LDS Beliefs and the Bible (6 Discussions)

[FFH]

FFH, have you read my post here in response to your previous Post about God creating Satan.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1174464-post60.html

Answer me this, why did Jesus say to Judas, just before he betrayed him, "What you must do, do quickly."

Why did Judas do what he did ???

In order for God's purposes to be fulfilled ???

God works "all things for our good".

I've read your post, I just need to step back for a bit, I've got some tax stuff I've got to take care of from 2006, apparently I made some mistakes on my return and I have to go back and file my 2006 return again.

 

[FFH]

Intermission...


YouTube - Amy Grant - We Believe in God

Fast forward to about 5 minutes into this. This is a beautiful song.

Amy Grant - Charity and Love (Ubi Caritas)


Amy Grant - Thy Word

 

[Jeremy Mason]

That's definitely something you get more in depth with in the BoM though. The Bible only has a couple fleeting verses (like the verse in Corintians about the third heaven, and Christ telling the theif he'd be with him in Paradise), but the BoM has chapters and chapters devoted to exactly what happens.

Ok... here my take on why the authors of the NT didn't concern themselves with the aspects of the here-after(sp?).

Romans 10: 5-7 (NIV)
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

The Holy Spirit, through Paul is saying that we are not the judge--God's the judge. If a prophet of God , like Paul, a once high priest in Judaism is saying to avoid the notion of labeling anyone into Heaven or Hell then why o' why should we or ANYONE else. And notice there wasn't a third option in Paul's letter. The third heaven is Heaven. The second heaven is space and the first is the atmosphere. Why would God call Hell a heaven in any capacity? The answer is he wouldn't.

 

[Katzpur]

The third heaven is Heaven. The second heaven is space and the first is the atmosphere.

I've heard people say this before, Jeremy, but I'm trying to figure out how they come to this conclusion. Could you help me out?

Why would God call Hell a heaven in any capacity? The answer is he wouldn't.

You're right, He wouldn't. I'm wondering if you misinterpreted something I said and if that's why you said this. We don't believe that Hell is a part of Heaven or anything like it. Did I mislead you?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I've heard people say this before, Jeremy, but I'm trying to figure out how they come to this conclusion. Could you help me out?

The way I understand the three heavens according to Mormonism is there are three possible areas where people go to once they die. If one is an obedient believer in this lifetime they will go to the third heaven/Heaven. (I have also heard that one needs to be a Mormon to receive this status.) The ones that except Christ in this lifetime but were disobedient in this world; they have a hell that they will go through for 1000 years and then will receive some psuedo-heaven/the second heaven. The ones that are the Hitlers of this world and/or refuse Christ in this "spiritual holding pen" will receive what most non-Mormon Christians refer to as eternal damnation.

I humbly look forward to hearing any and all corrections concerning the Mormons beliefs on this subject.

 

[Aqualung]

Ok... here my take on why the authors of the NT didn't concern themselves with the aspects of the here-after(sp?).

Romans 10: 5-7 (NIV)
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

The Holy Spirit, through Paul is saying that we are not the judge--God's the judge. If a prophet of God , like Paul, a once high priest in Judaism is saying to avoid the notion of labeling anyone into Heaven or Hell then why o' why should we or ANYONE else. And notice there wasn't a third option in Paul's letter. The third heaven is Heaven. The second heaven is space and the first is the atmosphere. Why would God call Hell a heaven in any capacity? The answer is he wouldn't.

And yet, everybody has an interesting in knowing what posiblities lie in front of them. Knowing the possiblities does not necessarily mean judging everybody around ourselves. Why do you think it does?

 

[Aqualung]

The way I understand the three heavens according to Mormonism is there are three possible areas where people go to once they die. If one is an obedient believer in this lifetime they will go to the third heaven/Heaven. (I have also heard that one needs to be a Mormon to receive this status.) The ones that except Christ in this lifetime but were disobedient in this world; they have a hell that they will go through for 1000 years and then will receive some psuedo-heaven/the second heaven. The ones that are the Hitlers of this world and/or refuse Christ in this "spiritual holding pen" will receive what most non-Mormon Christians refer to as eternal damnation.

I humbly look forward to hearing any and all corrections concerning the Mormons beliefs on this subject.

D'oh! I'm still not sure where you got your idea from. Perhaps Katzpur could pick it out from your summary of the LDS beliefs, but I couldn't. Can you explain it a bit more explicitly?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Hello Aqualung.

And yet, everybody has an interesting in knowing what posiblities lie in front of them. Knowing the possiblities does not necessarily mean judging everybody around ourselves. Why do you think it does?

I sorry, I might have not stated my position correctly. There is nothing wrong with knowing the possibilities.

D'oh! I'm still not sure where you got your idea from. Perhaps Katzpur could pick it out from your summary of the LDS beliefs, but I couldn't. Can you explain it a bit more explicitly?

Not really, this is just what I've heard.

 

[FFH]

The way I understand the three heavens according to Mormonism is there are three possible areas where people go to once they die. If one is an obedient believer in this lifetime they will go to the third heaven/Heaven. (I have also heard that one needs to be a Mormon to receive this status.) The ones that except Christ in this lifetime but were disobedient in this world; they have a hell that they will go through for 1000 years and then will receive some psuedo-heaven/the second heaven. The ones that are the Hitlers of this world and/or refuse Christ in this "spiritual holding pen" will receive what most non-Mormon Christians refer to as eternal damnation.

I humbly look forward to hearing any and all corrections concerning the Mormons beliefs on this subject.

Celestial Kingdom ~ Those who have accepted the "fullness" of the Father and his Son Jesus Christ

Terrestrial Kingdom ~ Those who have accepted the Son, but not the "fullness" of the Father

Telestial Kingdom ~ Those who have not accepted the Son, nor the "fullness" of the Father, but have not denied the Holy Ghost.

Those who inherit the Telestial kingdom will not be with Christ during his thousand year reign on earth. They will have to pay for their own sins and will await the "morning of the second resurrection," at the end of the millenium, since they didn't believe in Christ, nor his sacrifice for them.

Outer Darkness ~ These have "put Christ to an open shame" and have "denied the Holy Ghost," once it was given to them. They reject all light, knowlede and truth given to them by the Holy Ghost.

This is a brief explanation, based on the Doctrince and Covenants of the LDS faith.

The "fullness" of the Father's gospel is found here: Doctrine and Covenants


Amy Grant - Thy Word


THY WORD - MICHAEL W. SMITH & AMY GRANT

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Celestial Kingdom ~ Those who have accepted the "fullness" of the Father and his Son Jesus Christ

Terrestrial Kingdom ~ Those who have accepted the Son, but not the "fullness" of the Father

Telestial Kingdom ~ Those who have not accepted the Son, nor the "fullness" of the Father, but have not denied the Holy Ghost.

Those who inherit the Telestial kingdom will not be with Christ during his thousand year reign on earth. They will have to pay for their own sins and will await the "morning of the second resurrection," at the end of the millenium, since they didn't believe in Christ, nor his sacrifice for them.

Outer Darkness ~ These have "put Christ to an open shame" and have "denied the Holy Ghost," once it was given to them. They reject all light, knowlede and truth given to them by the Holy Ghost.

This is a brief explanation, based on the Doctrince and Covenants of the LDS faith.

The "fullness" of the Father's gospel is found here: Doctrine and Covenants


Amy Grant - Thy Word


THY WORD - MICHAEL W. SMITH & AMY GRANT

Thank you for the info.

 

[Sententia]

Celestial Kingdom ~ Those who have accepted the "fullness" of the Father and his Son Jesus Christ

Terrestrial Kingdom ~ Those who have accepted the Son, but not the "fullness" of the Father

Telestial Kingdom ~ Those who have not accepted the Son, nor the "fullness" of the Father, but have not denied the Holy Ghost.

Those who inherit the Telestial kingdom will not be with Christ during his thousand year reign on earth. They will have to pay for their own sins and will await the "morning of the second resurrection," at the end of the millenium, since they didn't believe in Christ, nor his sacrifice for them.

Outer Darkness ~ These have "put Christ to an open shame" and have "denied the Holy Ghost," once it was given to them. They reject all light, knowlede and truth given to them by the Holy Ghost.

This is a brief explanation, based on the Doctrince and Covenants of the LDS faith.

The "fullness" of the Father's gospel is found here: Doctrine and Covenants


Amy Grant - Thy Word


THY WORD - MICHAEL W. SMITH & AMY GRANT

YouTube - Brigham Young - The Holy Spirit and The Truth - Part 1

While I have entirely seperate objections, I did find this guy from brooklyn interesting.

 

[Aqualung]

Hello Aqualung.

Hi, Señor Mason.

I sorry, I might have not stated my position correctly. There is nothing wrong with knowing the possibilities.

Then would you mind restating your position?

 

[Katzpur]

The way I understand the three heavens according to Mormonism is there are three possible areas where people go to once they die. If one is an obedient believer in this lifetime they will go to the third heaven/Heaven. (I have also heard that one needs to be a Mormon to receive this status.) The ones that except Christ in this lifetime but were disobedient in this world; they have a hell that they will go through for 1000 years and then will receive some psuedo-heaven/the second heaven. The ones that are the Hitlers of this world and/or refuse Christ in this "spiritual holding pen" will receive what most non-Mormon Christians refer to as eternal damnation.

Well, to begin with, nobody goes directly to Heaven immediately after death. Instead, the spirit continues to exist as a fully cognizant entity in a state of peace and rest (i.e. Paradise) or a place of mental torment (i.e. the Spirit Prison). They reside in one of these two places until their body is resurrected, and those in the Spirit Prison may be released from that state by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ's Atonement on their behalf.

At the time of the first resurrection, the righteous will be resurrected and will be given an eternal glory commensurate with their faithfulness and obedience to Jesus Christ. They will inherit either the Celestial Kingdom (the place you referred to as the third heaven) or the Terrestrial Kingdom.

In order to be granted the priviledge of spending eternity in the Celestial Kingdom, a person must have lived a good life and must have received the ordinances prescribed by Jesus Christ (this would include baptism by immersion by one holding the proper authority, among other things). People outside of our Church automatically assume that we believe only Mormons will be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom, when in fact there will be many who accept the Restored Gospel in the Spirit World who may have lived their lives as Muslims, Buddhists or even as atheists. If they accept the gospel as it is taught to them in the Spirit World, they will have the same opportunity to live forever in the Celestial Kingdom as people who lived their lives as Mormons. And I'm absolutely positive that no Mormon would ever tell you that all Mormons will attain the Celestial Kingdom. Those who do receive this kingdom will be given the opportunity to continue to progress throughout all eternity, with the promise that they may someday become as God.

The Terrestrial Kingdom is the second and middle degree of glory. Those who accepted Christ's Atonement but were less committed to Him than those who receive the Celestial Kingdom will spend eternity here. This is not a "pseudo-heaven" by any stretch of the imagination. It will be glorious and magnificent beyond imagination. And no one who goes here will have had to spend 1000 years in Hell.

There will be a third group of people who will be resurrected in the Second Resurrection. They are the ones who rejected Jesus Christ's Atonement both in this life and during the time they spent in the Spirit World. They are primarily the people that most Christians would call "wicked" and whom most Christian denominations would say are going to Hell. The scriptures tell us that in the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ. These people will be among those who will ultimately conclude that this is the case, and that they have thrown away every opportunity offered them to accept Him and let Him pay the price for their sins. Since they were so stubborn as to initially reject Him (both in this life and in the Spirit World), they will be forced to spend the duration of His Millennial Reign in the Spirit Prison, suffering the mental torment for their sins that they could have easily avoided. At the end of the thousand years, they will be released from the Spirit Prison and will receive the lowest of the three degrees of heavenly glory, the Telestial Kingdom. This will still be heaven, and it will be infinitely more than most of us would think they deserve. God, however, is merciful and because they have suffered for 1000 years, he will grant them eternity in Heaven.

The only individuals who will not go to Heaven at all are those who commit what the Bible describes as the sin which cannot be forgiven either in this life or the next -- i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. There will not be many such people, as the only way a person is even capable of committing this sin is if he has a perfect knowledge and understanding of God and Christ and, with this knowledge, chooses to reject them. An example of a person that would have potentially had the ability to commit this sin would be the Apostle Peter, in my opinion. Of course, he didn't, but he was in a position in which very few people who have ever lived find themselves. At any rate, these are the Sons of Perdition, and they will spend eternity in Outer Darkness, entirely separated from God and His glory.

I hope that helps straighten out a few things. You were really kind of confused, and it's probably my fault that you were.

 

[Sententia]

Well, to begin with, nobody goes directly to Heaven immediately after death. Instead, the spirit continues to exist as a fully cognizant entity in a state of peace and rest (i.e. Paradise) or a place of mental torment (i.e. the Spirit Prison). They reside in one of these two places until their body is resurrected, and those in the Spirit Prison may be released from that state by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ's Atonement on their behalf.

At the time of the first resurrection, the righteous will be resurrected and will be given an eternal glory commensurate with their faithfulness and obedience to Jesus Christ. They will inherit either the Celestial Kingdom (the place you referred to as the third heaven) or the Terrestrial Kingdom.

In order to be granted the priviledge of spending eternity in the Celestial Kingdom, a person must have lived a good life and must have received the ordinances prescribed the Jesus Christ (this would include baptism by immersion by one holding the proper authority, among other things). People outside of our Church automatically assume that we believe only Mormons will be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom, when in fact there will be many who accept the Restored Gospel in the Spirit World who may have lived their lives as Muslims, Buddhists or even as atheists. If they accept the gospel as it is taught to them in the Spirit World, they will have the same opportunity to live forever in the Celestial Kingdom as people who lived their lives as Mormons. And I'm absolutely positive that no Mormon would ever tell you that all Mormons will attain the Celestial Kingdom. Those who do receive this kingdom will be given the opportunity to continue to progress throughout all eternity, with the promise that they may someday become as God.

The Terrestrial Kingdom is the second and middle degree of glory. Those who accepted Christ's Atonement but were less committed to Him than those who receive the Celestial Kingdom will spend eternity here. This is not a "pseudo-heaven" by any stretch of the imagination. It will be glorious and magnificent beyond imagination. And no one who goes here will have had to spend 1000 years in Hell.

There will be a third group of people who will be resurrected in the Second Resurrection. They are the ones who rejected Jesus Christ's Atonement both in this life and during the time they spent in the Spirit World. They are primarily the people that most Christians would call "wicked" and whom most Christian denominations would say are going to Hell. The scriptures tell us that in the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ. These people will be among those who will ultimately conclude that this is the case, and that they have thrown away every opportunity offered them to accept Him and let Him pay the price for their sins. Since they were so stubborn as to initially reject Him (both in this life and in the Spirit World), they will be forced to spend the duration of His Millennial Reign in the Spirit Prison, suffering the mental torment for their sins that they could have easily avoided. At the end of the thousand years, they will be released from the Spirit Prison and will receive the lowest of the three degrees of heavenly glory, the Telestial Kingdom. This will still be heaven, and it will be infinitely more than most of us would think they deserve. God, however, is merciful and because they have suffered for 1000 years, he will grant them eternity in Heaven.

The only individuals who will not go to Heaven at all are those who commit what the Bible describes as the sin which cannot be forgiven either in this life or the next -- i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. There will not be many such people, as the only way a person is even capable of committing this sin is if he has a perfect knowledge and understanding of God and Christ and, with this knowledge, chooses to reject them. An example of a person that would have potentially had the ability to commit this sin would be the Apostle Peter, in my opinion. Of course, he didn't, but he was in a position in which very few people who have ever lived find themselves. At any rate, these are the Sons of Perdition, and they will spend eternity in Outer Darkness, entirely separated from God and His glory.

I hope that helps straighten out a few things. You were really kind of confused, and it's probably my fault that you were.

Wow. Personally I completely understand now. How does such a belief system affect your everyday life? Do you raise your kids with this enlighenment?

 

[Katzpur]

Wow. Personally I completely understand now.

Well, I doubt that, but whatever...

How does such a belief system affect your everyday life?

It gives me hope for an eternity with my loved ones and with God.

Do you raise your kids with this enlighenment?

Yes. Why would I not?

 

[Sententia]

Well, I doubt that, but whatever...

Just so we understand each other? Do you doubt it because I'm too stupid, can't read or just because I'm not mormon enough? Or are just trying to be mean in general?

It gives me hope for an eternity with my loved ones and with God.

Hope is good thing to have and I hope it works out for you.

 

[Apex]

Just so we understand each other? Do you doubt it because I'm too stupid, can't read or just because I'm not mormon enough? Or are just trying to be mean in general?

I can not speak for her, but I think I know what she means. The majority of your posts towards theists seem to be fairly condescending. They have also given the impression that you consider us to retain sub par thinking skills. So a statement from you saying that you "understand" will most likely be taken as sarcasm.

 

[Sententia]

I can not speak for her, but I think I know what she means. The majority of your posts towards theists seem to be fairly condescending. They have also given the impression that you consider us to retain sub par thinking skills.

Really? To each their own. I have stated my opinion several times and have tried to always make it clear that its IMO or IMHO.

I regard Joseph Smith as a fraud. I. Me. You can believe what you want. I won't judge you because I am not a judge. I'm not god. Neither is the 2008 year old now dead, probably fictional jesus or his made up dad. Ra? No. Personal Gods are a hysterical and laughable concept to me. There is no proof and no evidence. Some chick was trying to get me to buy into some half done bs word print study was THE word print study and if I could just accept that I would see that book of mormon to be true. I have replied that who cares at all... I dont think he wrote the book either... and there is no argument... he dictacted and some folk wrote it down presumably off of 700 lb or more gold plates no one saw and that to this day dont exist. Thats me.

My thoughts. What I think. I think its an obvious fraud. I think its bogus. I think its just ludicrous to dedicate your life to this bunk. What I believe.

Do I come to Utah or whever you happen to live and ask you to hear my thoughts and accept my beliefs? Do I send missionaries across the seas and to every country far and wide to proclaim my word and my beliefs?

Do I come I even come on these boards and make creul remarks about you as a person?

Do I attack you or make general rationalizations about all mormons?

Do I ignore your comments or say your not worth my time?

Do I belittle you?

No I am persecuted for what I believe while you try to defend what you believe while making me out to be satans minion or generally evil.

Your way to deal with me.

Am I not allowed to believe Joe was a con artist? Does my belief in some way hurt you? Because there are hundreds of books and 1000s of websites you can go off and explore which think the way I think and say what I have to say.

Theres more then a million people just like me, that act like me and think like me.

Millions.

Atheists.

Get over your religious selves... we are people too.

 

[Katzpur]

Just so we understand each other? Do you doubt it because I'm too stupid, can't read or just because I'm not mormon enough? Or are just trying to be mean in general?

Boy, you read a lot into that!

I never implied that you're stupid or can't read, did I? If it was any one of the reasons you suggested, I guess it would be because you're "not Mormon enough." I don't think anyone can "completely understand" someone else's belief system after having read a couple of paragraphs. Your post struck me as sarcastic. If I misread you, I apologize.

By the way, I never just try "to be mean in general." If you will read through any of my posts here on RF, it should be pretty clear to you that I treat people pretty much the way they treat me. You've seemed to be extremely beligerant towards the Latter-day Saints, and have ridiculed our beliefs on several occasions. If you were sincere when you said, "Wow! Personally I completely understand now," how, based on what I have seen from you up until now, was I to have known that? In all honesty, I make an effort to get along with everybody on the forum and have many atheist friends here. I may disagree with their lack of belief in a deity, but I don't make a point of telling them that I think they're going to Hell (mostly because that's not what I believe) or to be critical of their lack of belief in any way. If you don't believe me, ask Sunstone, Robtex, Halcyon, Kungfuzed, Nanda, Fluffy, Jay or any of a number of others. To me, the only real difference between theists and atheists is that theists believe in a Higher Power and atheists don't. It has nothing to do with either group being better, smarter, or anything else. I don't see any reason why we can't treat each other with respect and common courtesy. That said, I'm not into having my religion ridiculed and will more than likely continue to respond in a less than gracious way when people choose to do that.

Hope is good thing to have and I hope it works out for you.

For me, it's not just a good thing to have. It's indispensible. My hope in a future that is brighter than the present, by the way, doesn't just pertain to me, but to all of humanity -- including you.

 

[Apex]

Really? To each their own. I have stated my opinion several times and have tried to always make it clear that its IMO or IMHO.

I regard Joseph Smith as a fraud. I. Me. You can believe what you want. I won't judge you because I am not a judge. I'm not god. Neither is the 2008 year old now dead, probably fictional jesus or his made up dad. Ra? No. Personal Gods are a hysterical and laughable concept to me. There is no proof and no evidence. Some chick was trying to get me to buy into some half done bs word print study was THE word print study and if I could just accept that I would see that book of mormon to be true. I have replied that who cares at all... I dont think he wrote the book either... and there is no argument... he dictacted and some folk wrote it down presumably off of 700 lb or more gold plates no one saw and that to this day dont exist. Thats me.

My thoughts. What I think. I think its an obvious fraud. I think its bogus. I think its just ludicrous to dedicate your life to this bunk. What I believe.

Ok, not sure what this has to do with what I said but I have one question for you. What would your thoughts be about someone who said the same thing that you did above, yet replaced "Mormon" with "Atheist"?

Do I come to Utah or whever you happen to live and ask you to hear my thoughts and accept my beliefs? Do I send missionaries across the seas and to every country far and wide to proclaim my word and my beliefs?

I know, how could we have the audacity to want share our beliefs with others! Shame on us for thinking others may be interested as well!</sarcasm>Ok, seriously, should I care if you did? I do not understand why people get so offended over missionaries when all they have to do is simply state they are not interested. Its laughably simple, if you don't want to talk just say so.

Do I come I even come on these boards and make creul remarks about you as a person?

If you make cruel remarks about my personal beliefs, then yes, you do make cruel remarks about me as a person. For it is my personal beliefs that define who I am as person and differentiate me from every other person. But I have yet to see you make any overly offensive remarks. Just the run of the mill "religion is bogus" "Jesus is a fairytale" type of comments. However, these remarks are the ones I was talking about when I said you give the impression that we do not retain thinking skills.

Do I attack you or make general rationalizations about all mormons?

Well you did state that you pretty much consider our religion, and any religion, to be completely bogus and laughable. It doesn't take much to extend that to the adherents.

Do I ignore your comments or say your not worth my time?

Do I belittle you?

Where did this come from?

No I am persecuted for what I believe while you try to defend what you believe while making me out to be satans minion or generally evil.

Where are you persecuted? And where did I make you out to be satan's minion?

Your way to deal with me.

What way?

Am I not allowed to believe Joe was a con artist? Does my belief in some way hurt you? Because there are hundreds of books and 1000s of websites you can go off and explore which think the way I think and say what I have to say.

You can believe what you like. Just don't be surprised at some of the reactions when you begin reciting the trite sayings such as "personal gods are hysterical" etc.

Theres more then a million people just like me, that act like me and think like me.

Millions.

Atheists.

Get over your religious selves... we are people too.

I never said you were not people.