Smoke
Done here.
It's hard to say. The origins of Zoroastrianism aren't as clear as we might like, and nobody really knows when Zoroaster lived.
Could go either way.
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Judaism originated in Greece
- Thread starter herushura
- Start date
Buttercup
Veteran Member
Mary Boyce, considered an authority on Zoroastrianism, claims this religion as the oldest monotheistic religion on the planet. She also says Zoroastrianism influenced Judaism and later Christianity.
Smoke
Done here.
That's certainly possible.
I don't think there's any doubt about that.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I wouldn't argue that Zoroastrianism didn't influence Judaism and Christianity. However, that influence didn't happen until later on. From what I've seen, it wasn't until the Persians conquered the Jewish homeland that the Jews were really exposed to the ideas of Zoroastrianism. It was after this time that ideas of Zoroastrianism can be seen to start appearing in Jewish thought.
As for whether or not they are the oldest monotheistic religion, it is possible. But a note must be added. Judaism did not start off as a monotheistic religion, and that does factor into whether or not it is the first monotheistic religion. Judaism didn't become monotheistic until I believe after 800 B.C.E., and the first attempt was unsuccessful. However, Judaism did exist before that point as a polytheistic religion, which, from the evidence, probably predates Zoroastrianism.
Either way, I think it is misleading to claim that Zoroastrianism (and the Celtic religion for that fact) to precede Judaism when it is not clear that they do so.
Buttercup
Veteran Member
Fallingblood: The point I was addressing was regarding post #59 where you state that Zoroastrianism started after Judaism. From the material I've read on the subject, that point seems to not be the case.
I highly recommend ANY of the books written by Mary Boyce. I've mentioned her several times before on the forum because she is considered a premiere authority on the subject of Zoroastrianism and has written extensively about this ancient religion. She specifically dates Zoroastrianism as being founded WELL before Judaism.
I know this probably sounds like a fallacious appeal to authority but, hey, it's all I've got and you aren't giving me much evidence to corroborate your claim.
http://www.amazon.com/Zoroastrians-...books&qid=1275715753&sr=8-1#reader_0415239036
I highly recommend ANY of the books written by Mary Boyce. I've mentioned her several times before on the forum because she is considered a premiere authority on the subject of Zoroastrianism and has written extensively about this ancient religion. She specifically dates Zoroastrianism as being founded WELL before Judaism.
I know this probably sounds like a fallacious appeal to authority but, hey, it's all I've got and you aren't giving me much evidence to corroborate your claim.
http://www.amazon.com/Zoroastrians-...books&qid=1275715753&sr=8-1#reader_0415239036
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I accept the possibility that Zoroastrianism may have originated before Judaism. However, as of now, the evidence is not fully there. From what I've seen, Judaism did exist before Zoroastrianism. Nearly every study that I've read supports that idea.Fallingblood: The point I was addressing was regarding post #59 where you state that Zoroastrianism started after Judaism. From the material I've read on the subject, that point seems to not be the case.
I highly recommend ANY of the books written by Mary Boyce. I've mentioned her several times before on the forum because she is considered a premiere authority on the subject of Zoroastrianism and has written extensively about this ancient religion. She specifically dates Zoroastrianism as being founded WELL before Judaism.
I know this probably sounds like a fallacious appeal to authority but, hey, it's all I've got and you aren't giving me much evidence to corroborate your claim.
http://www.amazon.com/Zoroastrians-...books&qid=1275715753&sr=8-1#reader_0415239036
Mary Boyce does have an interesting argument, and there is a lot of validity to it. However, I just don't see it being correct in this regards. I would accept that Zoroastrianism was, most likely, the first monotheistic religion. However, from the evidence I've seen, Judaism did in fact exist before Zoroastrianism. There may be debate in this case, but as of now, I would personally have to say that Judaism came first as I would say the evidence supports.
In any case, as there is debate, and the evidence does not fully support the idea that Zoroastrianism did come first, I just think it is misleading to state that it did, especially when not all of the evidence points that way. Even looking at some of the earliest accepted dates (by credible scholars, which I would consider Boyce to be one), Judaism still precedes it.
Abu Rashid
Active Member
Isn't Zoroastrianism 'bitheistic'? It holds a belief in a kind of dualism as far as I was aware.
Buttercup
Veteran Member
From what I know of the religion, there is only one god to be worshiped, Ahura Mazda. There is supposedly an Angra Mainyu who is the god of darkness or eternal destroyer of good. Basically, an evil spirit. I've never gotten the impression he is on par in power and strength as Ahura Mazda and certainly isn't considered worthy of worship.
Ben Dhyan
Veteran Member
Thank you herushura for posting this, very interesting and revealing of the common origins of the various religions that share these themes.
However IMHO the common themes predate both Judaism and Greece. For example the Greek Hermes was taken from the Egyptian Thoth, and the Hebrew Noah was taken from the Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian tradition.
If you have reference links for the the sources of the information you have posted, it would be appreciated if you could provide them as it really is interesting material for those interested in the common origin of the allegorical stories of the world's religions.
Breathe
Hostis humani generis
Hmmm, I'm not sure, especially regarding Celtic religions. Religions are passed down orally, we know, so they could be hugely old. Not to mention it's difficult to define when we start counting Judaism from, since at one point Judaism was henotheistic. Do we count that, or not?
It could be either Shangdi worship or Chinese folk religion: Chinese folk religion is a syncretic blend of animistic beliefs, ancestor worship, etc. In its more modern form it includes Buddhist, Confucian, and Taoist influences - again, hard to measure as it goes along a continuum of beliefs from ancient to modern.
Ecclectic Seeker
New Member
Okay, but I can do this too! For example
Let's examine the Taoist Faith and the ancient Mesoamerican Loochi Faith. In Taoism, it is believed that first and foremost there is the Tao, a universal presence that subtly influences everything. The Loochi believed in a overall primary divinity called Uizye Tao, or the Almighty Breath. Since the names are phonetically similar, and the concepts are vaguely similar, we, by your logic, must conclude that the Tao is Uizye Tao. Also, both Religious Taoism and the Loochi Religion also worship/worshiped a pantheon of other deities, and, in both cases, those deities were lesser in comparison to the Tao/Uizye Tao.
Thus, using your logic, Taoism must have been simply a mutation of the Loochi Religion. Although, the Loochi people themselves came into existance well after Taoism's founding, and the two cultures never had any contact between one another.
My point here is that you can point out the similarities in almost any religion, but merely because they have similar concepts and similar sounding names, this does not mean that they are the same thing. Perhaps, it merely shows a similar divine truth behind all faiths. Or maybe it is simply the human compulsion to link everything together that is the cause of linking like this. Judaism is almost certainly not the same thing as the Greek faith, but the two did likely influence each other in subtle ways. Also, with your theory of Pandora=Eve, the first recorded instance of the book of Genesis comes from the time that the Hebrews were slaves in Babylon, and thus, it is not likely that it is derived from the story of Pandora.
Let's examine the Taoist Faith and the ancient Mesoamerican Loochi Faith. In Taoism, it is believed that first and foremost there is the Tao, a universal presence that subtly influences everything. The Loochi believed in a overall primary divinity called Uizye Tao, or the Almighty Breath. Since the names are phonetically similar, and the concepts are vaguely similar, we, by your logic, must conclude that the Tao is Uizye Tao. Also, both Religious Taoism and the Loochi Religion also worship/worshiped a pantheon of other deities, and, in both cases, those deities were lesser in comparison to the Tao/Uizye Tao.
Thus, using your logic, Taoism must have been simply a mutation of the Loochi Religion. Although, the Loochi people themselves came into existance well after Taoism's founding, and the two cultures never had any contact between one another.
My point here is that you can point out the similarities in almost any religion, but merely because they have similar concepts and similar sounding names, this does not mean that they are the same thing. Perhaps, it merely shows a similar divine truth behind all faiths. Or maybe it is simply the human compulsion to link everything together that is the cause of linking like this. Judaism is almost certainly not the same thing as the Greek faith, but the two did likely influence each other in subtle ways. Also, with your theory of Pandora=Eve, the first recorded instance of the book of Genesis comes from the time that the Hebrews were slaves in Babylon, and thus, it is not likely that it is derived from the story of Pandora.
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
As far as Judaism, and someone said Judaism was Polytheistic prior til about 800 BC. I think more like Monoaltrous like the Egyptian religion is. Meaning they viewed many deities as part of one deity. The Tanak doesn't tell us much about the transition from this earlier Judaism to the more current one, it simply tells us: the elders of the nation purged the names of the Ba'als from the lips of the people. There was a point when God in Judaism ceased to be viewed as a collective and as a whole oneness. The Bible also speaks in a few other places of this so-called purification from the older form of worship, like when it says Hezekiah broke the bronze serpent attributed to Moses, because people were burning incense to it and named it Nahushtan.
Smoke
Done here.
At least. Despite attempts to impose monotheism by force, it seems that polytheism remained popular until the Exile.
I'm not seeing that.
herushura
Active Member
Did not the Israelites believe King Cyrus was Christ
Isaiah 45:1
THUS saith the Lord to my anointed Cyrus
-----------------------------(Cyrus Christ)
Many Christians use quotes from Isaiah has proof of Jesus Christ, but those quotes are actually referring to "Cyrus, the Christ"
"The one saying of Cyrus, He is my shepherd and all that I delight in he wi1l completely carry out.' Even in (my) saying of Jerusalem, 'She will be rebuilt and the temple.....foundation laid" (Isaiah 44.28).
Here, Cyrus is called the Shepherd.
Also Compare ya-Wa / Ahu-Ra
Cyrus was Zoroastrian? yet, the yhwh/Jews loved him
Did the Israelites at that time convert to the religion of Cyrus?
Israel has a dominion of Persia, would by influenced by persian religion
The Greek kingdom above would also influence Israelite religion
Isaiah 45:1
THUS saith the Lord to my anointed Cyrus
-----------------------------(Cyrus Christ)
Many Christians use quotes from Isaiah has proof of Jesus Christ, but those quotes are actually referring to "Cyrus, the Christ"
"The one saying of Cyrus, He is my shepherd and all that I delight in he wi1l completely carry out.' Even in (my) saying of Jerusalem, 'She will be rebuilt and the temple.....foundation laid" (Isaiah 44.28).
Here, Cyrus is called the Shepherd.
Also Compare ya-Wa / Ahu-Ra
Cyrus was Zoroastrian? yet, the yhwh/Jews loved him
Did the Israelites at that time convert to the religion of Cyrus?
Israel has a dominion of Persia, would by influenced by persian religion
The Greek kingdom above would also influence Israelite religion
Last edited:
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
I personally would count that. Judaism evolved, but it need to start at some point. It may have been drastically different, but I would say some basic ideas can be seen, or at the very least, a distinguishable build up.
That is why I would accept Zoroastrianism as the first monotheistic religion, but still have originated after Judaism.
And there is a possibility that the Celtic religions did precede Judaism; however I think that needs to be proven, or at least shown to have a supporting amount of evidence. Otherwise, I think it is misleading to say it predated Judaism, especially since right now, the evidence points the other way. As you said though, religions are passed down orally, so maybe some day we can know for sure.
fallingblood
Agnostic Theist
Looking at the archaeology, as well as other historical documents, and just from history itself, the likely hood that Judaism was Polytheistic prior to 800 B.C.E. is extremely high. The Bible even gives hints about this. Such as the Hebrews worshipping other gods, with the distinction that those gods were very different from their God.
Levite
Higher and Higher
Wow. The OP of this thread is breathtakingly, stunningly incorrect.
Judaism originated in the environs of the Land of Israel. Its earliest predecessors probably originated in part as bedouin-type goatherds of the Sinai peninsula and former Egyptian slaves, who in part conquered and in part colonized the Land of Canaan.
There is ample evidence for Israelite Judaism existing at least as far back as 900 BCE, if not further. In fact, several years ago a silver leaf talisman was found in Jerusalem containing the Priestly Blessing (which, BTW, invokes God by the name YHVH, not Elohim) which was dated to around 1000 BCE. The earliest pre-Canaanitic Israelite were probably polytheistic, but by the time they seem to have settled in Canaan, they were mostly monolatrous (acknowledging YHVH as the chief god, but worshipping others alongside Him), with a segment of the populace leaning strongly to monotheism. While a majority of the Israelites appear to have remained monolatrous until at least after the Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BCE, monotheism did not completely conquer monolatry until the Return of the Babylonian Exile, around 500 BCE. However, there is ample evidence that the Israelite Jews of the Second Temple period were monotheistic.
And while there are certainly parallels in much of the ancient world to the oldest tales in Genesis, there is simply no evidence whatsoever that the ancient Israelites ever had anything to do with Greece. If the tales in Genesis were taken from anyone, they were almost certain brought from Ur. The Noah story, in particular, is far less similar to Deukalion than it is to Utnapishtim. The idea that Zeus is YHVH is ridiculous. If anything, the earliest theological conceptions of YHVH seem to indicate theological notions taken from the Canaanite/Midianite chief god, El, who was a mountain/sky god, and was wont to appear in clouds or pillars of fire.
Judaism originated in the environs of the Land of Israel. Its earliest predecessors probably originated in part as bedouin-type goatherds of the Sinai peninsula and former Egyptian slaves, who in part conquered and in part colonized the Land of Canaan.
There is ample evidence for Israelite Judaism existing at least as far back as 900 BCE, if not further. In fact, several years ago a silver leaf talisman was found in Jerusalem containing the Priestly Blessing (which, BTW, invokes God by the name YHVH, not Elohim) which was dated to around 1000 BCE. The earliest pre-Canaanitic Israelite were probably polytheistic, but by the time they seem to have settled in Canaan, they were mostly monolatrous (acknowledging YHVH as the chief god, but worshipping others alongside Him), with a segment of the populace leaning strongly to monotheism. While a majority of the Israelites appear to have remained monolatrous until at least after the Assyrian conquest of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BCE, monotheism did not completely conquer monolatry until the Return of the Babylonian Exile, around 500 BCE. However, there is ample evidence that the Israelite Jews of the Second Temple period were monotheistic.
And while there are certainly parallels in much of the ancient world to the oldest tales in Genesis, there is simply no evidence whatsoever that the ancient Israelites ever had anything to do with Greece. If the tales in Genesis were taken from anyone, they were almost certain brought from Ur. The Noah story, in particular, is far less similar to Deukalion than it is to Utnapishtim. The idea that Zeus is YHVH is ridiculous. If anything, the earliest theological conceptions of YHVH seem to indicate theological notions taken from the Canaanite/Midianite chief god, El, who was a mountain/sky god, and was wont to appear in clouds or pillars of fire.
Few things possess the scope of untethered ignorance.