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Judaisms Core

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
They appear to be talking about the same thing since most Christians consider a "Messiah" and a "Christ" to be the same thing.
Appearances and reality are not the same thing - that is the lesson from the Psalms. While the words Christ and Messiah are related by etymology, the associations that Pauline Christianity and Judaism make for those words are incompatible.

Yet, like I said there are Christians who consider Psalm 35 to be associated with some aspect of the NT Jesus narrative.
While that is true, it is not part of the salvic doctrine that is central to Christology.

Thus, seeing someone ask about Isaiah 53 and then Psalm seems to be laying a similar framework to what is traditionally used in various forms of Christianity.
That's understandable, but it should be apparent that the prophetic Psalms are not all about the same people.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Appearances and reality are not the same thing - that is the lesson from the Psalms. While the words Christ and Messiah are related by etymology, the associations that Pauline Christianity and Judaism make for those words are incompatible.
Whether appearances and and reality are not the same thing could be an arguement on Jesus centered theology, it is not for me to intepret between what English words like messiah and christ mean to those who believe in Jesus to be something to them. I can accept that what words mean to Jesus beleivers is whatever they say they are for them.

Thus, like I said before there are Christians associate Isaiah 53 with Jesus and there are Christians who associate Psalms 35 with Jesus. If their associates don't meet a particular concept within the Jesus / Yeshua beleif communities, that is something that those communities can determine on thier own.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
While that is true, it is not part of the salvic doctrine that is central to Christology.
Whether it is a part of a doctrine or not, there are obviously different types of Christianity use whatever doctrines meet their theological perspectives. That is why I stated that asking about Isaiah 53 and Psalms 35 in relation to the link I posted raised a particular flag that sound similar to the site I posted that found a reference to Jesus in Psalm 35.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Whether it is a part of a doctrine or not, there are obviously different types of Christianity use whatever doctrines meet their theological perspectives.
It's not really accurate to call the association between Psalm 35 and the Messiah part of Christianity, since Christianity itself takes the side of the false witnesses of Psalm 35:11 in John 2:19.

Arguably doctrine relating to the righteous servant is a better fit for Judaism rather than Christianity because of the emphasis that Judaism places on righteousness.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...The word (משיח) doesn't mean a messiah as in a "savior" like it does in Christianity. ...
I don't think the word itself means even in Christianity anything else than anointed. At least in Biblical point of view it should not. But, there are many things attributed to the person that is called the Messiah.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
... Whether we Jews think / feel / know about the topic should have no bearing on Christians whatsoever. Besides, there are way more Christians in the word than us Jews so we should be completely insignificiant and inconceivable to Christian concerns.
I think all people are important, even if their number is small. And on my behalf truth matters and I hope also Jews would know the truth. But, for me Jews are especially important, because of their ancestors who did great things.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I find it odd that the core of Judaism still seems to revolve around the rejection of Christ. Why do they give Jesus all that power? Why don’t they just go about their business and worship their God? I don’t believe in Buddha, but the rejection of him isn’t the center of my beliefs. Hmm… is there something deeper? Makes me wonder…
I thought the main belief was in one God.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
I thought the main belief was in one God.
'God' is ambiguous. Official Christian doctrine is that 'God' is a trinity of persons, but in Exodus 19-20 Moses is a member of Elohim, and Elohim is one of the words that are translated as 'God'.

The shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) is about YHWH, not Elohim.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I think all people are important, even if their number is small. And on my behalf truth matters and I hope also Jews would know the truth. But, for me Jews are especially important, because of their ancestors who did great things.
You don't have to worry about Jews in the truth matters department. We are doing okay there. Concerning the matters of Christianity, we have literally heard every version of it for about 1,700 years, and overwhelmingly we have deemed it as something that is not for us to enter into.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
It's not really accurate to call the association between Psalm 35 and the Messiah part of Christianit
I didn't say it was a part of Christinaity. What I wrote was, "there are obviously different types of Christianity use whatever doctrines meet their theological perspectives."
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I don't think the word itself means even in Christianity anything else than anointed. At least in Biblical point of view it should not. But, there are many things attributed to the person that is called the Messiah.
Even if that were true, the word in Hebrew doesn't denote a "messiah" or "savior." Theologically, when Christians speak of a "Messiah" they are talking about something different than what the word (משיח) means in the Hebrew language.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
I didn't say it was a part of Christinaity. What I wrote was, "there are obviously different types of Christianity use whatever doctrines meet their theological perspectives."
The same can be said for Judaism. The point of commonality is Paul of Tarsus because the Pharisees were the theological ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism and Paul was a Pharisee. Christology is mostly developed from Pauline doctrine, so understanding Paul is the key to understanding why Judaism rejects Christianity.
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
The same can be said for Judaism. The point of commonality is Paul of Tarsus because the Pharisees were the theological ancestors of Rabbinical Judaism and Paul was a Pharisee. Christology is mostly developed from Pauline doctrine, so understanding Paul is the key to understanding why Judaism rejects Christianity.
That is not really true. The claim of Paul being a Pharisee comes from the new testament. One good indication of this is that the new testament never defines what the title even means or even how Paul, claimed to have been from Tarsus, could have been one. Very little is even known about who Paul was in the first place, but it is highly unlikely that the claims about Paul being a Pharisee is historically accurate.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
That is not really true.
So you think that it's highly unlikely based on how little you know, or because the target audience could not have been expected to know what a Pharisee was?

The Hellenization of [Tarsus] began in the days of Alexander the Great; this influence was fully felt by the Jews, who had been colonized at Tarsus bythe Seleucids about 170 B.C.

 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
So you think that it's highly unlikely based on how little you know, or because the target audience could not have been expected to know what a Pharisee was?

The Hellenization of [Tarsus] began in the days of Alexander the Great; this influence was fully felt by the Jews, who had been colonized at Tarsus bythe Seleucids about 170 B.C.

I think it is unlikely for a historical and geophgraphical reasons. Also, the narrative given in the new testament about Paul is suspect. I would definately say that the authors of the NT also didn't seem very aware of what it means Jewishly to say "Perushim." Also, those who read the earliest versions of the NT would not have known either.

Also, the writings that scholars attribute to Paul contain a lot of Hellonist ideas that potray someone who was not a Parush.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
You don't have to worry about Jews in the truth matters department. We are doing okay there. Concerning the matters of Christianity, we have literally heard every version of it for about 1,700 years, and overwhelmingly we have deemed it as something that is not for us to enter into.
That is an interesting claim. I don't think Jews should turn into Christianity. I think it would be good, if they would remain Jews and become disciples of Jesus. There is a great differences between what Jesus said and what many Christians say. And unfortunately many have been misled from Jesus by Christian teachings that are not Biblical.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Even if that were true, the word in Hebrew doesn't denote a "messiah" or "savior." Theologically, when Christians speak of a "Messiah" they are talking about something different than what the word (משיח) means in the Hebrew language.
Bible tells that Jews expected Messiah before Jesus came on earth. Do you think that is true, and if so, why do you think they expected Messiah?
 

Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
I think it would be good, if they would remain Jews and become disciples of Jesus.
That is actually a bad iea for a number of reasons. One is because we Jews are commanded not to become disciples of such a thing. Also, whenever Jews have done what you are suggesting it has been a disaster for them. Here are a few threads where what you are describing was discussed already.



 
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