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Kowtow to Atheists? Oh, hell to the no!

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
there are times when "attacking the man", so to speak, is NOT an ad hominem, but a logically legitimate argument. For instance:

JONES: The caravan contains middle eastern terrorists, and thus must be met by armed force.

SMITH: Jones is known to be a pathological liar who seldom tells the truth. There is no other evidence that the caravan contains middle eastern terrorists other than his word, which is unreliable. Therefore, it seems unlikely the caravan contains middle eastern terrorists, and for that reason needs to be met by armed force.

The reason that argument is NOT an ad hominem is because the reason given for rejecting Jone's argument is indeed relevant to the truth or falsity of Jone's argument.

I make a distinction - and perhaps you do as well - between dismissing a claim or argument because its source is considered unreliable, and concluding that the claim must be wrong if it came from such a source, only the latter being the informal ad hominem fallacy, the former being sound judgment.

So if somebody with a reputation for lying makes a claim, even if followed by evidence, argument, and conclusion. I feel justified in ignoring it all.

One may offer that the argument should be evaluated on its own merit, but the problem there is that to do that properly, one needs not only to fact check the claims of fact in the argument, which is hardly worth the effort in most cases, but also perform the much more difficult task of trying to identify what evidence has been omitted.

Consider this bit of creationist apologetics from DNA tests prove Darwin Was Wrong - Ape DNA very different from human DNA - Laws of Genetics Contradicts Ape to Human Evolution

"But the fact is, humans actually have 23 pairs of chromosomes while apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes. Apes, gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, etc. all have more chromosomes than humans. During the first half of the 20th century, that fact would have seriously weakened "ape into human evolution theory" because there is no way to explain how apes, with 24 pairs of chromosomes, could have evolved into humans with 23 pairs of chromosomes. We all know that if we lose a pair of chromosomes, we cannot reproduce."​

How can you adequately evaluate that argument without already knowing that human chromosome 2 has the morphology of two chromosomes merged end-to-end, a fact that is actually considered a smoking gun for confirming the claim that all existing great apes arose from a common ape ancestor? Without that fact, the argument appears sound. That is the problem with saying that the argument should be evaluated on its own merit when its source is known to be disreputable.

Incidentally, does anybody believe that this source isn't knowingly omitting relevant evidence to make a dishonest case? Not that it matters, because ignorance of the fact of human chromosome 2 disqualifies a source contradicting the consensus of the scientific community as quickly as dishonesty, and constitute a second reason not to take one's science from such sources.

But notice once again, the claim is not that the argument is unsound because it comes from such a source, which would be the genetic fallacy, but that the argument isn't even worth considering if the source can't be trusted to be arguing sincerely and in good faith, since a much larger investment in time and energy in reviewing the topic is needed to see what claims are false and which facts have been omitted. The claim is that the untrusted source's argument or claim isn't worth the effort to investigate, which is not a logical fallacy, but a personal judgment.

What I will generally post in response to being offered a link to Answers in Genesis or Old Earth Ministries is a request for the same material from non-creationist site, noting that if the claim is true, it was imported from a legitimate information source that should be acceptable to both of us, and to please cite those sources instead.

The obvious corollary to this is that if the material can only be found on a creationist website, it's probably science fiction, since nothing that is true is known only to creationists.

In the end, saying that one doesn't trust a source and rejects its claims is not a logical fallacy as long as one doesn't go so far as to say that the claim is false before evaluating it.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
What if Smith really IS a liar? It's a simple statement of fact at that point. :)
So Smith is a liar.

But what if the person saying that Smith is a liar is also a known liar?

Who do we believe then?

:eek:
 
I make a distinction - and perhaps you do as well - between dismissing a claim or argument because its source is considered unreliable, and concluding that the claim must be wrong if it came from such a source, only the latter being the informal ad hominem fallacy, the former being sound judgment.

So if somebody with a reputation for lying makes a claim, even if followed by evidence, argument, and conclusion. I feel justified in ignoring it all.

One may offer that the argument should be evaluated on its own merit, but the problem there is that to do that properly, one needs not only to fact check the claims of fact in the argument, which is hardly worth the effort in most cases, but also perform the much more difficult task of trying to identify what evidence has been omitted.

Consider this bit of creationist apologetics from DNA tests prove Darwin Was Wrong - Ape DNA very different from human DNA - Laws of Genetics Contradicts Ape to Human Evolution

"But the fact is, humans actually have 23 pairs of chromosomes while apes have 24 pairs of chromosomes. Apes, gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, etc. all have more chromosomes than humans. During the first half of the 20th century, that fact would have seriously weakened "ape into human evolution theory" because there is no way to explain how apes, with 24 pairs of chromosomes, could have evolved into humans with 23 pairs of chromosomes. We all know that if we lose a pair of chromosomes, we cannot reproduce."​

How can you adequately evaluate that argument without already knowing that human chromosome 2 has the morphology of two chromosomes merged end-to-end, a fact that is actually considered a smoking gun for confirming the claim that all existing great apes arose from a common ape ancestor? Without that fact, the argument appears sound. That is the problem with saying that the argument should be evaluated on its own merit when its source is known to be disreputable.

Incidentally, does anybody believe that this source isn't knowingly omitting relevant evidence to make a dishonest case? Not that it matters, because ignorance of the fact of human chromosome 2 disqualifies a source contradicting the consensus of the scientific community as quickly as dishonesty, and constitute a second reason not to take one's science from such sources.

But notice once again, the claim is not that the argument is unsound because it comes from such a source, which would be the genetic fallacy, but that the argument isn't even worth considering if the source can't be trusted to be arguing sincerely and in good faith, since a much larger investment in time and energy in reviewing the topic is needed to see what claims are false and which facts have been omitted. The claim is that the untrusted source's argument or claim isn't worth the effort to investigate, which is not a logical fallacy, but a personal judgment.

What I will generally post in response to being offered a link to Answers in Genesis or Old Earth Ministries is a request for the same material from non-creationist site, noting that if the claim is true, it was imported from a legitimate information source that should be acceptable to both of us, and to please cite those sources instead.

The obvious corollary to this is that if the material can only be found on a creationist website, it's probably science fiction, since nothing that is true is known only to creationists.

In the end, saying that one doesn't trust a source and rejects its claims is not a logical fallacy as long as one doesn't go so far as to say that the claim is false before evaluating it.

So then is debating pointless? It sounds like it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I was invited to this group for some reason. I've read the description and frankly I want to vomit in my mouth.

I've been dealing with atheists for 25 years online (Yes, ever since the newsgroup era). They are not looking to find answers. They want you dead. They are a manifestation of the end times. They are SGA (socialist globalist atheists).
Do you always greet them with that chipper, friendly demeanour?

"I introduced myself to these people by saying that they make me want to puke, that I figure they all want me dead, and that they've been sent by Satan... but then none of them were nice to me and some were downright unpleasant! I can't explain it except to assume that it's because of some fault with them. I can see no other explanation for why they would respond in kind to me."
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
So if he said atheists can be annoying pedants, it would be neither.
He definitely didn't say that: He said you want him dead, and he said you're a globalist socialist. And not just you, but all atheists.
I should throw in my position of "uhhhh......" that is accompanied by puddles of drool from my mouth to see if I want him dead as well. I might need to stop myself from doing something I otherwise had no knowledge I'd do or any intention of doing.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
He definitely didn't say that: He said you want him dead, and he said you're a globalist socialist. And not just you, but all atheists.
I should throw in my position of "uhhhh......" that is accompanied by puddles of drool from my mouth to see if I want him dead as well. I might need to stop myself from doing something I otherwise had no knowledge I'd do or any intention of doing.
Well, he got a few things very wrong.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
It's still technically libel though, and a reflection of centuries of bigotry that atheists have faced.
What I find rather ironic about stuff like @Egor OP is that he is profoundly wrong about some really obvious things. Then appears miffed that atheists don't take his far less plausible claims of knowledge at all seriously.
Like whatever God myth he believes in.

Tom
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
What I find rather ironic about stuff like @Egor OP is that he is profoundly wrong about some really obvious things. Then appears miffed that atheists don't take his far less plausible claims of knowledge at all seriously.
Like whatever God myth he believes in.

Tom
It's interesting how religion can warp a world view like that. To the OP, his religious views are so 100% correct that he will appear miffed because to his views even the animals know Jehovah is real and sing his praise.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
He definitely didn't say that: He said you want him dead, and he said you're a globalist socialist. And not just you, but all atheists.
I should throw in my position of "uhhhh......" that is accompanied by puddles of drool from my mouth to see if I want him dead as well. I might need to stop myself from doing something I otherwise had no knowledge I'd do or any intention of doing.

I don't want him dead. That's between him and his all-powerful God.
What I do want is dumplings. It's @Revoltingest 's fault. He mentioned them.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
What I find rather ironic about stuff like @Egor OP is that he is profoundly wrong about some really obvious things. Then appears miffed that atheists don't take his far less plausible claims of knowledge at all seriously.
Like whatever God myth he believes in.

Tom

Some people start from a position of being infallibly correct. That does tend to impact on how they relate to people who disagree with their world views.
I'm pretty sure you've experienced the negative side of this once or twice in your life, more's the pity.
 
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