• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Let's Present Some Evidence ...

F

Fatihah

Well-Known Member
averageJOE said:
So Allah has a noncreated exsistance?? So, how did he come to be?

Source?
Click to expand...
Response: He never came to be. He always existed. We know so through the prophet Muhammad by the miracle he left, which is the qur'an.
In the qur'an we read:

In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted. For this is a test which proves that the qur'an is within itself supernatural because it is humanly impossible for anyone to produce a chapter like it. And since it is humanly impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an, then the creator of the qur'an must be supernatural, and that supernatural being is none other than Allah. You disagree? Then the challenge still stands. Produce a chapter like it.
 
Last edited:
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
atotalstranger said:
You're going to have to be more specific.
Click to expand...
"Original context" is a form of false dichotomy: everyone presenting an argument here has an original context. And no one it seems has grasped the one presented by Fatihah.

Post #220: "The proof of the existence of God is obvious. For if any of us looked around us right now at any of the things in existence, each any every object is a creation from a creator. Show me anything around you right now which was not created? You can't. We can't. It came to be by being created. Even if you say that something evolved, the process of evolution itself is a form of creating. For the only way possible for something to exists is it being created. That being said, the universe and life itself had to have a creator. "

Then the arguments spun to, what creates Allah.

Post #224: "Allah has no creator, for Allah never came into existence."

Then the spin moved to the universe always existing, hence no need to imagine it "having been created".

Post #229: [the basic materials that make up the universe have always existed in some form or another] "If you mean in a physical form, then no. But in the knowledge or plan of Allah, yes."

Post #238: "To the contrary, the question I pose is within itself adressing the question as to whether or not physical reality is a creation, for the question I posed is asking for you to explain how the things around you came into existence." (i.e. what creates existence) "I never stated that everything was created, but rather asking how it came to be. However, once we do analyze everything around us, the answer to the question is obvious. And that is that everything is in fact a creation from a creator."

i.e. Everything around us here and now is "creation from a creator". This is presenting an image of "what lies behind existence" itself. We can point to evolution or the forces of nature, or an apparent permanence of time (always has been), or even "the invisible sky fairy," but none of those provide an answer (or even a suitable response) to the question of why there is something (existence) rather than nothing. "Creation" is a symbol for all existence. "Creator" is a symbol for the idea that something produces the existence of all things.

Post #243: "Can you point to anything around you that is not a creation from a creator? If so, what."

 
Kilgore Trout

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Willamena said:
"Original context" is a form of false dichotomy: everyone presenting an argument here has an original context. And no one it seems has grasped the one presented by Fatihah.

Post #220: "The proof of the existence of God is obvious. For if any of us looked around us right now at any of the things in existence, each any every object is a creation from a creator. Show me anything around you right now which was not created? You can't. We can't. It came to be by being created. Even if you say that something evolved, the process of evolution itself is a form of creating. For the only way possible for something to exists is it being created. That being said, the universe and life itself had to have a creator. "
Click to expand...

I have no problem grasping the one presented by Fatihah. It's simply illogical.
 
Beaudreaux

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
Fatihah said:
Response: He never came to be. He always existed. We know so through the prophet Muhammad by the miracle he left, which is the qur'an.
In the qur'an we read:

In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted. For this is a test which proves that the qur'an is within itself supernatural because it is humanly impossible for anyone to produce a chapter like it. And since it is humanly impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an, then the creator of the qur'an must be supernatural, and that supernatural being is none other than Allah. You disagree? Then the challenge still stands. Produce a chapter like it.
Click to expand...
[busy at photocopier]
Give me a few minutes....
 
Perfect Circle

Perfect Circle

Just Browsing
Fatihah said:
Response: He never came to be. He always existed. We know so through the prophet Muhammad by the miracle he left, which is the qur'an.
In the qur'an we read:

In ch: 4:82 of the qur'an, "Will they not,then, meditate upon the Qur'an? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy". Also in ch.2:23 we read "And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful".

Here we have two tests to prove the authenticity and truth of the qur'an. Once applied, you will come to learn that the qur'an is in fact from Allah and has never nor will it ever be corrupted. For this is a test which proves that the qur'an is within itself supernatural because it is humanly impossible for anyone to produce a chapter like it. And since it is humanly impossible to produce a chapter like the qur'an, then the creator of the qur'an must be supernatural, and that supernatural being is none other than Allah. You disagree? Then the challenge still stands. Produce a chapter like it.
Click to expand...

Oooooohhh.... Well now I'm convinced. I'd never thought to read a 1400 year old book put together after the "author's" death as fact. Jeez... This whole time..
 
Copernicus

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Fatihah said:
Response: How does one have a PH.D and lack common logic in the same field at the same time? Surely you gave a lecture, but your lecture was missing the most important element.... facts. All you've said was a bunch of statements. There's the statement. Where's the proof? Simply saying something is true is not proof that it is so.
Click to expand...

I wish that you would remember this point when reading the Quran, which is a "bunch of statements". But anyone can see that you are just doing what you blame everyone else for doing.

I thought that the following comment by you (ignoring the spelling and grammar problems) was a very good description of your own behavior:

Fatihah said:
Response: Again, there's no need to conversate with a grown adult who doesn't no basic simple english. But it is however the classic rebuttle. When a person can't refute the argument presented, in order to keep afloat, they reduce themselves to argue and play with meaning of words in the argument, rather than the argument itself. The unfortunate part is that they are to blind to see that the such an argument only makes them look more absurd because they're consistantly demonstrating a lack of understanding simple and basic english.
Click to expand...
 
Perfect Circle

Perfect Circle

Just Browsing
Copernicus said:
I wish that you would remember this point when reading the Quran, which is a "bunch of statements". But anyone can see that you are just doing what you blame everyone else for doing.

I thought that the following comment by you (ignoring the spelling and grammar problems) was a very good description of your own behavior:
Click to expand...

There you go again Copernicus... Always with the statements! Sometimes declarative, sometimes interrogative... And still no proof! Obviously, Fati never directly said that the Quran is a "bunch of statements", and if he didn't clearly state it, then how can you see that in his response? If you had even the slightest comprehension of the English language, you would understand. It's abundantly clear now that you've stumbled into the "fati is wrong" logical fallacy.
 
Runewolf1973

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
About the only thing referring to the Abrahamic God that I personally really like is from the Gospel of Thomas...

"....the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you"...."I am the light that shines over all things. I am everywhere. From me all came forth, and to me all return.Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there..."

To me, this gospel speaks of existence and the forces within nature. It does not say that God is a man-like deity, but rather that God is more like the Spirit or the animating principal (the naturally existing energy or forces) behind everything that exists. That includes everything science knows, but also all those things waiting to be discovered that exist we just don't know it yet. The known and also that which is unknown. As far as I'm concerned, God as a man-like omnipotent deity only exists in the minds of Man. The true nature of what God is is the Spirit of nature itself, the energy of the universe, and the consciousness or breath of life. But that is just my belief.
 
Last edited:
Perfect Circle

Perfect Circle

Just Browsing
Runewolf1973 said:
About the only thing referring to the Abrahamic God that I personally really like is from the Gospel of Thomas...

"....the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you"...."I am the light that shines over all things. I am everywhere. From me all came forth, and to me all return.Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there..."

To me, this gospel speaks of existence and the forces within nature. It does not say that God is a man-like deity, but rather that God is more like the Spirit or the animating principal (the naturally existing energy or forces) behind everything that exists. That includes everything science knows, but also all those things waiting to be discovered that exist we just don't know it yet. The known and also that which is unknown. As far as I'm concerned, God as a man-like omnipotent deity only exists in the minds of Man. The true nature of what God is is the spirit of nature itself, the energy of the universe, and the consciousness or breath of life.
Click to expand...

I would say that this is closest thing to a concept of god that I have. However, I really have no evidence for it... It's kind of a feeling. Could be totally wrong though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top