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Kingdom Gospel ism
- Thread starter OtherSheep
- Start date
Just as Jesus said at Matthew 7:21-23 I find that MANY would come 'in Jesus' name' but prove false.
So, what is to be agreed upon is the first-century teachings of Jesus as found in Scripture.
The MANY simply follow church customs or church traditions over Scripture, but teach them as being Scripture.
Its not a magic book that magically manifests reality.
I get what you mean and I am extremely well versed in all the dynamics of church. I avoid debates with the faith unless its so absurd beyond nonsense that I have to say something.
So my comment is how we perceive nature is sometimes in both religion and science with simple disagreements on tiny details is all. Because they share a common view of nature.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I believe so. Matthew 24 refers to the many antichrists we see claiming to come in Jesus's authority, when they have another Jesus and are Satanic. I here what you are saying about anointed--and I know as well as anyone as saved Jew how the word Christ means "anointed", however, a shocking number of false prophets and teachers have claimed to be Christ! For example, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, who furthered eastern religion and concepts in the West in a BIG way, and getting a boost from his famous patrons like The Beatles, said, "I'm the Christ, I just travel in my private 747," or David Koresh, who chosen titles and preaching appropriated the title of Christ.
John 5 is equally important. My only Lord and guide is Jesus Christ, come in the flesh to save.
I'm not sure what these two passages have to do with our discussion--it's very important to discern whom Jesus is speaking of in the NT, to have solid doctrine. For example, I would say there are comments in the NT for different people groups to highlight (though all the Word is good for born agains, of course):
* comments to Gentiles
* comments to Jews
* comments to the saved Church
* comments to unbelievers
For example, reading John 3, an unsaved person could get saved by seeing they are like Nicodemus, interested in Jesus but a bit confused, and then they hear Jesus offering salvation and the chance to be born again (John 3:3, 16, 17-18, etc.). A lot of the NT is written to unsaved persons--I give gospels of John out frequently when I evangelize.
Does that make sense to you?
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
Do you believe that NT Canon is correct? or that these verses are true?
John 5:24 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and
believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come
into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Isaiah 56:6 "Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of My covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon Mine altar; for Mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people."
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I never considered the Bible as a magic book, but a text book, an educational book.
Yes, I can agree that religion, as in biblical religion, and science share a common view of nature.
I am wondering if you have something specific in mind.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I believe the 66 books are inerrant and true. None of the apocrypha.
I believe John 5 is assurance--I have trusted Jesus for salvation and have eternal life, now.
I believe Isaiah 56:6 is true--those who took covenant steps to join Israel experienced joy at their conversion and in the Temple, and that 7 is true--the Messiah unto all peoples taught at the House and the Third House or Temple will be the delight of the nations. However, the covenant of 56 included circumcision--which is one example of binding to law that nullifies and bars from grace--Galatians for some examples.
Thanks.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
I don't follow the manmade canon any more than I follow Saul of Tarsus, around whom the canon revolves; I'm happily barred from that "grace".
Thank you for making the division so clear.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
According to God the Father, and to Jesus the Son of God.
Esaias 8:18 "Behold I and the children which God has given Me: and they shall be for signs and wonders in the house of Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells in mount Sion."
John 17:6-8 "I did manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou hast given to Me out of the world; Thine they were, and to me Thou hast given them, and Thy word they have kept; now they have known that all things, as many as Thou hast given to me, are from Thee, because the sayings that Thou hast given to Me, I have given to them, and they themselves received, and have known truly, that from Thee I came forth, and they did believe that Thou didst send Me."
John 17:20-21 "And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in Me; that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in Me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me."
John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My [sheep], and am known by Mine, according as the Father doth know Me, and I know the Father, and My life I lay down for the sheep, and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth Me to bring, and My voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd."
____________
The 11 Disciples of Jesus are the flock, and I'm of other sheep. The 11 Disciples belonged to God by following the Mosaic Law. And because they had followed the Law, they followed the Kingdom Gospel which came from the Law. I'm one of those sheep who are "believing, through their word, in Jesus."
Jesus warns me against hirelings, and I take Him at His word. Jesus warns me against ravening wolves... and of horns like a lamb, but the pride of a lion. This also, I believe. Jesus tells me to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, who teach the commandments of men. And I believe in the revelations of Jesus... every parable, every commandment, every word of the Son of God.
Esaias 8:18 "Behold I and the children which God has given Me: and they shall be for signs and wonders in the house of Israel from the Lord of hosts, who dwells in mount Sion."
John 17:6-8 "I did manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou hast given to Me out of the world; Thine they were, and to me Thou hast given them, and Thy word they have kept; now they have known that all things, as many as Thou hast given to me, are from Thee, because the sayings that Thou hast given to Me, I have given to them, and they themselves received, and have known truly, that from Thee I came forth, and they did believe that Thou didst send Me."
John 17:20-21 "And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in Me; that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in Me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me."
John 10:14-16 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My [sheep], and am known by Mine, according as the Father doth know Me, and I know the Father, and My life I lay down for the sheep, and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth Me to bring, and My voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd."
____________
The 11 Disciples of Jesus are the flock, and I'm of other sheep. The 11 Disciples belonged to God by following the Mosaic Law. And because they had followed the Law, they followed the Kingdom Gospel which came from the Law. I'm one of those sheep who are "believing, through their word, in Jesus."
Jesus warns me against hirelings, and I take Him at His word. Jesus warns me against ravening wolves... and of horns like a lamb, but the pride of a lion. This also, I believe. Jesus tells me to beware the leaven of the Pharisees, who teach the commandments of men. And I believe in the revelations of Jesus... every parable, every commandment, every word of the Son of God.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Which Bible books do you reject? Revelation has a "don't take out or add to" warning that concerns me.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
What do I completely accept? The testimony of the 11 Disciples... the two witnesses.
Revelation is speaking only about the scroll of Revelation.
22:18 `For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll,
22:19 and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'
Young's Literal Translation helps, doesn't it. Because when Revelation was written, it wasn't bound in a book of canonized writings. It was a separate scroll.
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BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I can accept that translation. There are plenty of warnings elsewhere, like when Peter says Paul is writing scripture, Peter being one of the 11, and as people have noticed, when he draws lots for a 12th, the winner doesn't do anything else in the NT and Acts may even imply that Paul is the 12th.
The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah . . .?
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
Is it likely that Peter would call "scripture," letters of someone who does both of these two first verses... in those letters? Acts lies about Peter by saying that Peter had a vision that told him to eat carnivores. Peter wasn't that kind of person.
Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (The whole letter to the Galatians does that.)
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Foolish Galatians, is what he said.)
Saul doesn't match even Acts's criteria.
Acts 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that He was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Matthew 17:12 "But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. 13 Then the disciples understood that He spake unto them of John the Baptist."
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
I don't believe--from the scriptures--that people who use the term "fool" are in literal danger of hellfire. Either a person is assured of salvation via trusting Jesus or not IMHO. Are the writers of Proverbs going to Hell for writing entire chapters describing the difference between fools and wise persons?
Jesus said what Peter would eat would pass through his alimentary canal and that his words would mark his state, instead. I'm a Jewish Christian and have more than a passing knowledge of food regulations and what Peter might have done or not. All the apostles were at that Acts conference, and they agreed with Paul and supported his commission.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
QUOTE="BilliardsBall, post: 5711027, member: 40171"]I don't believe--from the scriptures--that people who use the term "fool" are in literal danger of hellfire. Either a person is assured of salvation via trusting Jesus or not IMHO. Are the writers of Proverbs going to Hell for writing entire chapters describing the difference between fools and wise persons?
Jesus said what Peter would eat would pass through his alimentary canal and that his words would mark his state, instead. I'm a Jewish Christian and have more than a passing knowledge of food regulations and what Peter might have done or not. All the apostles were at that Acts conference, and they agreed with Paul and supported his commission.[/QUOTE
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You believe Saul over what Jesus says, and that's what generally happens.
Proverbs came before Jesus, not after Jesus. What Jesus says isn't retroactive.
Matthew 15:20 "to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." Jesus responds directly to the unwashed hands question, saying nothing at all about breaking the Law of Moses in order to eat what dogs eat.
Jesus said what Peter would eat would pass through his alimentary canal and that his words would mark his state, instead. I'm a Jewish Christian and have more than a passing knowledge of food regulations and what Peter might have done or not. All the apostles were at that Acts conference, and they agreed with Paul and supported his commission.[/QUOTE
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
You believe Saul over what Jesus says, and that's what generally happens.
Proverbs came before Jesus, not after Jesus. What Jesus says isn't retroactive.
Matthew 15:20 "to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." Jesus responds directly to the unwashed hands question, saying nothing at all about breaking the Law of Moses in order to eat what dogs eat.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Welcome to RF.
I do not see any reason why that would be so. God is not limited by law.
I believe the Biblical evidence point to a premilennial end of the world.
I believe Paul's gospel is not at odds with the gospel of Jesus and that Paul's gospel is meant for everyone who reads it.
I believe His word includes Paul's Gospel and that both gospels serve the circumcision and the Gentiles.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe that is irrelevant. I believe Jesus fulfills the law so that makes the law new whenever He chooses instead of one stuck in a book. The book remains but some of that law has become irrelevant because Jesus has said something new.
OtherSheep,
Just to start, I do not believe that you are part of the Other Sheep, John 10:16. These Other Sheep that Jesus was speaking about, were, most likely The Gentiles that would be accepted into a Little Flock, that Jesus mentioned at Luke 12:32. The first Gentile accepted into that group was Cornelius, a Centurian of Roman Army. All of this Little Flock, which the Bible tells us numbered 144,000. This number started with the Apostles, and continued down to the 1900’s at which time this number was completed. All of these will be resurrected to heaven to be Immortal Kings and Priests, with Jesus, Romans 8:17, Revelation 7:4: 14:1-5, 20:4-6. Notice that these will be resurrected in the First Resurrection, and the Second Death will have no power over them, meaning they will be Resurrected Immortal, 1Corinthians 15:50-54.
The people who you call the other sheep are the ones who live through the Great Tribulation, into Thousand Year Judgement Day, Revelation 7:14. Notice how the 144,000, are contrasted with a Great Crowd, Revelation 7:4 and 7:9.
During the Thousand Year Judgement Daythe earth will be brought to a perfect condition, just as the people who will live through the Great Tribulation, and the billions who will be resurrected back to live on earth, just the way God’s Original Purpose was, Genesis 1:26-28, Psalms 37:29, Isaiah 45:18, Psalms 115:16. As the Bible says, the ones taken to heaven to rule with Jesus, over the one who live through the Great Tribulation and the resurrected ones, for a thousand years, then come the final test Revelation 20:7-10. Everyone who lives through this final test will be granted Everlasting Life on a perfect Paradise Earth, Revelation 21:1-7.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
How do you explain Saul's using the term concision (mutilation) with regard to the circumcision of the covenant? Or are we all supposed to think that isn't what he meant?
How do you possibly explain-away the whole doctrine of mouldy old law of Moses which comes directly from the teachings of Saul of Cilicia? His indoctrinated pal Barnabus wrote the letter to the Hebrews in which he calls the law faulty. That's blasphemy, straight up.
And in fact, Saul seems very much to be saying that the testator has died and freed us from the law. Since we know who that testator is, who is also called the husband in the analogy... is it just a very bad analogy, as usual... or is Saul actually saying that the God of Sinai died? Which is also blasphemy, in case anyone cares. And over a hundred years ago, people were discussing this very thing. Some even said that Jesus can't get a word in edgewise, within the christian doctrines... and they are spot on.
Saul is the first cause of division in the so-called church. He unified nothing, without first destroying every thing Jesus ever says. The people who don't see that to be the case are those who say "everything changed after" the Pharisaical cold-blooded murder of Jesus. But, since Jesus Himself comes to tell His Disciple-Apostles what they were to teach... that "change" certainly isn't something Jesus signed onto. And since at the same time, Jesus gave His 11 the Holy Spirit... well, the rest of that "change theory" also falls to the ground. Not that anyone much has noticed it. Laodicea is full-bloom.
OtherSheep
<--@ Titangel
When Jesus was speaking that verse, He was speaking of the Disciples who were following Him from day one. The other sheep are all of the people who hear Jesus voice... through the testimony of the 11... and hearing means building our house on the rock by doing what Jesus commands.
The 144k will be the recombined Divided Kingdom. They will be brought back into the land, according to Ezekiel, to inherit the waste places. They are literally the tribes of the house of Israel and Judah, or most of prophecy would have no meaning whatsoever.