Koran dated to before Muhamad birth.

[outhouse]

Compare the world before the 7th century and after it, the world changed rapidly towards civilization which can never be achieved
with the barbarian world of that era.

I don't see a change.

Personally I still see barbarianism on a massive scale. Nice job?

 

[outhouse]

Compare the world before the 7th century and after it, the world changed rapidly towards civilization which can never be achieved
with the barbarian world of that era.

You made a claim, I want you to stand up behind it, and provide credible sources that shows your being honest.

 

[FearGod]

They are Muslims with faith in Quran and Allah.
They just interpret it differently than you do.
And lots of other Muslims agree with them, not you.
Tom

The ISIS will fail and it can't be compared to the great message of prophet Mohammed.

 

[FearGod]

I don't see a change.

Personally I still see barbarianism on a massive scale. Nice job?

Reading the history without being biased will help in understanding what kind of man he was.
Enough to me that he ended the killing of the female babies which were practiced in the barbarian world of that era.

 

[columbus]

The ISIS will fail and it can't be compared to the great message of prophet Mohammed.

They are much more like Muhammad and his followers than most modern Muslims are.
Tom

 

[Augustus]

Without him we would still have some kind of monotheism it just would have taken place slower.

Christianity and Judaism had been present throughout the Hijaz for centuries. Most Arabs, or at least a large proportion were already 'monotheists'. At least some of the Quran is a polemic against the 'polytheistic monotheists'.

See for example:

https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_Quranic_Deities.pdf

 

[outhouse]

he ended the killing of the female babies

What sad is you place this man in a light he does not belong in.

You admit that one can be a baby murderer if done for the right reasons. There factually is no right reason. Sad dude

 

[outhouse]

Christianity and Judaism had been present throughout the Hijaz for centuries. Most Arabs, or at least a large proportion were already 'monotheists'. At least some of the Quran is a polemic against the 'polytheistic monotheists'.

Understood.

His cousin was a Christian. Monotheism was coming forward as it did in Judaism and Christianity. Its population was spreading and the population was in a position to be reigned in so to speak.

 

[FearGod]

I have searched it and read it in details, there's nothing in there that proves anything. This is why I asked you to bring up an example so we can discuss it.

That will derail us from the OP

Actually if you want to be more precise, the word comes from a 3 letter Semitic root "B-R-Q", this same word exists in Aramaic and Hebrew and it means lightning. But even if we understand the meaning of the word, you still did not answer the question, you're willing to believe that Mohammad was able to travel at the speed of light with no technology that even modern science has not achieved, yet you cannot accept that God can walk down in a human form. To me they're both illogical, to you it's obviously you're choosing one over the other, what's your reasoning besides your faith?

I believe البراق is the UFO, but i admit it is just what i believe.

I have not seen one but if they do exist, prove they're not some military technology? Or perhaps an advanced alien specie? Who knows, that's why they're UFOs (Unidentified flying objects). So are we trying to claim that Mohammad traveled with aliens now?

Yes we can't prove it other than Unidentified flying objects

Sure, Jesus talking as an infant and Moses splitting the sea are two off the top of my head.

God used such examples to test our logical thoughts, comparing it to the mind of the atheists for believing that everything
in the universe works in harmony without the need for any plan or design but things just happened to
go in that direction, have a look in my 2 threads http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-do-you-think-of-the-virgin-birth-of-jesus.176754/ & http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/jesus-bringing-back-life-to-the-dead.176809/

 

[FearGod]

They are much more like Muhammad and his followers than most modern Muslims are.
Tom

The west attacked Iraq killing many civilians for no reason, do you think the west were applying the message of Islam in Iraq.
Why you think that wars only done because of Islam, was Hitler a Muslim, just few examples.

 

[FearGod]

What sad is you place this man in a light he does not belong in.

You admit that one can be a baby murderer if done for the right reasons. There factually is no right reason. Sad dude

It will always be a negative argument, you'll always refuse any fact that supports my point.

 

[columbus]

The west attacked Iraq killing many civilians for no reason, do you think the west were applying the message of Islam in Iraq.

It was not for no reason.
I believe that it was for control of the ME oil fields. Not just the ones in Iraq, although those are enormous. But all of them, including Iran. By having huge military bases just over the Iran/ Iraq border the USA could force Iran into things at gunpoint.

The people who really rule the USA wanted that kind of wealth and power so badly they fooled themselves into believing their own lies.
I learned a lot about the Iraq invasion by talking to Muslims who actually knew the history and area.
Tom

 

[outhouse]

you'll always refuse any fact that supports my point.

You have no facts.

Because they are not academic or credible.

 

[SuperScript22]

That will derail us from the OP

I think we already derailed it quite a bit, I don't think going further is going to harm anything.

I believe البراق is the UFO, but i admit it is just what i believe.

Yes we can't prove it other than Unidentified flying objects

I'm glad that you're honest that this is what you believe and not what's proof. In that respect it puts you in the same category as other religions.

God used such examples to test our logical thoughts, comparing it to the mind of the atheists for believing that everything
in the universe works in harmony without the need for any plan or design but things just happened to
go in that direction, have a look in my 2 threads http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/what-do-you-think-of-the-virgin-birth-of-jesus.176754/ & http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/jesus-bringing-back-life-to-the-dead.176809/

This does not mean anything to me since it does not hold any facts nor evidence to anything.

Look, I have no issue with people claiming certain beliefs, but since we're on a religion forum I'm simply trying to say that if you're going to say you believe in something, don't mix it with fact unless you have facts. For the record, I'm not an atheist because atheists believe that there's no god nor afterlife. To me I say we don't know, god may exist or he may not, if he does exist it could be a she, or perhaps a panel of gods and goddesses, who knows, maybe those atheists have it right all along, the point is we don't know and there's nothing wrong in saying that rather than being scared to question the beliefs we grew up in.

Watch this video:

Religion can be started by humans just like the video shows, that's how Islam, Christianity, etc started. If a man is able to do it in today's world surely charismatic men were able to do it thousands of years ago.

 

[FearGod]

I think we already derailed it quite a bit, I don't think going further is going to harm anything.



I'm glad that you're honest that this is what you believe and not what's proof. In that respect it puts you in the same category as other religions.



This does not mean anything to me since it does not hold any facts nor evidence to anything.

Look, I have no issue with people claiming certain beliefs, but since we're on a religion forum I'm simply trying to say that if you're going to say you believe in something, don't mix it with fact unless you have facts. For the record, I'm not an atheist because atheists believe that there's no god nor afterlife. To me I say we don't know, god may exist or he may not, if he does exist it could be a she, or perhaps a panel of gods and goddesses, who knows, maybe those atheists have it right all along, the point is we don't know and there's nothing wrong in saying that rather than being scared to question the beliefs we grew up in.

Watch this video:

Religion can be started by humans just like the video shows, that's how Islam, Christianity, etc started. If a man is able to do it in today's world surely charismatic men were able to do it thousands of years ago.

What about the prophecy ? do you think it is just by luck ?
Prophet is a word derived from prophecy which means telling what will happen in the future.

For example if i told that God informed me that on Friday at 4 pm a disastrous earthquake will hit the USA, then
imagine that what i told had happened exactly at 4 pm, then i told you an airplane will fall down on Sunday at 8 pm,
imagine that what i told had happened too, will you believe that i was just lucky or a supernatural power was telling such
information to me about the future.

 

[Flankerl]

the first superpower in the world

I think the various Persian Empires, Rome and holy crap China precede the Muslim conquests by a few years.

 

[SuperScript22]

What about the prophecy ? do you think it is just by luck ?
Prophet is a word derived from prophecy which means telling what will happen in the future.

Prophecy is a funny business because usually in the religious books these prophecies are precise, for example God warning the people in the book in great detail to what will happen to them within the lifetime of that book, which renders such prophecy useless in such argument. Then there are those so called not so precise prophecies that people use to legitimate the book. These prophecies are pretty vague and can be used in many different ways. Imagine if I were to write a book today and within my book I say "Man will fly into the skies", given that we already fly imagine that one day humans go to other planets, all of the sudden I'm a prophet if one interprets my verse in such way.

For example if i told that God informed me that on Friday at 4 pm a disastrous earthquake will hit the USA, then
imagine that what i told had happened exactly at 4 pm, then i told you an airplane will fall down on Sunday at 8 pm,
imagine that what i told had happened too, will you believe that i was just lucky or a supernatural power was telling such
information to me about the future.

That's the problem, God does not tell you details in your book, oddly he tells the details only to the people who are living in the book, but in your case he does not give you that and is very vague that any religious book out there with such vague predictions can be interpreted in such way.

 

[FearGod]

Prophecy is a funny business because usually in the religious books these prophecies are precise, for example God warning the people in the book in great detail to what will happen to them within the lifetime of that book, which renders such prophecy useless in such argument. Then there are those so called not so precise prophecies that people use to legitimate the book. These prophecies are pretty vague and can be used in many different ways. Imagine if I were to write a book today and within my book I say "Man will fly into the skies", given that we already fly imagine that one day humans go to other planets, all of the sudden I'm a prophet if one interprets my verse in such way.



That's the problem, God does not tell you details in your book, oddly he tells the details only to the people who are living in the book, but in your case he does not give you that and is very vague that any religious book out there with such vague predictions can be interpreted in such way.

How did the prophet know that Judaism will survive and become a great power near the end of time, how that is possible while
he supposed to convert people to Islam, how did he know that Jews will scatter all over the world, how he did know that they
will return and immigrate to the holy land and take over it from the Muslims.

It doesn't need any twisting, it is a very clear prophecy, i think it is only a wishful thinking as to think it the other way as an excuse for the disbelievers
to live the life they chose for themselves.

 

[outhouse]

the point is we don't know

You mean YOU don't know. Some of us actually do know.

Prophecy is a funny business because usually in the religious books these prophecies are precise

Its deeper then that brother.

Originally a prophet was just someone who spoke for god, his mouthpiece so to speak, it had nothing to do with telling the future. That is a modern interpretation.

There is very few passages dealing with the future, and of those you often find contradicting text.


Maybe the Koran expanded on that and added what they wish, its not my favorite book of study.

there's nothing wrong in saying that

I think that's great advise.

I would rather have you say that honestly, then to make claims of certainty without knowing the full spectrum of history that is known related to the god concepts.

 

[SuperScript22]

How did the prophet know that Judaism will survive and become a great power near the end of time,

The Jews had survived for over a thousand years prior to Islam and were a resilient and influential people that were always targeted. Mind you I would be more impressed if he said specific Christian nations would rise up and be the most powerful in the future such as USA, Russia, UK, Germany, etc.

how that is possible while he supposed to convert people to Islam, how did he know that Jews will scatter all over the world, how he did know that they
will return and immigrate to the holy land and take over it from the Muslims.

The Jews were already scattered during that time, most importantly these are notes from the Bible (Jews being scattered by God and that one day the land of Israel would be returned to them), now go ahead and prove to me that Muhammad did not take this from the Bible.

It doesn't need any twisting, it is a very clear prophecy, i think it is only a wishful thinking as to think it the other way as an excuse for the disbelievers
to live the life they chose for themselves.

It's not a prophecy if it's not direct and straight forward, vague prophecies in such texts are easy to accomplish and there's nothing impressive about them. Here's what I would consider a real prophecy (Imaging we're living in 1990):

"Germany will beat Argentina in the finals of the 2014 world cup by the score of 1-0"

Here's a vague prophecy:

"Germany will be a tough team that will have a good chance in winning the world cup in the future"

Granted I would want more than one direct prophecy to eliminate luck, but still, the accuracy of the first prophecy is significant. That's not the kind of prophecy you have in the book, you have a lot of the second type of prophecy, which is vague and may or may not happen, and if it does happen it could be interpreted in different ways.