LDS Beliefs and the Bible (6 Discussions)

[Sententia]

Boy, you read a lot into that!

I never implied that you're stupid or can't read, did I? If it was any one of the reasons you suggested, I guess it would be because you're "not Mormon enough." I don't think anyone can "completely understand" someone else's belief system after having read a couple of paragraphs. Your post struck me as sarcastic. If I misread you, I apologize.

By the way, I never just try "to be mean in general." If you will read through any of my posts here on RF, it should be pretty clear to you that I treat people pretty much the way they treat me. You've seemed to be extremely beligerant towards the Latter-day Saints, and have ridiculed our beliefs on several occasions. If you were sincere when you said, "Wow! Personally I completely understand now," how, based on what I have seen from you up until now, was I to have known that? In all honesty, I make an effort to get along with everybody on the forum and have many atheist friends here. I may disagree with their lack of belief in a deity, but I don't make a point of telling them that I think they're going to Hell (mostly because that's not what I believe) or to be critical of their lack of belief in any way. If you don't believe me, ask Sunstone, Robtex, Halcyon, Kungfuzed, Nanda, Fluffy, Jay or any of a number of others. To me, the only real difference between theists and atheists is that theists believe in a Higher Power and atheists don't. It has nothing to do with either group being better, smarter, or anything else. I don't see any reason why we can't treat each other with respect and common courtesy. That said, I'm not into having my religion ridiculed and will more than likely continue to respond in a less than gracious way when people choose to do that.

So you do you still doubt I understand then? Did you not explain it well? I'm not saying I understand you or your beliefs just your post.

For me, it's not just a good thing to have. It's indispensible. My hope in a future that is brighter than the present, by the way, doesn't just pertain to me, but to all of humanity -- including you.

I have hope as well for all of us. I hope that some day everyone will put aside their petty religious differences and try to make the only world we know exists and we know is here better for everyone. Surely a religious belief wouldn't prevent anyone from doing that? And I hope that for everyone as well. Even you.

Your personal beliefs should be exactly that. They should not dictate the laws I abide by, be printed on the money I spend or in any way affect or contradict the freedoms of my beliefs. We shouldn't have people spending as a much money in a minute as it would take to solve an entire countries problems of hunger and abuse. We shouldn't have People flying planes into our buildings to be a martyr in the afterlife. We shouldn't have all this animoisity and hatred!

It drives me insane. Heres an example. Everyone has an IQ. Correct? Some people have high IQs... say 150...Some people have low IQs... say 90. Does having a 90 IQ make your stupider then the person with 150? Logically yes. Does it make the person with 150 IQ better? NO!

You accept jesus and the second testament as fact and live your life by it. I don't. I outright reject it. Does that make your more religious than me? Does it make you better?

Blah... I don't want to argue.

I seriously dont. I believe you can exist and believe what you want while still trying to do some good here. I believe you can believe in jesus and god and still vote for an atheist president. I believe you as an individual can do that. But as a majority... Obviously Im wrong. Today. Barack might become president and there were people who thought we'd never have a black president. We might!!!

Someday maybe we will elect an atheist president. Someday maybe when an atheist spends money he wont have to stare at "In god we Trust" when obviously he doesnt even believe in god so how can we trust him? Just imagine 80% of your country as atheist and your money saying "There is no God" and in latin on the back Illic Est Haud Deus. And when you come to a forum there are more atheists than theists and they are condescending and speak down to you and tell you they dont have time to respond to you. Or your not worth their time. Imagine talking to your boss who is an atheist and trying to tell him your a mormon when 99% of your company is atheist.

Seriously... you people have no idea. We used to be hung! Killed! Drowned, beaten and jailed by people who cant accept that based on the evidence there is no clear reason to accept god or to reject.

After all that. I can walk the mall to today with a shirt that says there is no god and there is a good chance I will live. I may get spit on, sworn at and harassed by police and mall security... but I can wear the shirt.

Thanks god for that right?

Blah... who cares about the atheist anyways? Minorty people not worth the time. Its a numbers game... move on to someone you can convert.... We are just a trick of satan and a good trick at that. We are the mormon's hot dogs when what they really want is steak. We drink coffee and alcohol... We are not fit for your teens to date or to be socializing with.... We are nothing more then confused lost souls and the scum of the earth... what do we know?

 

[Sententia]

Ok, not sure what this has to do with what I said but I have one question for you. What would your thoughts be about someone who said the same thing that you did above, yet replaced "Mormon" with "Atheist"?

I know, how could we have the audacity to want share our beliefs with others! Shame on us for thinking others may be interested as well!</sarcasm>Ok, seriously, should I care if you did? I do not understand why people get so offended over missionaries when all they have to do is simply state they are not interested. Its laughably simple, if you don't want to talk just say so.

If you make cruel remarks about my personal beliefs, then yes, you do make cruel remarks about me as a person. For it is my personal beliefs that define who I am as person and differentiate me from every other person. But I have yet to see you make any overly offensive remarks. Just the run of the mill "religion is bogus" "Jesus is a fairytale" type of comments. However, these remarks are the ones I was talking about when I said you give the impression that we do not retain thinking skills.

Well you did state that you pretty much consider our religion, and any religion, to be completely bogus and laughable. It doesn't take much to extend that to the adherents.

Where did this come from?

Where are you persecuted? And where did I make you out to be satan's minion?

What way?

You can believe what you like. Just don't be surprised at some of the reactions when you begin reciting the trite sayings such as "personal gods are hysterical" etc.

I never said you were not people.

My disowning of your beliefs in no way affects you as a person. If you want to defend yourself as a person because of what you believe in then go ahead.

Do you feel your beliefs are causing you to do harm to others that you somehow have to defend?

Do you believe my beliefs will cause me to infringe on your beliefs and that I will do some kind of harm so you need to attack before I do so?

Should I be jailed or hung for thinking Joseph Smith was a fraud? 50 Lashes Maybe? Because this isn't the 1800s anymore.

I can say God is a fairy tale and Joseph Smith was a fraud. I can believe it. I can proclaim it with a t-shirt. But if you need to attack me and belittle me because of what I believe in then maybe thats the mormon way... Seems to be a common trait.

Then go for it.

Until you kill me I will keep believing what I believe and when I get to your spiritual prison atleast then the god you believe will give me a second chance would... but you here now... cant... Odd. Really.

Let us die and god sort us out. Why do you have to judge and belittle?

Is me saying that I believe Joe is a fraud such and offense to you?

Should I respond the same way because of what you believe?

 

[Katzpur]

I regard Joseph Smith as a fraud.

So do most people.

I won't judge you because I am not a judge.

But you have and you are. You are judging us as naive and unintelligent. We haven't said anything like that about you.

Some chick was trying to get me to buy into some half done bs word print study was THE word print study and if I could just accept that I would see that book of mormon to be true.

You may think wordprint studies are "bs." They are actually highly reliable.

I have replied that who cares at all... I dont think he wrote the book either... and there is no argument... he dictacted and some folk wrote it down presumably off of 700 lb or more gold plates no one saw and that to this day dont exist.

Well, 50 pounds would be more like it, and eleven other people did see and hold them.

I think its an obvious fraud. I think its bogus. I think its just ludicrous to dedicate your life to this bunk.

And you're not judging us, right?

Do I come to Utah or whever you happen to live and ask you to hear my thoughts and accept my beliefs? Do I send missionaries across the seas and to every country far and wide to proclaim my word and my beliefs?

No, but you are pretty vocal about them online, almost to the point of being evangelical.

Do I come I even come on these boards and make creul remarks about you as a person?

If you were to go up to John (a Black person) and say, "Blacks are stupid and crude and lazy," would you expect him to be less offended than if you were to go up to him and say, "John, you're stupid and crude and lazy,"?

Do I attack you or make general rationalizations about all mormons?

Uh... yes.

Do I ignore your comments or say your not worth my time?

No, do I do that to you?

Do I belittle you?

No, just everything I value.

No I am persecuted for what I believe while you try to defend what you believe while making me out to be satans minion or generally evil.

Which Latter-day Saints have persecuted you or made you out to be Satan's minion or generally evil? (Maybe you're getting us mixed up with Evangelical Christians, although that would be pretty hard to do.)

Am I not allowed to believe Joe was a con artist?

You're allowed to believe anything you want.

Does my belief in some way hurt you?

Your belief doesn't; your words do.

Because there are hundreds of books and 1000s of websites you can go off and explore which think the way I think and say what I have to say.

Yes, and about 990 of them have misrepresented our beliefs and distorted our history. Then are hosted by people who hate us, and who have literally made careers out of trying to undermine our faith. How many LDS-hosted websites have you found that exist for the purpose of tearing down someone else's beliefs?

Theres more then a million people just like me, that act like me and think like me.

Okay, so there are 13 million Latter-day Saints in the world, 2 billion Roman Catholics and 1 billions Muslims. Do you hate all of them because a few of them have been rude to you?

Get over your religious selves... we are people too.

You are one angry guy. I'm sorry.

 

[Katzpur]

So you do you still doubt I understand then? Did you not explain it well? I'm not saying I understand you or your beliefs just your post.

Okay. I'm glad I explained that particular doctrine adequately.

I have hope as well for all of us. I hope that some day everyone will put aside their petty religious differences and try to make the only world we know exists and we know is here better for everyone. Surely a religious belief wouldn't prevent anyone from doing that? And I hope that for everyone as well. Even you.

Good. We already agree on something then.

Your personal beliefs should be exactly that. They should not dictate the laws I abide by, be printed on the money I spend or in any way affect or contradict the freedoms of my beliefs. We shouldn't have people spending as a much money in a minute as it would take to solve an entire countries problems of hunger and abuse. We shouldn't have People flying planes into our buildings to be a martyr in the afterlife. We shouldn't have all this animoisity and hatred!

Well, if you'll check back through your posts and mine, I think most of the animosity has been pretty one-sided.

You accept jesus and the second testament as fact and live your life by it. I don't. I outright reject it. Does that make your more religious than me? Does it make you better?

LOL! Well, obviously it makes me more religious, but I have NEVER implied that it makes me better.

Blah... I don't want to argue.

I seriously dont. I believe you can exist and believe what you want while still trying to do some good here. I believe you can believe in jesus and god and still vote for an atheist president. I believe you as an individual can do that. But as a majority... Obviously Im wrong. Today. Barack might become president and there were people who thought we'd never have a black president. We might!!!

Well, I intend to vote for him.

Someday maybe we will elect an atheist president. Someday maybe when an atheist spends money he wont have to stare at "In god we Trust" when obviously he doesnt even believe in god so how can we trust him? Just imagine 80% of your country as atheist and your money saying "There is no God" and in latin on the back Illic Est Haud Deus.

As long as I have money in my pocket, I don't really care what it says on it. I just hope the numbers are big.

And when you come to a forum there are more atheists than theists and they are condescending and speak down to you and tell you they dont have time to respond to you. Or your not worth their time. Imagine talking to your boss who is an atheist and trying to tell him your a mormon when 99% of your company is atheist.

Well, that wouldn't be this forum, would it? There are a lot of atheists and agnostics on this forum, and right now most of the staff is atheist or agnostic.

Seriously... you people have no idea.

You people? Who is "you people"? Anybody who believes in God? And you tell me you don't make generalizations?

Blah... who cares about the atheist anyways? Minorty people not worth the time. Its a numbers game... move on to someone you can convert.... We are just a trick of satan and a good trick at that. We are the mormon's hot dogs when what they really want is steak. We drink coffee and alcohol... We are not fit for your teens to date or to be socializing with.... We are nothing more then confused lost souls and the scum of the earth... what do we know?

Your words, Balance, not ours. You seriously need to get over your hatred. It's eating you alive.

 

[Apex]

So you do you still doubt I understand then? Did you not explain it well? I'm not saying I understand you or your beliefs just your post.



I have hope as well for all of us. I hope that some day everyone will put aside their petty religious differences and try to make the only world we know exists and we know is here better for everyone. Surely a religious belief wouldn't prevent anyone from doing that? And I hope that for everyone as well. Even you.

Your personal beliefs should be exactly that. They should not dictate the laws I abide by, be printed on the money I spend or in any way affect or contradict the freedoms of my beliefs. We shouldn't have people spending as a much money in a minute as it would take to solve an entire countries problems of hunger and abuse. We shouldn't have People flying planes into our buildings to be a martyr in the afterlife. We shouldn't have all this animoisity and hatred!

It drives me insane. Heres an example. Everyone has an IQ. Correct? Some people have high IQs... say 150...Some people have low IQs... say 90. Does having a 90 IQ make your stupider then the person with 150? Logically yes. Does it make the person with 150 IQ better? NO!

You accept jesus and the second testament as fact and live your life by it. I don't. I outright reject it. Does that make your more religious than me? Does it make you better?

Blah... I don't want to argue.

I seriously dont. I believe you can exist and believe what you want while still trying to do some good here. I believe you can believe in jesus and god and still vote for an atheist president. I believe you as an individual can do that. But as a majority... Obviously Im wrong. Today. Barack might become president and there were people who thought we'd never have a black president. We might!!!

Someday maybe we will elect an atheist president. Someday maybe when an atheist spends money he wont have to stare at "In god we Trust" when obviously he doesnt even believe in god so how can we trust him? Just imagine 80% of your country as atheist and your money saying "There is no God" and in latin on the back Illic Est Haud Deus. And when you come to a forum there are more atheists than theists and they are condescending and speak down to you and tell you they dont have time to respond to you. Or your not worth their time. Imagine talking to your boss who is an atheist and trying to tell him your a mormon when 99% of your company is atheist.

Seriously... you people have no idea. We used to be hung! Killed! Drowned, beaten and jailed by people who cant accept that based on the evidence there is no clear reason to accept god or to reject.

After all that. I can walk the mall to today with a shirt that says there is no god and there is a good chance I will live. I may get spit on, sworn at and harassed by police and mall security... but I can wear the shirt.

Thanks god for that right?

Blah... who cares about the atheist anyways? Minorty people not worth the time. Its a numbers game... move on to someone you can convert.... We are just a trick of satan and a good trick at that. We are the mormon's hot dogs when what they really want is steak. We drink coffee and alcohol... We are not fit for your teens to date or to be socializing with.... We are nothing more then confused lost souls and the scum of the earth... what do we know?

Why are you so angry? What did we ever do to you? We are not the ones who have been calling the other persons personal beliefs "hysterical". Yet you act as if we have somehow been attacking you as a person.

 

[Sententia]

So do most people.

But you have and you are. You are judging us as naive and unintelligent. We haven't said anything like that about you.

You may think wordprint studies are "bs." They are actually highly reliable.

Well, 50 pounds would be more like it, and eleven other people did see and hold them.

And you're not judging us, right?

No, but you are pretty vocal about them online, almost to the point of being evangelical.

If you were to go up to John (a Black person) and say, "Blacks are stupid and crude and lazy," would you expect him to be less offended than if you were to go up to him and say, "John, you're stupid and crude and lazy,"?

Uh... yes.

No, do I do that to you?

No, just everything I value.

Which Latter-day Saints have persecuted you or made you out to be Satan's minion or generally evil? (Maybe you're getting us mixed up with Evangelical Christians, although that would be pretty hard to do.)

You're allowed to believe anything you want.

Your belief doesn't; your words do.

Yes, and about 990 of them have misrepresented our beliefs and distorted our history. Then are hosted by people who hate us, and who have literally made careers out of trying to undermine our faith. How many LDS-hosted websites have you found that exist for the purpose of tearing down someone else's beliefs?

Okay, so there are 13 million Latter-day Saints in the world, 2 billion Roman Catholics and 1 billions Muslims. Do you hate all of them because a few of them have been rude to you?

You are one angry guy. I'm sorry.

Read your response... I dont believe in mormonism, god, jospeph smith, golden tablets, angels or demons. I dont believe in satan krishna or ra.

I find the whole concept ludicrous.

For me. If you want to accept and believe it then go ahead. I wont stop you. I wont start churches that say I hate you. I wont burn crosses in your lawn. I wont hang you or seek to harm you in any way.

I will say what I think.

And what I think is there is no proof for anything you believe in. Thus I would not make a nation of people of varying beliefs live by those rules. I would not attack people for their beliefs.

You believe in Joseph Smith. Others that have heard the story and have done similar research come up with a vastly different opinion. To you that means what they believe hurts you.

Thats just silly. Do you believing in Joseph Smith hurt me?

Am I in pain?

Does it offend me?

Not at all. You can have those beliefs. I believe there is no god. You believe the exact opposite and laugh and feel sorry for people who dont accept god. Thats your perogotive.

But it doesnt offend me. I can atleast say and speak my mind which even a 100 years ago I could not. Thats progress.

So make claims that me thinking joe was a fraud equates me to be prejudice against black people. Your wrong. Thats an insult. My best friend Sederick died of leukemia in the hospital next to me I lived through Burkitts through it all. I am still friends with his family and never having a father his dad is probably the closest thing I will ever have. And hes black. You say Im prejudice? You are so hurtful and all I ask is you accept people that have very different beliefs than you rather then try to throw insults at them and belittle them.

We all live on the same dying planet. Instead of saying I will move on and wont have to deal with this mess you can keep believing that and still try to fix what we have here and now.

 

[Katzpur]

Thus I would not make a nation of people of varying beliefs live by those rules. I would not attack people for their beliefs.

Neither would I. I never have and I never will.

You say Im prejudice? You are so hurtful and all I ask is you accept people that have very different beliefs than you rather then try to throw insults at them and belittle them.

I'm saying that it is prejudiced to label an entire group of people -- Black, White, gay, straight, atheist, LDS, Hindu, Buddhist, Democrat, Republican, etc. etc. etc -- as stupid, wicked, unprincipled, unthinking, lazy, uncaring, or anything else. If you tell me that "Mormons are... (followed by any negative adjective)," you are insulting me.

We all live on the same dying planet. Instead of saying I will move on and wont have to deal with this mess you can keep believing that and still try to fix what we have here and now.

I'm really sorry I've been unable to get through to you that we Latter-day Saints don't hate you or think you're evil or anything else. You are so full of anger I can hardly believe it. As a matter of fact, in my three years on this forum, I don't think I've ever met anyone who is so over-the-top hostile towards anyone and everyone who believes differently than he does. I've really said just about all I have to say to you. I've made a sincere effort to treat you with respect and consideration. I don't think my time has been productive in the slightest. Sorry, I won't bother you any more.

 

[Sententia]

Why are you so angry? What did we ever do to you? We are not the ones who have been calling the other persons personal beliefs "hysterical". Yet you act as if we have somehow been attacking you as a person.

Did I say you were hysterical? I find it funny. Does that make me evil?

How do you feel about a non-belief in god? How do you feel about people that think there is no god? What type of morals do you think they have? Would you let your daughter date an atheist? Would you be openly married to an atheist? Do you feel you cant be eternally happy with anyone other than another that shares your beliefs?

What am I angry? You said you have followed my posts and that I am beligerant and condescending... Seriously did you read my posts in context? I am relatively new here so I dont have a ton of posts... But look over all at people who responded to me.

Especially interesting is the attitudes of the Saints!

Scuba pete smacked me around a few times sure... but hes not condescending and evil and nor is he LDS... Illlututututu whatever... yeah hes a pain. Mean sometimes but I really just think hes trying to get his point across and has a little bit of an ego. But LDS in general, on these forums, since I started posting... are basically hateful and condescending... Why can I not just believe Joe Smith was a fraud!!!!?!?!?! What is so wrong with that? Why can I not believe the book of mormons is just a story of a fictional race and a fictional account of a fictional jesus visiting a fictional depection of america? Let me goto my spritual prison. Does that in ANY way affect you?

Its my belief. Im not shoving it down your throat. I find it hysterical to me. I dont know anything about you. Maybe you were brought up mormon and spent 4 years doing missionary work and grew up in a mormon community and rarely associate with non mormons or watch anything not rated G. Fine... Its not hysterical to you. I dont even expect a common ground could be reached between us because we come from too completely different worlds. Does that mean I should belittle and disrespect you?

Should I hang you for your beliefs? Should my community stone you or drown you? Becuase historically atheists dont have a good survival record among theists.... The age of englightment is supposed to be an acceptance of all people regardless of their beliefs. The end of the Aeon as spoken about is revelations is exactly that... Nothing more. Now is the next age. Hopefully one where we either fix the planet we're on or get off before there is no more planet and go somewhere else.

Personally I think people pick on atheists because they are the minorty and its the cool thing to do. Or perhaps it makes them feel rightous. I dunno. Angry? Why am I angry. Lol. Its still punishable by a year in jail for blasphemy in Mass. Still in 2008. (I doubt anyone would enforce it as its an obvious violation of our rights... but without a good lawyer who knows if you encounter a cop who doesnt like you)

Now all the mormons I have met in Real Life have never acted or talked down to or insulted me for my atheistic beliefs. In fact they even invite me over for dinner or to their church. And I have said to them several times what I believe. I have even explains that I could never, ever, accept the joseph smith story the way they presented it and even though they told their kids to go upstairs they still heard me out and my wife as to why we dont believe it. (And my sons were not told to go anywhere). And they still didnt throw us out and still invited us back.

So Im not saying all LDS are bad or mean. But on this forum they come off as more rightous then thou and as Psalms clearly says the rightous themselves will inherit the earth and they will indeed reside forever upon it.

I am sure I am wrong though. Not all LDS on these boards are like that. Im just upset from having to explain myself over and over.

If I took offense for you rejecting my beliefs and say me not believing in god is what defines me in the same way you took offense and if Atheists were the majority then perhaps you would understand.

(Me pretending to be you: How dare you say there is a GOD? What does that say about me? You directly insult me with such proposterous notions... I dont have time for this belief crap.)

Seriously get over it... anyone can believe anything they want so long as it doesnt cause them to infringe on the freedoms of someone else. Do I nail the doors to your place of worship shut? Do I protest in front while your trying to learn to know god? Do I come to your house and teach you about darwin and how atheist believe that when you die nothing happens?

No. Me saying I believe Joseph was a fraud is me. What I believe. You dont have to agree with me and I wont judge you for your beliefs. You feel that you do have to judge me for my beliefs.

 

[Sententia]

Neither would I. I never have and I never will.

I'm saying that it is prejudiced to label an entire group of people -- Black, White, gay, straight, atheist, LDS, Hindu, Buddhist, Democrat, Republican, etc. etc. etc -- as stupid, wicked, unprincipled, unthinking, lazy, uncaring, or anything else. If you tell me that "Mormons are... (followed by any negative adjective)," you are insulting me.

I'm really sorry I've been unable to get through to you that we Latter-day Saints don't hate you or think you're evil or anything else. You are so full of anger I can hardly believe it. As a matter of fact, in my three years on this forum, I don't think I've ever met anyone who is so over-the-top hostile towards anyone and everyone who believes differently than he does. I've really said just about all I have to say to you. I've made a sincere effort to treat you with respect and consideration. I don't think my time has been productive in the slightest. Sorry, I won't bother you any more.

Hey suit yourself. I'm not hostile to you at all.

Understand mormonism and your faith exists because it was introduced in a country that was free and tolerant of alternate beliefs. Yes mormons faced their share of ridicule and probably still do. Do you think atheists dont? Full of anger? Is that what you think now? You cant see me imploring you to drop the religious BS and just accept people as equals in this life and world who dont neccesarily believe the same thing you do. If your right and Im wrong I will goto Spirit Prison... Fine... Perhaps I will repent then. But right now. Right here. Cant you just drop the whole judgement and sarcasm and belittlement and say... your an atheist... cool. I have no problem with that at all. Its a valid belief system and you are free to be an atheist. I may find it funny and sad but if its what you believe then I accept that.

Would you let your daughter or son date an atheist?

 

[Katzpur]

You cant see me imploring you to drop the religious BS and just accept people as equals in this life and world who dont neccesarily believe the same thing you do.... Cant you just drop the whole judgement and sarcasm and belittlement and say... your an atheist... cool. I have no problem with that at all.

You haven't paid attention to a single solitary thing I've said, have you? From my post #119:

"In all honesty, I make an effort to get along with everybody on the forum and have many atheist friends here. I may disagree with their lack of belief in a deity, but I don't make a point of telling them that I think they're going to Hell (mostly because that's not what I believe) or to be critical of their lack of belief in any way. If you don't believe me, ask Sunstone, Robtex, Halcyon, Kungfuzed, Nanda, Fluffy, Jay or any of a number of others. To me, the only real difference between theists and atheists is that theists believe in a Higher Power and atheists don't. It has nothing to do with either group being better, smarter, or anything else."

Would you let your daughter or son date an atheist?

Yes.

Just so that you know... This is the last of your posts I intend to respond to. And no, it's not because I think I'm better than you. It's because I am tired of fighting a losing battle. You win.

 

[FFH]

I think we need another intermission...


FFH - One of These Days


Point Of Grace: Steady On


FFH--if not for Christ


DC Talk - Jesus Is Still Alright With Me

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Well, to begin with, nobody goes directly to Heaven immediately after death. Instead, the spirit continues to exist as a fully cognizant entity in a state of peace and rest (i.e. Paradise) or a place of mental torment (i.e. the Spirit Prison). They reside in one of these two places until their body is resurrected, and those in the Spirit Prison may be released from that state by repenting of their sins and accepting Jesus Christ's Atonement on their behalf.

Again, your version of salvation gives the benefit-of-the-doubt to people who have already died. I find a certain amount of comfort with your representation of the hear-after and there are more as you will see my friend.

At the time of the first resurrection, the righteous will be resurrected and will be given an eternal glory commensurate with their faithfulness and obedience to Jesus Christ. They will inherit either the Celestial Kingdom (the place you referred to as the third heaven) or the Terrestrial Kingdom.

They/the obedient will inherit Celestial Kingdom right?

People outside of our Church automatically assume that we believe only Mormons will be admitted to the Celestial Kingdom, when in fact there will be many who accept the Restored Gospel in the Spirit World who may have lived their lives as Muslims, Buddhists or even as atheists. If they accept the gospel as it is taught to them in the Spirit World, they will have the same opportunity to live forever in the Celestial Kingdom as people who lived their lives as Mormons. And I'm absolutely positive that no Mormon would ever tell you that all Mormons will attain the Celestial Kingdom. Those who do receive this kingdom will be given the opportunity to continue to progress throughout all eternity, with the promise that they may someday become as God.

Thank you for clearing that up. I thought it sounded suspicious.

The Terrestrial Kingdom is the second and middle degree of glory. Those who accepted Christ's Atonement but were less committed to Him than those who receive the Celestial Kingdom will spend eternity here. This is not a "pseudo-heaven" by any stretch of the imagination. It will be glorious and magnificent beyond imagination. And no one who goes here will have had to spend 1000 years in Hell.

Good for them.

There will be a third group of people who will be resurrected in the Second Resurrection. They are the ones who rejected Jesus Christ's Atonement both in this life and during the time they spent in the Spirit World. They are primarily the people that most Christians would call "wicked" and whom most Christian denominations would say are going to Hell. The scriptures tell us that in the end, every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ. These people will be among those who will ultimately conclude that this is the case, and that they have thrown away every opportunity offered them to accept Him and let Him pay the price for their sins. Since they were so stubborn as to initially reject Him (both in this life and in the Spirit World), they will be forced to spend the duration of His Millennial Reign in the Spirit Prison, suffering the mental torment for their sins that they could have easily avoided. At the end of the thousand years, they will be released from the Spirit Prison and will receive the lowest of the three degrees of heavenly glory, the Telestial Kingdom. This will still be heaven, and it will be infinitely more than most of us would think they deserve. God, however, is merciful and because they have suffered for 1000 years, he will grant them eternity in Heaven.

Even these people have light at the end of the tunnel.

The only individuals who will not go to Heaven at all are those who commit what the Bible describes as the sin which cannot be forgiven either in this life or the next -- i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. There will not be many such people, as the only way a person is even capable of committing this sin is if he has a perfect knowledge and understanding of God and Christ and, with this knowledge, chooses to reject them. An example of a person that would have potentially had the ability to commit this sin would be the Apostle Peter, in my opinion. Of course, he didn't, but he was in a position in which very few people who have ever lived find themselves. At any rate, these are the Sons of Perdition, and they will spend eternity in Outer Darkness, entirely separated from God and His glory.

I understand.

I hope that helps straighten out a few things. You were really kind of confused, and it's probably my fault that you were.

I guess I was confused and needed to hear from a "good source" about Mormon beliefs. Your systematic approach to tough Scriptures and the BoM are straightforward and not confusing. RF is lucky to have a good group of Mormons to share their time and beliefs with those who have heard an otherwise unsavory version of their faith. It is with great joy and humility that I get to participate in such eloquent dialog with honest, loving people.

I've studied the Bible with many people on a variety subjects including the here-after. It's my gut level understanding that the Scriptures/Bible describe the relationship between God and man as an earthly experience first and foremost. That while all sin, some apparently repent more than others. It's this obedience and disobedience that God judges us all. Where that line is I don't know. But i do know when I'm doing something wrong. Right and wrong, Heaven and Hell, are things that that Bible speaks about with unwaivering clarity and that's why I see the judgment the way I do.

Thank you again for your time and compassion in sharing something that means so much to "all" people who seek a higher understanding of God. As always, I look forward to further study in the truths of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Hi, Señor Mason.


Then would you mind restating your position?

As I said with Katzpur, I see the three heavens as sky, space and Heaven/Paradise. The Bible, in my view, does not describe a period after death in which one is given a second chance. The second chance is the time when a person decides to turn their life around to God and His commandments in this lifetime.

The parables in the Bible describe a dichotomous relationship to God's mercy and judgment. After reading the Bible several times, I'm left with an unsettling conclusion that wide are the gates to destruction and narrow is the path to righteousness and few find it. The OT prophets had a hard time explaining this to their contemporaries and were often killed as a result of this bitter pill they had to sell.

While I believe this to be true, I'm aware that I hold no monopoly on truth and welcome the thoughts and ideas of people who see things differently.

 

[robtex]

MOD POST: The topic is " LDS Beliefs and the Bible" I would like to ask the posters to please attempt to stay on that topic but if you find tangent ideas from this debate you want to explore feel free to open a thread on it.

 

[Aqualung]

As I said with Katzpur, I see the three heavens as sky, space and Heaven/Paradise. The Bible, in my view, does not describe a period after death in which one is given a second chance. The second chance is the time when a person decides to turn their life around to God and His commandments in this lifetime.

The parables in the Bible describe a dichotomous relationship to God's mercy and judgment. After reading the Bible several times, I'm left with an unsettling conclusion that wide are the gates to destruction and narrow is the path to righteousness and few find it. The OT prophets had a hard time explaining this to their contemporaries and were often killed as a result of this bitter pill they had to sell.

While I believe this to be true, I'm aware that I hold no monopoly on truth and welcome the thoughts and ideas of people who see things differently.

I don't even remember why I asked you that, so I don't know if this answer was helpful.

 

[Katzpur]

The Bible, in my view, does not describe a period after death in which one is given a second chance. The second chance is the time when a person decides to turn their life around to God and His commandments in this lifetime.

But you do believe Christ visited the Spirit Prison during the three days in which His body lay in the tomb, don't you? That much is clearly biblical. What do you believe will be the fate of the billions who lived and died without ever having heard of Jesus Christ? The Spirit World is primarily God's way of making sure that EVERYBODY has a first chance. I think I know you well enough to guess that you don't believe God will damn those who died without an opportunity to hear of Christ to an eternity in Hell. Whatever answer you give, you will have a relatively difficult time finding any really conclusive support for it in the Bible, because the Bible really doesn't have much to say on the issue. We know such people exist, though, so it's an issue that really can't be ignored.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I don't even remember why I asked you that, so I don't know if this answer was helpful.

LOL!

 

[Jeremy Mason]

But you do believe Christ visited the Spirit Prison during the three days in which His body lay in the tomb, don't you? That much is clearly biblical. What do you believe will be the fate of the billions who lived and died without ever having heard of Jesus Christ? The Spirit World is primarily God's way of making sure that EVERYBODY has a first chance. I think I know you well enough to guess that you don't believe God will damn those who died without an opportunity to hear of Christ to an eternity in Hell. Whatever answer you give, you will have a relatively difficult time finding any really conclusive support for it in the Bible, because the Bible really doesn't have much to say on the issue. We know such people exist, though, so it's an issue that really can't be ignored.

While I find all Scripture fascinating, Roman's and James are books that I find close to heart concerning this topic. But for Robtex, we should start "another" thread.

Perhaps a study on Romans would provide us with God's point of view regarding his mercy and judgment. I feel a topic by topic discussion would be best.

 

[Katzpur]

While I find all Scripture fascinating, Roman's and James are books that I find close to heart concerning this topic. But for Robtex, we should start "another" thread.

Perhaps a study on Romans would provide us with God's point of view regarding his mercy and judgment. I feel a topic by topic discussion would be best.

Sounds good to me. Would you like to do the honors?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Sounds good to me. Would you like to do the honors?

The tread is Romans: Chapter 1 (I don't know to link threads)