Joseph Smith Fraud

[tomato1236]

Perhaps. I'd say any good they do is balanced out by their human rights violations.

heh

 

[tomato1236]

They certainly do preach hate.

False.

 

[tomato1236]

If you do not see a good reason to debate this topic then I suggest that you do not debate this topic and let those who want to debate this topic debate it.

Mormonism affects the way they treat gays. If a society or a group of people believe in a lie, there are bound to be negative consequences for society. Falsehood rarely leads to betterment and the betterment it sometimes brings is usually temporary.

I'm surprised everybody is giving Dan such a hard time here. I'm thinking he made a pretty good point about the facsimile. I'm also thinking he'll get little relavent response Just because nobody really knows much about it but the lds.

 

[tomato1236]

But it's not a different culture. The book was translated for our culture.

No, the BoM is not about Mayans or Incas. LDS does not even assert this. Neither Mayans nor Incas (1) are descended from Middle-Eastern immigrants (2) resemble the BoM people. LDS "scholars" do not dispute this.

Nowhere in America do we find millions of descendants of Middle Eastern immigrants who smelt metal, grow wheat, herd cattle, ride horses, make wine, etc. etc.

The main LDS defense is usually this word transposition idea, that pig means tapir, cow means deer, and so forth. Since the religion is based on divinely inspired translation, this fails.

The other main defense is that just because we haven't found it yet, doesn't mean we won't. Obviously, when you're talking about, according to the BoM, hundreds of thousands of people, it's reasonable to conclude we would have dug up a single artifact by now.

LDS does sometimes change its beliefs to match the data. For example, instead of saying that Middle Eastern Immigrants are "the principal ancestors" of American Indians, I believe the BoM intro (not looking it up, from memory) now says they are "among the ancestors." Basically, if you had a single ancestor, that would satisfy that. When you combine that with the idea that even if we haven't found it yet, we may someday find it, that covers their bases.

At this point, I don't think the actual archeological finds are in dispute. LDS has even sent archeologists to various sites who have come back empty handed and published articles saying so. Their position is that if they keep looking, eventually they'll find something.

Again, it's the totality. When you add up the fact that the book has yet to be supported by any evidence, and that Smith was twice caught proffering bogus translations, etc., it all adds up to one thing: fraud.

And after all, fraud is common. Angels and golden plates are not. More likely horses than zebras.

You keep saying what the experts have said, or that achaeologists have said they came up empty handed. Please post a reading list.

 

[Autodidact]

You keep saying what the experts have said, or that achaeologists have said they came up empty handed. Please post a reading list.

It would be thousands of volumes long. Pick a single archeological subject, such as New World domesticated fauna, or genetic heritage of American Indians, or Metallurgy, and I'll give you some titles.

Do you take issue with any claim that I made? For example, do you assert that archeologists have ever found evidence of metallurgy in the New World, or pre-Columbian horses, or chariots, or cattle, or...? Do you assert that American Indians originated in the Middle East? What is your position? It's easier to provide support when we have narrowed our disagreement to a manageable number of points.

 

[tomato1236]

It would be thousands of volumes long. Pick a single archeological subject, such as New World domesticated fauna, or genetic heritage of American Indians, or Metallurgy, and I'll give you some titles.

Do you take issue with any claim that I made? For example, do you assert that archeologists have ever found evidence of metallurgy in the New World, or pre-Columbian horses, or chariots, or cattle, or...? Do you assert that American Indians originated in the Middle East? What is your position? It's easier to provide support when we have narrowed our disagreement to a manageable number of points.

Heh well I'm not making assertions because I wouldn't know what I'm talking about. But I'm willing to read all your expert references if you'll post some. Maybe instead of me picking a subject, you can just, from here on out, support your points with references so we don't all assume you're making stuff up.

 

[Autodidact]

Heh well I'm not making assertions because I wouldn't know what I'm talking about. But I'm willing to read all your expert references if you'll post some. Maybe instead of me picking a subject, you can just, from here on out, support your points with references so we don't all assume you're making stuff up.

I tried to make statements that the LDS leadership and Mormons agree with. If you take issue with any point I make, ever, I am happy to provide sources. If you take issue with any point I made, or even if you just want a source for a specific point, just ask.

To source everything I said, none of which is, I believe, controversial, would equate to many archeology textbooks. Was there any point that bothered you?

 

[Autodidact]

Here, I'll do one just to show you, o.k.?

No, the BoM is not about Mayans

The BoM people used iron and steel.

No evidence has been found in North, Central, or South America of iron being hardened anciently to make “steel”.

[wiki]
BoM people rode horses and used chariots.

It is widely accepted that horses were extinct in the Western Hemisphere over 10,000 years ago and did not reappear there until the Spaniards brought them from Europe.[49]

wiki

For years the Maya traversed their territories, built huge cities, and developed trade routes- all without animal assistance or the use of the wheel.

from here.

The BoM describes an elaborate system for trading precious metals.

Their trade routes connected North America with South America and allowed Maya merchants to trade textiles, ceramics, feathers, jades, bells, stones and objects that were prized like money.

here. In short, everything except weights of precious metal.

One could go on all day describing the Mayans and noting that their civilization bears almost no resemblance to BoM people: food, crops, diet, materials, buildings, language, DNA--nothing.

That is why the Mormon archeologists, such as Thomas Ferguson and Dee Green, who traveled to Central American eager to discover the lands described in the BoM, came back decades later utterly disappointed and disillusioned.

"Archaeologists and other scholars have long probed the hemisphere's past and the society does not know of anything found so far that has substantiated the Book of Mormon."from here.

Do you disagree? If not, I'd rather not invest too much more time on it.
BoM people raise cattle. There no cattle in America before the Europeans.

There is no evidence that Old World cattle (members of the genus Bos) inhabited the New World prior to European contact in the 16th century AD.

wiki

"The study of Maya agricultural life is based on existing methods, archaeological finds, botanical and geographical observations, and sixteenth-century sources, many of which are quite detailed, but tell of customs in a less populous time. Some of the customs can be projected to the Classic period, but allowances must be made for a great deals of change. Although many observations and studies have been made, the overall pictures is still unclear. The Maize was prepared by boiling or soaking it in lime water and then draining it in a gourd colander. While it was still wet, it was ground on a metate--as small stone table--with a mano, a cylindrical handstone. The resulting paste was most commonly mixed with water to make pozole, a thin gruel, or formed into cakes, the still familiar tortillas, which were roasted on a flat pottery griddle and eaten with beans or chili. On special occasions chocolate was mixed with ground maize and spiced with chili. Beans and squash were often planted in the same hole with the maize or the rows between. There were numerous varieties of squash and pumpkin, and two varieties of beans, a red one and a black one. A traveler in the area today is aware of the ubiquitous frijole. Chili peppers, tomatoes, yucca, and sweet potatoes were also sometimes planted in the same field. Many of the foods of the Maya, both ancient and modern, are strange to us, such as manioc, chaya, and jicama; but other fruits and vegetables are found in today's supermarkets--avocados, sweet potatoes, guavas, and tomatoes--or are the sources of such familiar foods and seasonings as vanilla beans, chili peppers...chocolate.

---The Maya World, Elizabeth P. Benson, revised edition [Thomas Y. Crowell:New York] 1977 (p. 61-4)

Does that sound anything like BoM people, who eat barley, wheat, beef and pork and drink wine?

 

[AxisMundi]

False.

True.

Examples?

How long ago was it that blacks could serve as Mormon clergy?

How many millions did the LDS throw behind Prop 8?

 

[AxisMundi]

Here, I'll do one just to show you, o.k.? ......

And let us not forget clear frauds and forgeries, such as the "ioun Stones" touted by Mormons as authentic for many years, or the Ica Stones as well.

 

[tomato1236]

And let us not forget clear frauds and forgeries, such as the "ioun Stones" touted by Mormons as authentic for many years, or the Ica Stones as well.

I had to google these since I've never heard of them. The Ica stones are interesting. That guy must have made a buttload of cash! When I googled "Ioun stones" all I got was tons of Dungeons and Dragons sites. Apparently it's a magical item in that game.

 

[tomato1236]

Auto--

Thanks for the links. Stanford is a pretty credible source. It's weird that the Mayans were smart enough to invent the 0 concept 1000 years before the arabs, and build huge pyramids, and farm for a living, but not smart enough to make a wheel. I thought that was caveman stuff. I mean, did they live without fire, too? Poor Mayans.

 

[tomato1236]

True.

Examples?

How long ago was it that blacks could serve as Mormon clergy?

How many millions did the LDS throw behind Prop 8?

It was about 30 years ago blacks were allowed to hold the priesthood.

I don't know how many millions were behind it--some LDS support gay marriage--but there are something like 5 million members of the church in the US and I would imagine foreign members wouldn't be involved, about 3 million members probably stay out of politics and don't give a dern, so I would estimate that about 2 million members were rallied against prop 8. Of course, they're spread all across the country, so the actual voting population in California was probably more like hundreds of thousands at most. I think the population of CA is something like 37 million.

Just because a person votes against gay marriage, doesn't mean they hate gay people. I'm sure there are mormons who are hateful, but it's not because the church taught them to be. The church's teachings are Christ's teachings, which were love. My brother is gay. Though I don't support changing the definition of marriage, I love my brother. I don't claim to understand how homosexuality fits into things, or why some people are gay and others aren't. It actually bugs me when anti-gay people say that it's a choice. Like they know. I don't antagonize gay folks. I don't hate gay folks. I'm a mormon.

 

[Autodidact]

It was about 30 years ago blacks were allowed to hold the priesthood.

I don't know how many millions were behind it--some LDS support gay marriage--but there are something like 5 million members of the church in the US and I would imagine foreign members wouldn't be involved, about 3 million members probably stay out of politics and don't give a dern, so I would estimate that about 2 million members were rallied against prop 8. Of course, they're spread all across the country, so the actual voting population in California was probably more like hundreds of thousands at most. I think the population of CA is something like 37 million.

Just because a person votes against gay marriage, doesn't mean they hate gay people. I'm sure there are mormons who are hateful, but it's not because the church taught them to be. The church's teachings are Christ's teachings, which were love. My brother is gay. Though I don't support changing the definition of marriage, I love my brother. I don't claim to understand how homosexuality fits into things, or why some people are gay and others aren't. It actually bugs me when anti-gay people say that it's a choice. Like they know. I don't antagonize gay folks. I don't hate gay folks. I'm a mormon.

Just that little issue of denying him one of the most basic human rights...other than that, no problem.

 

[tomato1236]

Just that little issue of denying him one of the most basic human rights...other than that, no problem.

I don't see it that way.

 

[Autodidact]

I don't see it that way.

Well it's not your rights that are being denied, is it?

 

[tomato1236]

Well it's not your rights that are being denied, is it?

My rights are not being denied, no.

 

[sniper762]

marriage is not a right, its a priveledge. its like a grant or a gift. a gift is not dictaded by the receiver, but rather the giver. if it is a priveledge of a state, then it requires that state's conditions. if you dont abide by tthem, then you dont get the priveledge.

back in the days of old, to be concidered married, the husband to be would ask for the hand of the bride to be from their father (maybe give him a goat or a cow) and if he gave his blessiing then it became so.

maybe you should go that route if thats all your after.

if its more you desire, like legal state benefits granted by marriage, then you'll just have to play by their rules.

 

[AxisMundi]

I had to google these since I've never heard of them. The Ica stones are interesting. That guy must have made a buttload of cash! When I googled "Ioun stones" all I got was tons of Dungeons and Dragons sites. Apparently it's a magical item in that game.

There are certain self-proscribed "archeaologists" that do the greatest of disservice to your religion by attempting to prove it through artifacts and rather loose interpritations of yours criptrues, such as your scriptural "swords" that some have attempted to claim were used by the ancient Inca.

The Ioun Stones are a perfect example. Supposedly found in North America, they supposedly showed carvings of your Christ figure, scenes from your scripture, and "hebrew" writting. It was claimed they were carved millenia ago. When they were finally released for examination by experts, the fakes were exposed for what they could only be.

They are part of the "Michigan Relics" frauds.

 

[waitasec]

My rights are not being denied, no.

ah, what about his?