LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Autodidact]

I'd like to see you PROVE otherwise

Easy, watch.
1. There is no God.
2. Therefore God does not damn anyone.

Therefore God does not damn anyone for gay love.

O.K., your turn.

 

[1tim115]

No, it doesn't work that way. If you want to limit it, it's on you to show that it's bad for anyone else.

In general, I would say that love is a good thing for everyone, and anyone who wants the world to be a better place should want to increase the love in the world.

Heh,
Proponent: I want a new law and it will be good for you.
Opponent: You have to prove the benefit to me first.
Proponent: No, you have to make a case against the new law.
Opponent: Huh? :thud:

 

[Autodidact]

This is good, deferent affectional orientations, questions: is this natural?

Yes.

Should I be forced to accept this as such by a noisy minority?

No. If you don't want to be gay, no one should have the right to make you.

Do religious folks have rights?

Yes. You have the right to believe in and practice your religion freely.

I believe in the concept of social contract, to live in societies demand that we surrender part of our of our liberties and submit to the will of the majority, to the moral standards of the majority,

I thought you were concerned about your rights and your liberty. Yet I see you're willing to sacrifice my rights and my liberty.

there are thing that I believe that are not believe by others, to resolve these problems we have popular consultations,

that is what has happened over there, the majority has defined marriage/matrimony as the union between a man and a woman and the acceptable public moral standards are those expressed by that definition. It makes no difference that is an orientation it is still an unnatural orientation and is no comparable to what proposition 8 reaffirmed, the majority has said so for a second time. I do not follow your sexual orientation and do not wish to be forced by my government obeying to a noisy minority to change it to accommodate you. It’s that simple. You were told, No!:shout

You realize that no one's asking you to change a thing, right?
Anyway, so when the majority changes their mind, as they will, you won't have a problem with that?

 

[Magic Man]

I'd like to see you PROVE otherwise

There's no need to prove otherwise. It's a false claim made to support taking away others' rights. If you want to believe it, you don't have to prove anything. If you want to use it as a reason to disallow gay marriage, then you sure do need to prove it.

If I say that the Mormon religion poisons people's minds to the point that they are destroying our society, so we should ban Mormonism, would it be on me to prove that statement true or would it be on you to prove that it's not?

 

[Autodidact]

Many still believe homosexuality is sin.

Many still believe homosexuality is sin.

Well, many believe that eating pork is a sin, but we don't deny dining rights to pork-eaters.

 

[Autodidact]

No you did not get it, and that is typical of backsliders, I don’t think that you can understand.
Gal 1:10 For now do I persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
I remind you what Jesus said on this subject Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female"
So a servant of Christ must know that “that He who made them at the beginning "made them male and female" Mat 19:5 and said, For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and shall cling to his wife, and the two of them shall be one flesh?
Get it? a man cling to a woman in matrimony not another man, this is what the LDS called its members to remember, the Lord’s words, and call them to act as servants of Christ, they did so, they campaigned and got this rectified and they are acting as true servants in the suffering of their persecution and harassment that followed.
Mat 5:10 Blessed are they who have been persecuted for righteousness sake! For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.

What makes you think we're interested in your scriptures? Since I'm not Christian, this has no relevance to me.

Of course, we all know that the fact that lesbianism is not a sin has no relevance to you, though it should. Odd.

 

[Autodidact]

Hello! Proposition 8 does not ban homosexuality, you can go ahead and knock yourself out, you just cannot marry someone that is of the same as you.

Let's do this, emiliano. Let's make it so you cannot marry, O.K? Then we'll have a nice talk about rights.

 

[Autodidact]

That what I mean, they have the right to their homosexuality, but not to marriage, that one is reserved for the union of men to women.

Yes, that's the problem. Doh.

 

[Autodidact]

Yes, it is.

Sure you do. You have the right to run your own life as you believe. You do not, however have the right to force everyone else to live as you do.

Would you have told women and African-Americans the same thing when they wanted the right to vote the same as you white men? Or would you have denied them because they are not exactly the same as you?

Apparently Green Gaia and I think as one. As a result, I am not permitted to frubal her at this time, so here's a :flower2:.

 

[Autodidact]

Do I have to explain social contract again? That what they've decided. They the majority.

Well, that can always change.

 

[Autodidact]

These organization campaign till the majority agreed, what you want is for the opinion of a minority to be law, that wont happen. It is easier to campaign for racial equality than for a third sex in humans, that for sure, you are entitle to your opinions but minorities are not obeyed in a Democracy, that is the right that you have, voice it and solicit support, it will no became law till the majority will it so.
Like the Governator said, keep trying.

Do you have a learning problem? Homosexuality is not a gender, it's a relationship preference.
I agree, though, the solution is to keep organizing for change. That's just what we're going in this thread.

 

[Magic Man]

Heh,
Proponent: I want a new law and it will be good for you.
Opponent: You have to prove the benefit to me first.
Proponent: No, you have to make a case against the new law.
Opponent: Huh? :thud:

Actually, it's more like this:

Person A: I don't want a new law, I just want the equality promised by the Constitution recognized (as it was before a new law, Prop 8, was brought up).
Person B: But I want a new law banning that equality because of "this".
Person A: Well, then you need to show why "this" is detrimental to society.
Person B: No, you have to show why it's not.
Person A: What?

 

[Magic Man]

Everyboy is mad but me!

Well, you got your way. Why would you be angry? However, if it was you being denied your rights, I'd be willing to bet you'd be a little upset, too.

Your opinion lost live with it.

Fine, just remember that when your religion is banned because your opinion lost. Oh no, wait a minute. That's right, you'd be the first to go off over your rights being taken away. So, you might want to change your tune and your tone a little before it comes back to bite you.

 

[Autodidact]

Heh,
Proponent: I want a new law and it will be good for you.
Opponent: You have to prove the benefit to me first.
Proponent: No, you have to make a case against the new law.
Opponent: Huh? :thud:

No, actually, Proposition 8 is a proposed new law, so its proponents need to demonstrate its enefit, according to you.

 

[Evandr]

Your interpretation and your personal religious view of god says what?

Homosexuality is an abomination before God because He set up the plan and homosexuality severly hinders that plan and for the individual that hinderance is terminal.

Are others not entitled to their own contradicting religious and personal view in your country?

Absolutely, I never said anything to the contrary. We really need to get out of the religious arena with this topic because, although my views are born of religious belief they are also well though out values that are hinged on common sense and which history has vindicated. The issue itself is purely social and current policy is born of social vote and opinion. Throwing stones at the source of that opinion is mindlessly unfair, we all have sources from which we derive our opinions and they're not always exclusively religious.

Sure mormons may think its wrong but does america?

You cannot attach the ends of that question to America as a whole because there are varying degrees of social acceptance that cover the entire nation. Overall I would say that the voter has spoken and if we are to be successful as a nation we must comply. If the time ever comes that the voter gives a thumbs up to homosexuality being afforded the same social status as a heterosexual marriage then I will have to afford the same even though I may not like it. What I won’t do is scream and holler and stomp my feet in fits of anger, calling anybody with contrary points of view sickeningly indignant and shamelessly insensitive clods as I have been accused of being.

Again where is the empathy or humilty? You presume to know the mind of god and enforce it on others and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong because they dont know god and gods will like you know and understand it?

You keep acting as though I am alone and have some power over you when, in fact, I do not. Our laws are designed to serve and protect but there is more to serve and protect than gay rights. As a society the voters (silent majoprity) believe that catering to gay rights would be far too costly, otherwise, why should we care one way or another. The ramifications of that statment are too grand an issue so don't expect a simple answer. You simply have to accept the law until you can manage to get it changed. In the meantime try to stop spewing venom at anyone with an opinion that is contrary to yours and not as narrow.

You can hate me now.

I don't hate anybody, I hate offending God and that is what you are asking me to do by supporting what has been dubbed "gay rights". The two concepts are contradictory

You keep saying that I am trying to force something on you. How do you figure that I can force anything on you, what you do is your business and what I do is mine but there is a point where our paths will have to crosws as members of a society wherein each has a say and the right to say it. What it boils down to is this, Temporally we are only held accountable for how we act but on a spiritual plane the messages we send will also be held up to judgment. If something is part of my core values then sending messages that are contrary to them is sending a message that my core values have no real meaning to me. That makes me wishy-washy and of little value to any society including the Lord's.

What you are asking me to do is to offend the Lord by sending a message with my vote and my words that the desires of man are more important to me than the commandments of God.

Just whom do you think you are to ask me to do that? What gives you the right to expect me to fall in line with you and yours lest I be accused of being insensitive and only a little higher than vermin?

As a father I rarely gave in to the anguished tantrums of spoiled children and I am quite sure that on this issue neither will our Heavenly Father, there is simply too much at steak.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What you are asking me to do is to offend the Lord by sending a message with my vote and my words that the desires of man are more important to me than the commandments of God.

Just whom do you think you are to ask me to do that? What gives you the right to expect me to fall in line with you and yours lest I be accused of being insensitive and only a little higher than vermin?

There are many people on the opposite side of the issue that believe that this is precisely what you're asking them to do.

 

[Magic Man]

Just whom do you think you are to ask me to do that?

I know it's nitpicking, but it's "who" in this case.

As a father I rarely gave in to the anguished tantrums of spoiled children and I am quite sure that on this issue neither will our Heavenly Father, there is simply too much at steak.

Ah, I do so love it when homosexuals and the supporters of gay rights are characterized as spoiled children throwing tantrums. It definitely shows an unbiased view of the situation.

 

[emiliano]

No. The majority of white males never agreed (voted) to give women and blacks the right to vote. The court system and Congress did.

Third sex? Are you trying to be purposefully ignorant and offensive?

I suggest you read up on our democratic republic, sir. It DOES protect the rights of minorities from the willful tyranny of the majority. The founding fathers did this purposefully.

It’s a well known fact that in a democratic society we elect our tyrants in exchange for a number of benefits, congress are just that, a group of people that take the peoples will to a meeting, they are elected to represent the majority will, direct governance is impossible, government cannot fallow the will of a minority, it must represent the majority that elected them. It’s just like I said you where told not now, democracy gives you the right to try again. I live in the real world and that is the way it is.

 

[emiliano]

No, actually, Proposition 8 is a proposed new law, so its proponents need to demonstrate its enefit, according to you.

They already did that, sooooo.
People, people the hose crossed the line already, it's a done deal, it’s game over ladies, gentlemen and those in between.

 

[Sententia]

Homosexuality is an abomination before God because He set up the plan and homosexuality severly hinders that plan and for the individual that hinderance is terminal.

That is what you believe in your religion. In many religions they believe in a completely different version of god and they are americans too. Their god allows and loves homosexuals it is not considered an abomination.

Then you have atheist and agnostics who disagree that you can know god exists let alone know what his plan is or what he thinks of our marital behaviors.

You presume to know your god and his will. You assume your religion is the correct one and all others are false and thus argue americans who are atheists or of other religions must live their lives according to your religious views which they do not accept. And you wish to use police and the american court system to enforce your belief onto others.

You are wrong. In america we seperate church and state and do not enforce religious beliefs through secular means.

Absolutely, I never said anything to the contrary. We really need to get out of the religious arena with this topic because, although my views are born of religious belief they are also well though out values that are hinged on common sense and which history has vindicated.

Your only posited stance against this has been god said its wrong and you are not going to jeapardize your eternal afterlife fairy tale story to respect equality in america.

If the time ever comes that the voter gives a thumbs up to homosexuality being afforded the same social status as a heterosexual marriage then I will have to afford the same even though I may not like it.

Which they have in 2 of the 50 states in the US. Based solely on our defined equality everyone is equal and to be granted equal rights by the same name in every state without regard to sex.

Our laws are designed to serve and protect but there is more to serve and protect than gay rights. As a society the voters (silent majoprity) believe that catering to gay rights would be far too costly,

It is not catering. It is treating everyone equally and fairly. Under your argument we could outlaw mormonism and just about every other religion as they are costing our society millions of dollars of revenue due to their tax exempt status. (Thus its too costly)

I hate offending God and that is what you are asking me to do by supporting what has been dubbed "gay rights". The two concepts are contradictory

Your church does not have to accept it but as a country and as an american we believe in equality. Why do you think a person should not have the same opportunities as you? Why do you want to define them as a citizen without the same rights as you? How is that american?

Temporally we are only held accountable for how we act but on a spiritual plane the messages we send will also be held up to judgment.

Your again invoking your religious beliefs to justify your message of hate. You must respect the beliefs of others if you want them to respect yours.

What you are asking me to do is to offend the Lord by sending a message with my vote and my words that the desires of man are more important to me than the commandments of God.

This country is not ruled by god. Our country is defined on the principle of equality and no matter how many times you use god or quote scripture you are debating the equality of another american.

Just whom do you think you are to ask me to do that? What gives you the right to expect me to fall in line with you and yours lest I be accused of being insensitive and only a little higher than vermin?

We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. Who am I to ask you to accept the equal rights of another american? I am an american and a citizen who believes in our country and not your church or your god. I believe you have the rights to your beliefs just as strongly as I believe another is entitled to theirs. I believe in equality and that we are all equal and are to be treated as such.