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Judaisms Core

Jimmy

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
However, Catholic authorities have accused the Talmud of containing blasphemous references to Jesus and Mary, and Jewish scholars have denied these claims. As a result, many references to Jesus have been removed from subsequent editions of the Talmud

Interesting
 
G

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
King Phenomenon said:
However, Catholic authorities have accused the Talmud of containing blasphemous references to Jesus and Mary, and Jewish scholars have denied these claims. As a result, many references to Jesus have been removed from subsequent editions of the Talmud

Interesting
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To say that Catholic authorities had a selfish ambition to sow hatred and discord would certainly be interesting.
 
Jimmy

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
GoodAttention said:
To say that Catholic authorities had a selfish ambition to sow hatred and discord would certainly be interesting.
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It’s unfortunate that they cracked under the pressure. I just find it interesting because many people on this thread told me that Judaism has never given Jesus another thought.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Ebionite said:
So the video doesn't have anything that specifically addresses the point of difference between Israel the servant and the righteous servant of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 35, right?
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The difference you are asking about is a Christian theological perspective. I.e. the assertion is Christilogical in nature. Both videos address the Jewish perspectives which are different to the Christian perspective. That is what I mean.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
King Phenomenon said:
It’s unfortunate that they cracked under the pressure. I just find it interesting because many people on this thread told me that Judaism has never given Jesus another thought.
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Actually, what people may be trying to tell you is that Jesus has never been the core of Judaism in any way. It is possible that you already know that, but then again.....As a result, the only time Jesus comes up in Jewish cirlces is when:

a) Christian missionaries bring it up in order to attempt to convert Jews to Christianity.
b) When Christians who are curious ask why don't Jews beleive in / accept / etc. Jesus.
c) When claims are made that Jesus is somehow the core of Judaism, or some important factor in it.

Other than that, if these three things don't come up Jews would not discuss the NT version of Jesus at all.
 
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Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Ebionite said:
No, it is about the text of the Tanak. Christology is not relevant to the identification of the righteous servant.
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Given that the concept of picking out, as you stated about "Isiaiah 53" and "Psalms 35", in the way that you stated started from Christians who were not reading a Hebrew Tanakh, but instead reading various Christian translations, the concept "specifically addressing the point of difference between Israel the servant and the righteous servant" is a Christian theological point.

If it were really about the text of the Tanakh, from a Jewish perspective, one would read from Chapter 1 all the way to end in Hebrew. Doing so informs who is speaking, who is the subject, etc. If one is look for a Midrashic perspective that is not always Tanakh on it own.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Getting back to the OP, just for information.

There are several elements that are considered to be the Core of historical Jewish concepts of the Torah. Generally speaking they are.
  1. The one-ness of the Source of Creation.
  2. The giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, by the Source of Creation, to the Benei Yisrael (the ancestors of modern Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Benei Menashe, etc..
  3. Oral and written Torah from the Source of Creation to Mosheh ben-Amram and the Benei Yisrael.
All other formulations either fall into three categories or expand on them.

This is what is meant that Jesus isn't and never has been the core of what is called Judaism, either modernly or historically.
 
1

1213

Well-Known Member
Ehav4Ever said:
Here is a list of the differences:
  1. The Hebrew doesn't include captial and lower case. I.e. the word (משיח) does have a form of capitilization with it in any form. Thus, one can't come up Messiah vs messiah.
  2. The word used in (משיחו) doesn't mean "his messiah" it just means someone who has been a) appointed for something or b) somone who has had oil poured on them as a part of a political appointment.
  3. There is nothing in the Hebrew below that denotes that specifically what is being talked about is a Davidic king.
    • It is only by way of a commentary that one can come to the conclusion that this (משיח) is specifically connected to the Davidic kingship. For example, Jewish commentators Rashi and Ibn Ezra explain that Tehillim (Psalm) 2 was written by one of the one the members of King David's court about David when David was appointed / annointed as king or b) about the future Davidic king.
    • The idea this is talking about Jesus is a "new testament / Christian" commentary idea.
    • There is nothing in the Hebrew that points to a prophecy specific about a Davidic king.
  4. The text uses the terms (גויים) and (אולמים) to note the reaction of the nations / peoples against Hashem and his apppointed one. It also makes the statement of (יתיצבו, מלכי-ארץ) which denotes kings in the same land where this appointed one / annointed one is found gathering together against said appointed Israeli leader.
    • Rashi states that Tehillim 2 is referencing what is stated in Shmuel 2 (Samuel) chapter 1 concerning the reaction of the Pelishtim (Philliestines) when David became king. The text is what Rashi states in Hebrew is shown below.
  5. View attachment 93910
I hope that helps.
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Thank you. I agree that the word Messiah means anointed. There are many who are anointed, which is why I think it would be silly to say messiah is not something that belongs to Judaism. And I think it is irrelevant is the word Messiah with capital letter. The point was just to show, the idea of Messiah is not only a Christian thing. The disputed thing is, who is the Messiah, not the existence of the Messiah in Jewish scriptures. And obviously many Jews think Jesus is not the Messiah, which I think is wrong.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Getting back to the OP, just for information.

There are several elements that are considered to be the Core of historical Jewish concepts of the Torah. Generally speaking they are.
  1. The one-ness of the Source of Creation.
  2. The giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai, by the Source of Creation, to the Benei Yisrael (the ancestors of modern Mizrahi Jews, Sephardic Jews, Yemenite Jews, Ashkenazi Jews, Ethiopian Jews, Benei Menashe, etc..
  3. Oral and written Torah from the Source of Creation to Mosheh ben-Amram and the Benei Yisrael.
All other formulations either fall into three categories or expand on them.

This is what is meant that Jesus isn't and never has been the core of what is called Judaism, either modernly or historically.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Ebionite said:
No, Christians associate Christ with Psalm 22 and Psalm 69, not Psalm 35.
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There are different types of Christians who associate Jesus with all kinds of things in the Christian bible. I found a Christian site that makes Psalm 35 out to be a Christian association for Jesus.

1720504539459.png

1720504509411.png
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Ebionite said:
They are talking about the Messiah, not the Christ. The crucified man of Psalm 22 and 69 had low self esteem, but the righteous servant of Psalm 35 was jubilant.
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They appear to be talking about the same thing since most Christians consider a "Messiah" and a "Christ" to be the same thing. Yet, like I said there are Christians who consider Psalm 35 to be associated with some aspect of the NT Jesus narrative. Thus, seeing someone ask about Isaiah 53 and then Psalm seems to be laying a similar framework to what is traditionally used in various forms of Christianity.

That is what I was getting at.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
1213 said:
There are many who are anointed, which is why I think it would be silly to say messiah is not something that belongs to Judaism.
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The Christian concept of a messiah doesn't belong to Judaism. That is what is meant by what I wrote. The word (משיח) doesn't mean a messiah as in a "savior" like it does in Christianity. The concept is completely different since in Judaism, a (משיח) is a political statement where in Christianity the concept of a messiah is associate with salvation.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
1213 said:
And I think it is irrelevant is the word Messiah with capital letter.
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Capalizing a letter has meaning. For example, if I write the word mashi'ahh as a transliteration into English of (משיח) that obviously has a different meaning than if I write Mashi'ahh as a transliteration of (משיח). The lower case first letter would denote anyone who is annointed with oil or holds a particular type of political position in ancient Israel. The second, with the capital first letter, obviously means I am writing about a very specific mashi'ahh, i.e. the one that we Jews say will exist in the future during a return to a Torah based Israeli nation in the land of Israel. Thus, capitalizing does have significance.
 
Ehav4Ever

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
1213 said:
The disputed thing is, who is the Messiah, not the existence of the Messiah in Jewish scriptures. And obviously many Jews think Jesus is not the Messiah, which I think is wrong.
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There is no dispute from the Jewish side. If Christians think Jesus is their messiah / Messiah, it is not the place of us Jews to tell you any different. Whether we Jews think / feel / know about the topic should have no bearing on Christians whatsoever. Besides, there are way more Christians in the word than us Jews so we should be completely insignificiant and inconceivable to Christian concerns.

1720506527922.png
 
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