Leftie Students Are Completely Silent on the Bigotry of Islam

[Quintessence]

@icehorse - the data also support other claims and perspectives that contradict your own. I get it - you have your agenda. I'm not a fan of your agenda. But at you (usually) present it in an articulate fashion, unlike the OP... which was a load of utter garbage. I can't even take the OP seriously with the butchering of the English language going on there. It's hard to tell what they're even going on about.

 

[LuisDantas]

You're not making sense.

If you say so.

 

[icehorse]

Given that my comment you jumped in on wasn't directed at you, I'm not sure what your point is?

You're having parallel discussions with several posters on this thread. I responded to a comment you directed at me

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

You're having parallel discussions with several posters on this thread. I responded to a comment you directed at me

No. You didn't. You jumped in on a comment chain I was having with Luis. Follow the comment links from your own posts if you're lost.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

If you say so.

Anyway, feel free to apologise just any time.

 

[LuisDantas]

Anyway, feel free to apologise just any time.

Sure. Whenever you give me a reason to.

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse - the data also support other claims and perspectives that contradict your own. I get it - you have your agenda. I'm not a fan of your agenda. But at you (usually) present it in an articulate fashion, unlike the OP... which was a load of utter garbage. I can't even take the OP seriously with the butchering of the English language going on there. It's hard to tell what they're even going on about.

I would agree that many conclusions could be drawn from this large survey, but I think my specific claim (that at least half of the world's Muslims want Sharia), would be hard to refute.

And thanks for the "articulate" props

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Sure. Whenever you give me a reason to.

The wrongful attack yesterday would be reason enough for most decent people, but whatever. Your conscience is yours to live with.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

I would agree that many conclusions could be drawn from this large survey, but I think my specific claim (that at least half of the world's Muslims want Sharia), would be hard to refute.

And thanks for the "articulate" props

Hard to support, too. Also blatantly misleading without appropriate comparisons with other religions.

 

[metis]

I would agree that many conclusions could be drawn from this large survey, but I think my specific claim (that at least half of the world's Muslims want Sharia), would be hard to refute.

In Islam, shari'a only can be applied to a jurisdiction that is mainly Muslim. When we had some cities here in the States take stances against shari'a, it was an exercise in mind-numbing stupidity and bigotry.

 

[icehorse]

Hard to support, too. Also blatantly misleading without appropriate comparisons with other religions.

One last time I will assume you are conversing in good faith, although it's getting harder and harder for me to remain optimistic as to your intentions.

I DID review the thread and I'm pretty sure I was responding to a comment you directed at me.

No. You didn't. You jumped in on a comment chain I was having with Luis. Follow the comment links from your own posts if you're lost.

One last time I will assume you are conversing in good faith, although it's getting harder and harder for me to remain optimistic as to your intentions.

I DID review the thread and I'm pretty sure this is how it goes:

your post #89 directly quoted me.
my post #97 was a response to your post #89

and so on.

 

[icehorse]

Hard to support, too. Also blatantly misleading without appropriate comparisons with other religions.

Did you even glance at the survey I googled for you? If anything I'm being very conservative when I say 50% of Muslims want Sharia.

And why on earth would I need to compare this stat to other religions?

 

[icehorse]

In Islam, shari'a only can be applied to a jurisdiction that is mainly Muslim. When we had some cities here in the States take stances against shari'a, it was an exercise in mind-numbing stupidity and bigotry.

I agree that some Muslims interpret Islam as you suggest. But "jurisdiction" is an ambiguous term. It could apply at the neighborhood level or the city level or the country level. In the West there are many examples of Muslims implementing aspects of Sharia at the neighborhood level.

 

[metis]

In the West there are many examples of Muslims implementing aspects of Sharia at the neighborhood level.

Which in this case would only apply to Muslims, much like halacha (Jewish Law) only applies to Jews in a similar circumstance.

Secondly, religious law does not trump secular law in a secular country. [why did I use the word "trump"-- I'm so depressed ]

 

[icehorse]

Which in this case would only apply to Muslims, much like halacha (Jewish Law) only applies to Jews in a similar circumstance.

Secondly, religious law does not trump secular law in a secular country. [why did I use the word "trump"-- I'm so depressed ]

If I understand you correctly, I agree that Muslims aren't the only faith group that implement religious laws - under the radar - at the community level.

But technically, whenever a faith group does this, the implication is that in those instances, they are taking some aspects of the law into their own hands, and - ugh - "trumping" the secular law.

 

[metis]

But technically, whenever a faith group does this, the implication is that in those instances, they are taking some aspects of the law into their own hands, and - ugh - "trumping" the secular law.

That's not how its done here or in any non-Muslim countries that I know of.

We have a large Muslim community where I live near Detroit and Dearborn, so we get to see how it actually works in reality. Like with observant Jews, they must follow religious law but not if that law violates national, state, or local laws. If there's a conflict, then these cases go to local, state, or federal courts, which can then be reviewed through appeal.

No country that I know of is going to allow a religious groups to violate local, state, or national laws, and our history here is full of such cases historically, such as we saw with the issue of polygamy with the Mormons many decades ago. However, there are some cases whereas certain secular laws were overruled as being unconstitutional, thus ruling in favor of the religion/denomination.

 

[icehorse]

That's not how its done here or in any non-Muslim countries that I know of.

We have a large Muslim community where I live near Detroit and Dearborn, so we get to see how it actually works in reality. Like with observant Jews, they must follow religious law but not if that law violates national, state, or local laws. If there's a conflict, then these cases go to local, state, or federal courts, which can then be reviewed through appeal.

No country that I know of is going to allow a religious groups to violate local, state, or national laws, and our history here is full of such cases historically, such as we saw with the issue of polygamy with the Mormons many decades ago. However, there are some cases whereas certain secular laws were overruled as being unconstitutional, thus ruling in favor of the religion/denomination.

Under the radar Sharia courts are springing up all over the West.

As for your last point, I have no issue with a group of religious people working to improve a country's legal system, as long as they're doing it openly and as long as they're not trying to undermine the country's constitution. Legal systems evolve all the time.

 

[metis]

As for your last point, I have no issue with a group of religious people working to improve a country's legal system, as long as they're doing it openly and as long as they're not trying to undermine the country's constitution.

I have seen no evidence that they are, and I've been involved with the Muslim community for over 40 years as a member of our interfaith consul. Logically, there is no way in hell a secular government is going to allow a Muslim community to take charge over the law, especially since that would violate the 1st Amendment.

Frankly, my impression is that someone is handing you a batch of garbage, and you can find plenty of that on right-wing radio and t.v..

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Under the radar Sharia courts are springing up all over the West.

Only for Muslims who voluntarily want to use them. Find me a single verifiable example of a non Muslim being forced to abide by Sharia law in a nominally western country without the protection of that country's actual legal system, and I promise I will share your outrage. Until that time, the much pundit cited "sharia courts in Western countries" are of no more concern than rabbinical courts or Cannon law courts, or other voluntary uses of traditional law.

 

[icehorse]

I have seen no evidence that they are, and I've been involved with the Muslim community for over 40 years as a member of our interfaith consul. Logically, there is no way in hell a secular government is going to allow a Muslim community to take charge over the law, especially since that would violate the 1st Amendment.

Frankly, my impression is that someone is handing you a batch of garbage, and you can find plenty of that on right-wing radio and t.v..

If I'm understanding you, your direct experience is at a local level, correct? I'm glad to hear that things are working as they should in your neck of the woods. Of course that doesn't prove anything either way in other parts of the West. And as far as the government "allowing", as I said, I'm talking about under-the-radar Sharia courts.

As for "right-wing radio and tv", I'm a centrist. IMO, journalism has been besmirched from both the far right AND the far left. If your implication is that anyone who criticizes Islam is far right, then that's a form of identity politics on your part. I'm a centrist and I think Islam is a horrible set of ideas.