LDS letter on same-sex marriage

[Evandr]

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There are many people on the opposite side of the issue that believe that this is precisely what you're asking them to do.

Fair enough, so what do we do? There is only one answer - use the political system to shape national and community policy and do it with a bit of dignity. We may find it difficult to respect each other in the heat of debate but we should try to respect the system that shapes our public policy. All that has been said in this thread really hasn't changed anything, the political system will go on as usual and when there is enough support for gay rights that the opposition can't overwhelm it then it will gain the recognition it desires. Until then we will simply have to accept that we are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue and leave it at that.

 

[Green Gaia]

It’s a well known fact that in a democratic society we elect our tyrants in exchange for a number of benefits, congress are just that, a group of people that take the peoples will to a meeting, they are elected to represent the majority will, direct governance is impossible, government cannot fallow the will of a minority, it must represent the majority that elected them. It’s just like I said you where told not now, democracy gives you the right to try again. I live in the real world and that is the way it is.

Really?? You live in the real world?? Yet you think my government should deny me equal rights based on your religion's ancient superstitions??

Again, you need to educate yourself on how minority rights are gained in democratic republic. It is not from a majority vote. Minority rights should not be voted on by the majority. Again, if that were so that the majority decided who got rights and who didn't, women and African Americans still may not have the right to vote in certain parts of this country.

 

[Green Gaia]

Fair enough, so what do we do? There is only one answer - use the political system to shape national and community policy and do it with a bit of dignity. We may find it difficult to respect each other in the heat of debate but we should try to respect the system that shapes our public policy. All that has been said in this thread really hasn't changed anything, the political system will go on as usual and when there is enough support for gay rights that the opposition can't overwhelm it then it will gain the recognition it desires. Until then we will simply have to accept that we are on opposite sides of the fence on this issue and leave it at that.

Sit back and wait..... ?? That's easy for you to say. You already have the right to marry the person you love.

 

[Evandr]

I know it's nitpicking, but it's "who" in this case.
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Blame my spell checker

Ah, I do so love it when homosexuals and the supporters of gay rights are characterized as spoiled children throwing tantrums. It definitely shows an unbiased view of the situation.

It's a common analogy depicting someone who looses a dignified stance when they loose a contest of one sort or another. I will admit to some degree of guilt myself but hey, how boring would life be without a little passion for the issues. About being biased, just what did you expect? Bias is the driving force behind the contention on both sides of the issue, certainly there is bias but as I said earlier, I believe that someday the shoe will be on the other foot and the spoiled tantrums will continue, only from a different crowd.

 

[emiliano]

Do you have a learning problem? Homosexuality is not a gender, it's a relationship preference.
I agree, though, the solution is to keep organizing for change. That's just what we're going in this thread.

Your opinion, mine is that it is mental illness, but as you know the majority decided that it is not and I have to accept it, I think that a person that sees himself/herself/itself having a preference contrary to what nature says, it is mentally ill, but that is just my opinion, besides I had enough troubles teaching the bird and the bees thing to my daughters to have to deal with explaining your lot's preferences to my grandchildren. So I stay with the good ole definition of marriage thank you very much, you are certainly a weird lot.

 

[Green Gaia]

Your opinion, mine is that it is mental illness, but as you know the majority decided that it is not and I have to accept it, I think that a person that sees himself/herself/itself having a preference contrary to what nature says, it is mentally ill, but that is just my opinion, besides I had enough troubles teaching the bird and the bees thing to my daughters to have to deal with explaining your lot's preferences to my grandchildren. So I stay with the good ole definition of marriage thank you very much, you are certainly a weird lot.

Now I think you are just trying to be purposefully offensive. I feel sorry for you that you feel you have to belittle others to make yourself look better.

 

[emiliano]

Really?? You live in the real world?? Yet you think my government should deny me equal rights based on your religion's ancient superstitions??

Again, you need to educate yourself on how minority rights are gained in democratic republic. It is not from a majority vote. Minority rights should not be voted on by the majority. Again, if that were so that the majority decided who got rights and who didn't, women and African Americans still may not have the right to vote in certain parts of this country.

Not in this planet it does not happen. You want to used the word marriage to define this aberration, it was widely debated and a conclusion reached, you were basing your so called right in what the constitution doesn’t say and that is the problem with your argument, proposition 22 set it clear, the supreme court decided that they knew what was in the mind of those that wrote the constitution at that time, the majority of people disputed this and a popular consultation was called to resolve the impasse, I don’t need to tell what was in the mind of the majority of voters as you know the result of that, in religion marriage is a sacrament not a right, call your union something else that is more descriptive of it, explain your reason and ask the judicial system to learnt it and apply it. No body is stopping you from continuing an your marry ways, I couldn’t care less, just don’t call them marriage and don’t compare them to marriages. Who gave them the right? A majority in a plebiscite, the social contract that all civilised societies adhere to.

 

[Green Gaia]

Not in this planet it does not happen. You want to used the word marriage to define this aberration, it was widely debated and a conclusion reached, you were basing your so called right in what the constitution doesn’t say and that is the problem with your argument, proposition 22 set it clear, the supreme court decided that they knew what was in the mind of those that wrote the constitution at that time, the majority of people disputed this and a popular consultation was called to resolve the impasse, I don’t need to tell what was in the mind of the majority of voters as you know the result of that, in religion marriage is a sacrament not a right, call your union something else that is more descriptive of it, explain your reason and ask the judicial system to learnt it and apply it. No body is stopping you from continuing an your marry ways, I couldn’t care less, just don’t call them marriage and don’t compare them to marriages. Who gave them the right? A majority in a plebiscite, the social contract that all civilised societies adhere to.

Are you even reading my posts or just copying and pasting anti-gay rhetoric from elsewhere?

 

[Father Heathen]

A little less God!!
It is the throwing God out of our system that is crumbling our society as it is. Our forefathers understood this all too well; it is the reason that God and references to God are so pervasive in every corner of our social system including the courts and public buildings and art, our money, and every other aspect of our government. Our country began strong because of the values associated with God, regardless of the multitude of religions that were present.

History disagrees: Is America a Christian Nation?

 

[emiliano]

Now I think you are just trying to be purposefully offensive. I feel sorry for you that you feel you have to belittle others to make yourself look better.

I just gave you my honest opinion, and I really pity gays, they are not been helped with their problems, just exploited.
You gave me your opinions, didn't you?

 

[Father Heathen]

I just gave you my honest opinion, and I really pity gays, they are not been helped with their problems, just exploited.
You gave me your opinions, didn't you?

And I really pity christian fundamentalists, who lack rational, independent thought.

 

[Green Gaia]

I just gave you my honest opinion, and I really pity gays, they are not been helped with their problems, just exploited.
You gave me your opinions, didn't you?

Yes, but I don't recall claiming you had a mental illness or were an aberration. If you can't be civil, there's no point to this. And I don't need your pity, I would like your honest understanding, but I'm don't holding my breath.

 

[emiliano]

Yes, but I don't recall claiming you had a mental illness or were an aberration. If you can't be civil, there's no point to this. And I don't need your pity, I would like your honest understanding, but I'm don't holding my breath.

Well this debate is over for now anyway, so I agree it time to move on, one last thing I told you that I have to acept the mojority decision that is not a mental illnes, sooooooo! And honestly you are too strange for me to understand you and your preferences.

 

[Green Gaia]

Well this debate is over for now anyway, so I agree it time to move on, one last thing I told you that I have to acept the mojority decision that is not a mental illnes, sooooooo! And honestly you are too strange for me to understand you and your preferences.

Well, it's not as if you actually tried to understand or anything...

 

[gnomon]

No, the gay life style, from an eternal perspective, is much more dangerous. These things only kill the body, being found guilty of that which is an abomination in the eyes of God stops eternal forward progression - that's why it is called being "Damned"

I'd like to see you PROVE otherwise

Considering that an eternal perspective would require one to be immortal then it is rather apparent that Evandr, or anyone else on this forum, can possibly possess an eternal perspective.

That only leaves divine guidance.

Some state divine guidance damning homosexuality.
Others state divine guidance not damning homosexuality.
Neither can prove their case.....unless someone thinks they actually can prove the existence of their divinity.....so I think its best to establish that the line of argumentation of damning or not damning homosexuals is completely worthless.

 

[emiliano]

And I really pity christian fundamentalists, who lack rational, independent thought.

Look who's writing, independent thoughts ? Have you ever have an independent thought?
He pities!

 

[gnomon]

And there we have, science is over-rated, but in all honesty they do the best they can, they have designed a diagnostic tool that gets it right more times than it get it wrong. They are good but not perfect. I thought that this is the normal practice “to delay surgery till after puberty” and that it was done long time ago, is surgery still practiced on children? About God responsibility, most birth defects are traced to environmental changes, what we have put into the ground and get into our bodies by what we eat, touch or inhale, at present the earth is nothing like it was at it creation.

Did you even read the information from the ISNA?

 

[Sunstone]

Yes, but I don't recall claiming you had a mental illness or were an aberration. If you can't be civil, there's no point to this. And I don't need your pity, I would like your honest understanding, but I'm don't holding my breath.

So far as I know, there isn't any evidence that homosexuals are less proficient thinkers than the rest of us. However, there is some evidence that authoritarians are less proficient thinkers than the rest of us -- and there seems to be a mild correlation between authoritarians and folks who oppose gay rights.

 

[gnomon]

Homosexuality is an abomination before God because He set up the plan and homosexuality severly hinders that plan and for the individual that hinderance is terminal.

Then God didn't do a very good job.

Absolutely, I never said anything to the contrary. We really need to get out of the religious arena with this topic because, although my views are born of religious belief they are also well though out values that are hinged on common sense and which history has vindicated. The issue itself is purely social and current policy is born of social vote and opinion.

An actual stated non-religious reason as to the value of not allowing marriage equality would sound better.

Our laws are designed to serve and protect but there is more to serve and protect than gay rights.

The police and other public service employees serve and protect. Law is primary punitive or designed to govern contracts.

You know what's coming next.

Is heterosexuality a lifestyle?

 

[darkendless]

Look who's writing, independent thoughts ? Have you ever have an independent thought?
He pities!

FH can think for himself, he doesn't need God or a 2000 year old fairy tale to make decisions for himself.
As always Emiliano you dodge any serious opposition to your position with an insult or something totally irrelevant.