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Jews, Ezra and Qur'an

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
I agree with you in some of the things bro. But would you be kind enough to give me an ear.

When we accuse the OT to be corrupted, what do we mean? Was it the Jews who corrupted it? In that case, were they not Muslims?? The Quran cites Abraham as calling his followers Muslim right!! And Islam is time immemorial right? Quran cites our deen, religion or system as miillat ibrahim.

Now were they Muslims who corrupted the bible?

See, if we are on a discussion like 'is the bible corrupted' then we can debate this issue with facts. But even then, we who call ourselves Muslims who believe in a Quran that says Islam is time immemorial must also realise that we are actually pointing at our own ancestors, Muslims. They are the culprits or irresponsible people who allowed the scripture to be corrupted.

Do you understand? I mean as a Muslim.

You welcome, and thanks for asking

We Muslims believe OT and Gospel are corrupted by man hand,after prophets gone. that's why it's contain some verse consider God as ignorants or weak, some verses insult prophets behave. (major sin), or being partner to God ...etc

In Islam view :
All messangers were Muslims , Islam means means "submission" to God.

Some scholars said who recieve the message of Islam and understand it,then reject it,he/she may will be in big risk in Judgement Day.

For people whom never heard about Islam or misleaded by media they may will not punished.

We do believe that God is all justice and all punishement and all mercy. everyone will get what he/she deserve.

God knows best :)
 
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Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
No. No Christian need use the OT to prove the Trinity. The Trinity is proven using the New Testament. Is that clear?

Of course we need the Torah to prove Jesus' Messiahship. The whole concept of a Messiah is from the Old Testament. Why does this confuse you?! The prophecies are in the Old Testament, they are fulfilled in the New Testament. One therefore needs the Old Testament (TORAH) to prove the New Testament's claims. The New Testament makes no sense on its own. It's not supposed to!

By Allah!
I do remember that some Christians used Torah to prove trinity to Jews.



There are stories in Qur'an that make no sense without the Torah. Seriously. Qur'an does not explain Moses, what he did, what rules he laid down, how he died etc. Qur'an just rips off stories from the Torah, muddles them up, and calls itself scripture. Can Qur'an explain why not to eat porc? No.

We never used Torah to explain Quran.

Yes, it's explain why not to eat porc in Quran.

Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me [anything] forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure - or it be [that slaughtered in] disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Say, "I do not find within that which was revealed to me [anything] forbidden to one who would eat it unless it be a dead animal or blood spilled out or the flesh of swine - for indeed, it is impure - or it be [that slaughtered in] disobedience, dedicated to other than Allah . But whoever is forced [by necessity], neither desiring [it] nor transgressing [its limit], then indeed, your Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

But why just porc? Torah bans many more animals. Just banning pig seems very random. Torah is very precise.

Well, I'm not really interested in an answer anyway. I think we're done? :p
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
But why just porc? Torah bans many more animals. Just banning pig seems very random. Torah is very precise.

Well, I'm not really interested in an answer anyway. I think we're done? :p
Just add to you new information :)

Pork or pig are same animal for Muslims (just had different name in English)
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Thats not funny
So you ignore your history !
Burning of the Talmud
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/TalmudBurning.html
I'll try to be clearer.
A. The talmud is not a translation of scripture.
B. It is only racist when people read snippets on hate sites and don't learn it
C. Its having been burned by anti-semites (note the URL) is not proof that it had anything racist in it. No one claims it wasn't burned. But your statement was that it was burned when the scriptures were tr4anslated and racist content was revealed. That is wrong.

Would you like to try again, or just admit you haven't a clue?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
So then you would never claim that it, for example, mentions Muhammed, right? Because it is corrupt so you can't trust what is in it.
"The bits that agree with Qur'an aren't corrupted, plus the bits we can force into our own meaning are O.K. too. The rest is corrupt."

Wait for it...
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
So then you would never claim that it, for example, mentions Muhammed, right? Because it is corrupt so you can't trust what is in it.

it's had no relation about trust.
It's just an interesting point (video) to me, I discover few years ago.
 
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Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
I'll try to be clearer.
A. The talmud is not a translation of scripture.
B. It is only racist when people read snippets on hate sites and don't learn it
C. Its having been burned by anti-semites (note the URL) is not proof that it had anything racist in it. No one claims it wasn't burned. But your statement was that it was burned when the scriptures were tr4anslated and racist content was revealed. That is wrong.

Would you like to try again, or just admit you haven't a clue?
A-I know Talmud is about speechs, but actually recorded in books.

B- I do believe racist Talmud verse is exist, this is the proof.

C- I do know that it's burned many times during the history , I do believe racism teaching of it was one of reasons (accusation).

http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-burning-of-the-talmud/
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
"The bits that agree with Qur'an aren't corrupted, plus the bits we can force into our own meaning are O.K. too. The rest is corrupt."

Wait for it...

Wait for what ?!!
You are wrong.
WE DON'T USE BIBLE to know the meaning of QURAN, is that clear ?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
I wasn't referring to that in the post you quoted.
Any way

Never happened that Muslims use Torah explain Quran (as you claim before). debating is other issue,are you may confused with ?

in other way,YOU deny Christians used Torah to explain/interpret about some Christian doctrine,which oppose to Jewish doctrine sometimes,that's lie.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
And if Jews and Christians agreed on everything, we'd just be 'Jews' or 'Christians', this is why we are separate. This isn't trigonometry.
 

Limo

Active Member
This is for people who are seeking the truth .....

I find an interesting book professor by Gordon Darnell Newby .... who is not Muslim and alive :)

It is interesting to note that the Jews in Arabia, during the advent of Islam, were involved in mystical speculation as well as anthromorphizing and worshipping an angel that functions as the substitute creator of the universe. That angel is usually identified as Metatron.

Scholar Gordon Darnell Newby notes that :

"...we can deduce that the inhabitants of Hijaz during Muhammad's time knew portions, at least, of 3 Enoch in association with the Jews. The angels over which Metatron becomes chief are identified in the Enoch traditions as the sons of God, the Bene Elohim, the Watchers, the fallen ones as the causer of the flood. In 1 Enoch, and 4 Ezra, the term Son of God can be applied to the Messiah, but most often it is applied to the righteous men, of whom Jewish tradition holds there to be no more righteous than the ones God elected to translate to heaven alive. It is easy, then, to imagine that among the Jews of the Hijaz who were apparently involved in mystical speculations associated with the merkabah, Ezra, because of the traditions of his translation, because of his piety, and particularly because he was equated with Enoch as the Scribe of God, could be termed one of the Bene Elohim. And, of course, he would fit the description of religious leader (one of the ahbar of the Qur'an 9:31) whom the Jews had exalted."

G. D. Newby, A History Of The Jews Of Arabia, 1988, University Of South Carolina Press, p. 59.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
And if Jews and Christians agreed on everything, we'd just be 'Jews' or 'Christians', this is why we are separate. This isn't trigonometry.
This the point that I talked about !!

You (Christians) disagree with Jews, in something is belong to them (jews) in first place, then Christian made other interpretations different then Jewish (original).

The truth hurt,right ?
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
This the point that I talked about !!

You (Christians) disagree with Jews, in something is belong to them (jews) in first place, then Christian made other interpretations different then Jewish (original).

The truth hurt,right ?
Um, no. I've been saying this all along. You were talking specifically about the Trinity, which we do not find in the OT.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
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