (in this) they imitate what the unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth."
Whilst the Christians preach Jesus is the Divine Son, I have never heard or read of any Jews, past or present, call Ezra the son of G-d. As far as I'm aware, this would be blasphemy and has never happened.
So here are my questions:
1) Is there any historical proof of this outside of the Qur'an?
2) Where do RF's Jewish members think this idea came from?
Blessings

Edit: bad translation fixed.

History does not claim to have recorded every event of the past.
History is not 100% correct. Right? Please
Regards

 

[Tumah]

It's funny how you explain it.
There is no recently said. and longtime said in past tense (event happened).

You think its funny because you weren't taught how context works.

Mahdi is not prophet.

And?

That's your ignorance, indeed Allah sent messnagers to every nation.

And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, [saying], "Worship Allah and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was [deservedly] decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers.

https://quran.com/16/36


Please,don't tell me list them, because He did not mentionned by names.

How convenient.

I don't generalize
That's not valid comparation,I am talking about events (rebellions) recorded in Torah. which is not in favor of Jews.

You only don't generalize when it comes to Muslims, I see. Do you think every Jew sinned?

Except if I or you could speak instead of God in His matters.

Yeah, no I understand. Don't think, just listen. I got it.

Yes name to me a prophet/messanger sent to non-Israel nation.

I already named you like 8 of them or something.

Khider(pbuh) was prophet to non-Jews.

Selah (pbuh) was prophet to non-Jews.
Shuiab (pbuh) was to non-Jews

where they mentioned in Torah?
Khider was not (obviously because he wasn't real). And according to sources, Selah is mean to be Adam's great-grandson, so yes he was. And Shuiab is meant to be Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, so again, yes.

Why you limited time from Musa to Isa (pbut) why don't extend to Muhammad(pbuh) ?why don't make it from Ibrahim(pbuh) to Jesus(pbuh) for exemple?

I was just trying to show that there are no prophets to non-Jews after Moses. Christianity started inventing prophets from its time and onward and Islam follows in that path. That's why it goes from a constant line of prophets from Moses until Malachi and then completely stops for hundreds of years until the Christians come around.

According to us, the break happened because prophecy stopped. But for Christians who still have 'prophets', they need to explain why there is such a long break in between. And then Muslims need to explain the second long break between Jesus and themselves. These two breaks are what provided Baha'i with room to claim the Bab as their prophet.

 

[Godobeyer]

EDITED TO correct and add:

You think its funny because you weren't taught how context works.

I remember that you insist that "verse" is run in present tense, then I proved to you it's about past tense, so I think I taught you how it's works.

And?

it's not prophet, as you claimed before.

How convenient.

Because some Jews claim, God is ONLY for them.
they are His childern lol

You only don't generalize when it comes to Muslims, I see. Do you think every Jew sinned?

Actuatly the verse mention to all Jews sinned (not part of them).it's could be part of them were.
Ony God knows.

Yeah, no I understand. Don't think, just listen. I got it.

Good to know.

I already named you like 8 of them or something.

Do you mean this ?

Noah, Shem, Abraham, Balaam, Be'or, Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zopher,Elihu (he was from Abraham's family, but he prophecied for others).

Most of them sent to nation related/root to people Jews! these are BEFORE Moses(pbuh).

I asked if there is prophets sent after Moses(pbuh). OR Jacob (pbuh), mentionned in Torah , to other nations (non-Jews) ?

I notice you mistake to quote my reply, anyway I read it, this is my respond:

Since Jews still waiting for Messiah(pbuh) , I think it's not wise come FROM YOU to say the prophecy is stopped .

Where is in Torah said God stop sent prophet to non-Jews ?

 

[paarsurrey]

As per Exodus Chapter 4:22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘So said the Lord, “My firstborn son is Israel.” ‘

All Jews are sons of G-d.
Ezra was a Jew and a high status religious Jewish figure, and that makes him a son of G-d as per Torah. Right ?
Quran addresses the Jews living in Medina at that time and their religious concepts. They never raised a question at that time that it was a wrong allegation that they believed Ezra as son of G-d. Later they migrated from Medina and might have joined/merged with other denominations and changed or reformed their concepts.

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5967-ezra-the-scribe

Quran addresses altogether different issues in the context verses where Ezra/Jesus have been mentioned.
Right? Please
Regards

 

[Augustus]

It is interesting to note that the Jews in Arabia, during the advent of Islam, were involved in mystical speculation as well as anthromorphizing and worshipping an angel that functions as the substitute creator of the universe. That angel is usually identified as Metatron.

Scholar Gordon Darnell Newby notes that :

"...we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad's time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted."

G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59.

Seeing as you are bringing up academic scholarship, there are quite a few scholars who have tried to solve these 'inconsistencies' between the Quran and Jewish & Christian tradition with recourse to attempts to identify specific sects that held heterodox beliefs that match the Quranic narrative. The above example appears to be one of these.

These however are not very convincing as they rely on the traditional Islamic narrative that the Hijaz was a pagan backwater isolated from the rest of the region and Muhammad came into contact with these heterodox groups who had fled to the periphery to escape persecution. More recent scholarship has focused on the clear evidence that the initial audience of Muhammad's teachings must have been reasonably well versed in the Abrahamic traditions, as the Quran is a critique of, and discourse on, these. It would not have made any sense to isolated pagans, as there is too high a degree of intertextuality

I'm not to familiar with the above example, or the Jewish narrative, but there are more famous ones regarding the passage "And when God said, 'O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?", where scholars sought to link this to a sect like the Kollyridians, who perhaps worshipped Mary as a god.

The Mary example can much more clearly be linked to a documented mainstream Christian polemic in the preceding centuries against the excessive veneration of saints, that finds its analogue in the Quran which is a rhetorical text.

Also, the text you quoted is 30 years old, and a lot has changed in scholarship since then, especially a move away from the uncritical acceptance of the Sirah history towards the view that it is more explanatory narrative to make sense of the Quran, rather than actual history. While there is no evidence that it does not refere to a heterodox sect, to suggest it does is purely speculative and has no real supporting evidence outside of simple convenience.

As to what else it could be, some people like to argue that it is a 'mistake' in the Quran, which I don't agree with as it is too theologically sophisticated a text to make basic errors. I do tend to think that the answer is to be found in more orthodox beliefs, rather than more heterodox ones though. Treating this passage as rhetorical rather than purely literal would be my personal opinion on the topic.

This would be similar to the Mary example, where others are being criticised for more 'technical' violations of the unity of God, rather than outright deification of others.

 

[Augustus]

Khider

From Surat al-Kahf?

 

[Godobeyer]

From Surat al-Kahf?

Yes,of course

 

[Augustus]

btw I forget to mention that maybe prophets Salih (pbuh) and Khider (pbuh),Shuaib (pbuh),Hood (pbuh) are not mentionned in Torah ?

al-Khidr has roots in Jewish texts. All 3 of the stories in al-Kahf (sleepers in the cave, Moses and al-Khidr and Dhul Qarnayan) are references to stories found in Muhammad's environment. Islamic exegetes even acknowledge this as they say the verse was revealed in response to a challenge from some 'people of the book' (often given as Jews, but 2 of the stories are really Christian) who wanted to test Muhammad.

This servant of God is called al-K̲h̲aḍir by the majority of the commentators. Others, however, identify him with Mūsā’s servant (see below). Both interpretations have their roots in Oriental legends. The Ḳurʾānic story may be traced back to three main sources: the Gilgames̲h̲ epic, the Alexander romance and the Jewish legend of Elijah and Rabbi Joshua ben Levi. The two first are, of course, again closely related to one another; at the same time it should be noted that the fish episode is lacking in the epic and is only found in the romance...

The Jewish legend (printed in Jellinek, Bet ha-Midrasch , v, 133-5) tells how Rabbi Joshua ben Levi goes on a journey with Elijah under conditions laid down by Elijah, like those above of the servant of God in the Ḳurʾān. Like the latter, Elijah does a number of apparently outrageous things, which affects Joshua as it did Mūsā. Zunz,Gesammelte Vorträge , x, 130 first pointed out the similarity of this story to the Ḳurʾānic legend. A comparison of the main features of these three sources with Sūra XVIII, 59 ff. suggests the following conclusions, questions and hypotheses...

The commentators, ḥadīt̲h̲ , and historians have collected a mass of statements around the Ḳurʾānic story, additions which, like the story itself, came for the most part from the three sources already mentioned.

The first question discussed is whether the principal character is Mūsā b. ʿImrān or Mūsā b. Mis̲h̲ā (= Manasseh) b. Yūsuf b. Yaʿḳūb, i.e. a descendant of the patriarch Jacob (al-Rāzī, Mafātīḥ al-g̲h̲ayb , iv, 333; al-Zamak̲h̲s̲h̲arī. Kas̲h̲s̲h̲āf , on v. 59). Commentators are almost unanimous in favour of the former alternative and base their opinion on the following legend which is transmitted in several forms. When Mūsā, the famous prophet, was one day preaching to the children of Israel, he was asked if there was any man wiser than he. When he replied in the negative, Allāh revealed to him that his pious servant, al-K̲h̲aḍir, was wiser than he. He thereupon decided to visit this wise man. The story comes from Jewish legend; it is found in a considerable number of Arabic sources (al-Buk̲h̲ārī, ʿIlm , bāb 16, 19, 44; Anbiyāʾ ,bāb 27; Tafsīr , Sūra XVIII, bāb 2-4; Muslim, Faḍāʾil , tr. 170-4; al-Tirmid̲h̲ī, Tafsīr, Sūra XVIII, bāb 1; al-Ṭabari, i, 417; Tafsīr, xv, 165 f; Fak̲h̲r al-Dīn al-Rāzi, op. cit., iv, 333).(EI2)

 

[Godobeyer]

al-Khidr has roots in Jewish texts. All 3 of the stories in al-Kahf (sleepers in the cave, Moses and al-Khidr and Dhul Qarnayan) are references to stories found in Muhammad's environment. Islamic exegetes even acknowledge this as they say the verse was revealed in response to a challenge from some 'people of the book' (often given as Jews, but 2 of the stories are really Christian) who wanted to test Muhammad.

This servant of God is called al-K̲h̲aḍir by the majority of the commentators. Others, however, identify him with Mūsā’s servant (see below). Both interpretations have their roots in Oriental legends. The Ḳurʾānic story may be traced back to three main sources: the Gilgames̲h̲ epic, the Alexander romance and the Jewish legend of Elijah and Rabbi Joshua ben Levi. The two first are, of course, again closely related to one another; at the same time it should be noted that the fish episode is lacking in the epic and is only found in the romance...

The Jewish legend (printed in Jellinek, Bet ha-Midrasch , v, 133-5) tells how Rabbi Joshua ben Levi goes on a journey with Elijah under conditions laid down by Elijah, like those above of the servant of God in the Ḳurʾān. Like the latter, Elijah does a number of apparently outrageous things, which affects Joshua as it did Mūsā. Zunz,Gesammelte Vorträge , x, 130 first pointed out the similarity of this story to the Ḳurʾānic legend. A comparison of the main features of these three sources with Sūra XVIII, 59 ff. suggests the following conclusions, questions and hypotheses...

The commentators, ḥadīt̲h̲ , and historians have collected a mass of statements around the Ḳurʾānic story, additions which, like the story itself, came for the most part from the three sources already mentioned.

The first question discussed is whether the principal character is Mūsā b. ʿImrān or Mūsā b. Mis̲h̲ā (= Manasseh) b. Yūsuf b. Yaʿḳūb, i.e. a descendant of the patriarch Jacob (al-Rāzī, Mafātīḥ al-g̲h̲ayb , iv, 333; al-Zamak̲h̲s̲h̲arī. Kas̲h̲s̲h̲āf , on v. 59). Commentators are almost unanimous in favour of the former alternative and base their opinion on the following legend which is transmitted in several forms. When Mūsā, the famous prophet, was one day preaching to the children of Israel, he was asked if there was any man wiser than he. When he replied in the negative, Allāh revealed to him that his pious servant, al-K̲h̲aḍir, was wiser than he. He thereupon decided to visit this wise man. The story comes from Jewish legend; it is found in a considerable number of Arabic sources (al-Buk̲h̲ārī, ʿIlm , bāb 16, 19, 44; Anbiyāʾ ,bāb 27; Tafsīr , Sūra XVIII, bāb 2-4; Muslim, Faḍāʾil , tr. 170-4; al-Tirmid̲h̲ī, Tafsīr, Sūra XVIII, bāb 1; al-Ṭabari, i, 417; Tafsīr, xv, 165 f; Fak̲h̲r al-Dīn al-Rāzi, op. cit., iv, 333).(EI2)

Sorry I find difficult to match,Al-khider link to who in Torah ?

Yes, Surat Al-kahf (the cave) had many stories and lesson in.

 

[Limo]

The scholar would be wrong, because if the Jews were familiar with Enoch, then they were certainly familiar with the Talmud which has exactly a passage with a story about a Jew who mistook the angel Metatron for a god.

Don't you think that professor Gordon Darnell Newby knows this ?
No Problem

If there is something in Talmoud about "a Jew" who has taken Metatron as a god, it means there were Jews who has taken Metatron, Calf,,, Uzair as God or Son God
It means not all Jews were perfect and also these groups don't exist anymore like Jews who has taken Uzair as a prophet