Language, the most lovely evidence of God.

[yourhopeboundheart]

You added emotional assumptions, to the story.
As if God insists upon His own glory.

Struck and confounded the language to halt construction....yes.
He did it for spite?...no.

construction was halted before it began. unless heaven was literally only a few hundred feet up and god was nervous that he didn't have enough napkin holders to accommodate his newly arriving guests. did heaven relocate, since we cant seem to find it even though we've escaped atmo?

Learning the nature of heaven.....by hand made construction?...no.
The people needed something to think about.

oh, i forgot, god HATES investigation.
and seriously, the people of that time had enough to think about without some big invisible sky daddy screwing with the way their words worked.


but like i said, it's irresponsible to accept this as anything more than a myth.

 

[Etritonakin]

True -there are aspects of any language which would still exist in such a pure language -and languages we develop for specific purposes can be pure -even perfect for those purposes -(programming codes/languages, etc..).
The pure language spoken of in the bible would be a universal, spoken/written, etc.. language, however -its main function would be allowing all to serve God with one consent....

I would like to define "serve God" as.... "obey some very simple and basic commandments which allow for everyone to create wonderful things without conflict."

To serve God is not like serving a human master -God does not WANT anyhting FROM us -God WANTS to GIVE us something (and will keep others from taking from us that) which will make US so happy that HE will be happier than ever possible before...and infinitely so... because he wants what is good for us -
and because our infinite creativity without conflict can only be wonderful.

 

[Thief]

construction was halted before it began. unless heaven was literally only a few hundred feet up and god was nervous that he didn't have enough napkin holders to accommodate his newly arriving guests. did heaven relocate, since we cant seem to find it even though we've escaped atmo?

The story I got...They people did believe heaven to be 'in the clouds'.
This would be the misconception that needed to be shut down.


oh, i forgot, god HATES investigation.
and seriously, the people of that time had enough to think about without some big invisible sky daddy screwing with the way their words worked.

God doesn't hate investigation.
All truth in it's own good time.

but like i said, it's irresponsible to accept this as anything more than a myth.

And I might well regard the tower of Babel as a myth.
But that's not the point...now is it?

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

The story I got...They people did believe heaven to be 'in the clouds'.
This would be the misconception that needed to be shut down.

i dont think you're getting my point. if heaven wasn't in the clouds it would have been a concept the people easily realized once they got to the clouds and there was nothing but vaporous masses. it was a simple solution. if a little kid says that his toy car will one day drive him to the moon, you dont smash the car into little pieces to show that it's not true, you just let it play out.

And I might well regard the tower of Babel as a myth.
But that's not the point...now is it?

no, the point is this:

" 5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." "
Genesis 11

god didn't confuse the people's language because he was saving them from a failed construction plan, he did it because it was important for him to keep humans weak.

 

[Etritonakin]

god didn't confuse the people's language because he was saving them from a failed construction plan, he did it because it was important for him to keep humans weak.

"then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

Now that humans are "strong" -and have the ability to translate one language to another almost instantly -we also threaten the very existence of most of the life forms on earth.

I think God was wise to postpone the development of nuclear weapons and the onset of global warming, etc... while he worked out his purpose.

This purpose includes sending his Son to rule on earth just before we completely destroy ourselves -and we will have developed an experience base from which to discern that God's rule is indeed necessary.

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

"then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

Now that humans are "strong" -and have the ability to translate one language to another almost instantly -we also threaten the very existence of most of the life forms on earth.

I think God was wise to postpone the development of nuclear weapons and the onset of global warming, etc... while he worked out his purpose.

if nothing was impossible to these people (which is clearly not true, even if we all spoke the same language throughout all of history we would still have thing holding us back) then they just as easily could have developed a means to feed the entire worlds population, they could have lived in better harmony with the rest of the animal kingdom, they could have developed free and clean energy, gone to space in 1000 b.c.e., cured diseases, and maintained a functionally responsible population. i'm so sure god was reading his copy of the inconvenient truth when he came up with the idea to confound the languages of every person on the planet... come on.

 

[Etritonakin]

COULD HAVE

....but... as God has said of us...

"YOU WOULD NOT"

-and that is exactly my point....

God wants us to be able to create anything we imagine -
when we cease to imagine horrible things....

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

Is that not why their guests gather around?

It is sown in dishonor!

Isa 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
Isa 30:16 But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift. Isa 30:17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.

SHHHHHHHHHHH! INDEED. NEIGHBOR!

Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
Isa 1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.
Isa 1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

SHOULD I BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY?

 

[Thief]

i dont think you're getting my point. if heaven wasn't in the clouds it would have been a concept the people easily realized once they got to the clouds and there was nothing but vaporous masses. it was a simple solution. if a little kid says that his toy car will one day drive him to the moon, you dont smash the car into little pieces to show that it's not true, you just let it play out.



no, the point is this:

" 5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other." "
Genesis 11

god didn't confuse the people's language because he was saving them from a failed construction plan, he did it because it was important for him to keep humans weak.

And you are doing the same as the people who wrote the testimony.
Viewing God's motivation from Man's viewpoint.

Look at it from God's point of view.....yes you can.
Confusing the language would stop the construction...yes.
Give the people something to think about....yes.

If your own speech was suddenly different.....
if the speech of your neighbor was suddenly different....
and the only thing you have in common would be the every day work...

..there is a God?....and the work has offended God?..
and He has power over what we say?
And entry into heaven is by some other means?....yes.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I myself love language. Words and their definition. Communication and the defining of it. Its very powerful and meaningful, it came from God, a very powerful and meaningful individual. It has metaphor. The most fascinating property of language is metaphors. Animals cannot make metaphors, it is by metaphors that language grows. A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, in order to suggest a resemblance. As in " She is the flower of my life." Well she is not a literal flower, but the meaning is understandble.

This is the power and evidence of a God who has introduced this, certainly evolution has no power to introduce this. Absolutely none! A metaphor is always a known metaphier operating on a less known metaphrand. Animals are nowhere near this complexity, because they have nowhere near the consciousness that humans hold. Metaphors increase enormously our powers of perception of the world around us and our understanding of it. It literally creates. Indeed language is an organ of perception and a definte proof of God, not just simply a means of communication.

Its just lovely, and I want to go into this most lovely proof of God. And I will be using some perceptive language to describe it.

Peace.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. While man can communicate with each other it means nothing if you find yourself in another country and can't speak or understand the language. All your normal communication skills are out the window and you may be forced to do what other animals do such as (some sort of motioning or sign language). Speaking of which... sign language is an unspoken and very sophisticated language.

I was in Subway last night ordering food and the lady spoke Spanish. She got my sub just right but when I asked for cookies she seemed confused as to which ones I wanted so I had to revert to hand jesters and point out the ones I wanted and had to hold up my fingers as to the amount.

Now, as far as animals are concerned we may be less sophisticated in our communication. Many of them communicate with hums, chirps, beeps, clicks, grunts, body motion, physical contact or smell and it is transmitted perfectly. Dolphins and Whales have an excellent communication system and is one of the most sophisticated in the world. Elephants are another. Pay attention one day in your neighborhood when you hear various breeds of dogs barking. They're not barking just to be barking...they're actually communicating with each other....and quite well.

You should really pickup a book on the psychology of language instead of tooting your own horn because as special and sophisticated as you want to believe we are I can guarantee you there is an insect or animal out there equally or more sophisticated than we are in their ability to communicate.

I'm not trying to come down hard on you but I beg you to at least start here for a better understanding Animal communication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

SHOULD I BELIEVE DIFFERENTLY?

the world i see when i'm walking around in it is not a beautiful place, but it's not nearly as ugly as the one portrayed in the scriptures.
i dont pretend to know what you should believe, i'm simply suspicious about god's supposed intention with the confounding of human language.
(of course i dont really believe that as a reason for languages being different, i just question the narrative in order to understand it)

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

And you are doing the same as the people who wrote the testimony.
Viewing God's motivation from Man's viewpoint.

Look at it from God's point of view.....yes you can.
Confusing the language would stop the construction...yes.
Give the people something to think about....yes.

i've been chastised before for attempting to view the world through god's eyes. and honestly, if god were a reality, then i would never be able to have a sober grasp of his perspective. the truth is the story gives the appearance of being acted out by a very petty and controlling individual with a limited imagination, not an all powerful, all loving, all knowing god figure.

but i really feel like i'm stepping outside of my element, it's not my place to tell you what your holy book says or even what it sounds like to me. it's none of my business, really.
so we can give it a rest.

 

[BIG D]

babies can't make adult sounds/words...their larynx is in the same position,until a few years later, as monkeys, so they can drink and breathe at the same time...it seems like monkeys and babies cannot communicate as adult humans do...certain monkeys have different sounds for different alarms ..ie--bird,tiger,etc...what do you think of this??

 

[mickiel]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

I like my ideas and what I talk about, and I believe in them.

It satisfys me.

Peace.

 

[AuroraWillow]

I like my ideas and what I talk about, and I believe in them.

It satisfys me.

Peace.

Unfortunately, that's not good enough for a debate.

 

[MW0082]

Unfortunately, that's not good enough for a debate.

forget a debate, what about the lack of reality they are missing......

 

[mickiel]

Unfortunately, that's not good enough for a debate.

Not good enough for you, but it is for me.

Peace.

 

[AuroraWillow]

Not good enough for you, but it is for me.

Peace.

Clearly, you don't understand the concept of debate...

 

[mickiel]

Clearly, you don't understand the concept of debate...

I debate here everyday, and everyday people give their views of my style of debate.

Some like it, some don't, but I am content with it.

I do my best.

Peace.

 

[Copernicus]

I myself love language...It has metaphor. The most fascinating property of language is metaphors...

Speaking as a professional linguist, I am glad to see that you take an interest in the subject of my career. The point you are making about metaphor is actually quite profound. Metaphor--analogical reasoning, actually--is at the heart of language and human cognition. In a sense, the human mind is a vast web of associations between experiences. Metaphor is a core process behind the growth of a mind.

...Animals cannot make metaphors, it is by metaphors that language grows. A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable, in order to suggest a resemblance. As in " She is the flower of my life." Well she is not a literal flower, but the meaning is understandble.

Actually, animal minds probably do not differ from human minds as much as we think. Like us, they must reason by analogy. Their brains also consist of neurons that transmit information through the facilitation or inhibition of electrical discharges. The question of how well, and by what means, animals communicate is very much an empirical question. People, unfortunately, tend to jump to a lot of conclusions on the subject that are grounded in pure ignorance.

This is the power and evidence of a God who has introduced this, certainly evolution has no power to introduce this. Absolutely none!...

This is just plain false. Language evolved as our brains evolved, just like any other physical part of the body. What drove the development of language is pretty obvious from an evolutionary point of view. Given two different species that are equal in all respects except the ability to communicate efficiently, the species that communicates will tend to survive better and produce more offspring. That is how evolution works--through natural selection.

...A metaphor is always a known metaphier operating on a less known metaphrand. Animals are nowhere near this complexity, because they have nowhere near the consciousness that humans hold...

You do realize that you are making words like "metaphier" and "metaphrand" up, don't you? And, not being another kind of animal than the one you are, you are hardly in a position to characterize their level of "consciousness".

Metaphors increase enormously our powers of perception of the world around us and our understanding of it. It literally creates. Indeed language is an organ of perception and a definte proof of God, not just simply a means of communication.

I agree with everything you say here except your idea that this aspect of cognition has anything to do with an undetectable, all-powerful super-being. Other animals have elaborate systems of communication. Birds, for example, can have quite complex bird songs that form different dialects, depending on their upbringing. Human language probably evolved together with our ability to use complex hand and arm gestures. The big advantage of spoken language over gestural communication is that it works in the dark.

Language couldnot have evolved , or Primordal man would have spoken it sometime during his 200,000 year or so existence. Don't you think?...

What I think is that humans and hominids had very complex spoken languages throughout that entire period of time. Apes also have very complex communication systems, but nothing like that which evolved in hominids.

They had no language, because God didnot give it to them, they had no consciousness. If language came from evolution, Primordal man would have surely had it. Their lack of language is absolute proof of God.

Your statement is absolute proof that you do not know what you are talking about here. Spoken language probably has existed since the origin of our species and even well before that. It is not really controversial that language is innate in the human species. Our genetic programming for language evolved just like all the other instinctive traits that exist in other animals.

 

[AuroraWillow]

I debate here everyday, and everyday people give their views of my style of debate.

Some like it, some don't, but I am content with it.

I do my best.

Peace.

Repeating the same position over and over again doesn't qualify as debate.