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Let's Present Some Evidence ...

Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
DSM Code 297.1: Delusional Disorder
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Non-bizarre delusions including feelings of being followed, poisoned, infected, deceived or conspired against, or loved at a distance. Non-bizarre referred to real life situations which could be true, but are not or are greatly exaggerated. Bizarre delusions, which would rule out this disorder, are those such as believing that your stomach is missing or that aliens are seeking you out to be their leader. Delusional disorder can be subtyped into the following categories: erotomanic, grandiose, jealous, persecutory, somatic, and mixed. Symptoms include:[/FONT]
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Nonbizarre delusions for at least one month.[/FONT]
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Absence of obviously odd or bizarre behavior.[/FONT]
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Schizoaffective Disorder and Mood Disorder with Psychotic Features have been ruled out.[/FONT]
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Absence of evidence that an organic factor initiated and maintained this psychotic disturbance.[/FONT]
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Absence of prominent hallucinations of a voice for at least one week. Absence of visual hallucinations for at least one week.[/FONT]
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Has never met the criteria for the active phase of Schizophrenia.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Subtypes[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Erotomanic Type: Predominately erotomanic delusions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Grandiose Type: Predominately grandiose delusions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jealous Type: Predominately delusions of jealousy.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Persecutory Type: Predominately persecutory delusions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Somatic Type: Predominately somatic delusions.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unspecified Type: Doesn't fit any of the previous categories.
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Nothing in there about religion.
 
M

Michel07

Active Member
Mr Cheese said:
A materialist discussing spiritual experiences is like a virgin giving tips on sex.

You can only see, if you look
You can only hear, if you listen

Why argue with the blind and the deaf?

"Things divine are not attainable by mortals who understand sensual things."

--Zoroaster
Click to expand...

Point well taken.
 
OmarKhayyam

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
Storm said:
Perhaps, rather than linking to an article we can't read for free, you could tell us where religious belief is listed in the DSM.
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The issue wasn't religious belief. It was "spiritual experiences."

Talking with god. Throwing an ink well at the devil. See your dearly departed in heaven beckoning to you to come. Hearing the voice of god commanding you to do this or that.

All experiences reported by one or more true believer's. Such occurrences were cited as evidence for the existence of god.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
OmarKhayyam said:
The issue wasn't religious belief. It was "spiritual experiences."

Talking with god. Throwing an ink well at the devil. See your dearly departed in heaven beckoning to you to come. Hearing the voice of god commanding you to do this or that.

All experiences reported by one or more true believer's. Such occurrences were cited as evidence for the existence of god.
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Trance states are not hallucination. Correctly interpreted or not, they're very real.

I'm one of the people you're dismissing as delusional, yeat not a one of the many psychiatric professionals whose care I've been under over the years considers me delusional.

So maybe you shouldn't mouth off on topics you know nothing about.
 
T

themadhair

Well-Known Member
Storm said:
I'm one of the people you're dismissing as delusional, yeat not a one of the many psychiatric professionals whose care I've been under over the years considers me delusional.
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I don't really want to go here...but...those same professionals also don't follow your theology. Just saying.
 
M

Michel07

Active Member
themadhair said:
Reread my comment within its context. Twisting the words of others in this way to attempt a petty dig is a little pathetic imo.
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Let me explain a little better as to why your position is not neutral and you are exercising belief in something else. I did not invent religion but have had to learn about it from other people and sources.(And I still do.) You did not invent atheism but also have had to learn of it from others. You have chosen to believe those who told you God does not exist while I have chosen to believe those who say God does exist. We are both exercising belief which is proactive and not neutral.
 
T

themadhair

Well-Known Member
Michel07 said:
Let me explain a little better as to why your position is not neutral and you are exercising belief in something else. I did not invent religion but have had to learn about it from other people and sources.(And I still do.) You did not invent atheism but also have had to learn of it from others. You have chosen to believe those who told you God does not exist while I have chosen to believe those who say God does exist. We are both exercising belief which is proactive and not neutral.
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Curiously my beliefs would be the same whether or not religion did or did not exist. That I had to reject religion to get there doesn't change that. When I think about the world and what it means I do not do it in terms of "there is no god". The concept of god is something that doesn't enter my beliefs in the slightest and has no consequence for me.

Just because the concept, in various forms, is championed by others doesn't render me non-neutral if my current worldview would exist regardless.
 
M

Michel07

Active Member
OmarKhayyam said:
The issue wasn't religious belief. It was "spiritual experiences."

Talking with god. Throwing an ink well at the devil. See your dearly departed in heaven beckoning to you to come. Hearing the voice of god commanding you to do this or that.

All experiences reported by one or more true believer's. Such occurrences were cited as evidence for the existence of god.
Click to expand...

No one is denying that hallucinations can and do occur but the dismissal of all metaphysical, spiritual or mystical experiences in NOT a science apart from the fact that it is remarkably narrow minded.
 
M

Michel07

Active Member
themadhair said:
Curiously my beliefs would be the same whether or not religion did or did not exist. That I had to reject religion to get there doesn't change that. When I think about the world and what it means I do not do it in terms of "there is no god". The concept of god is something that doesn't enter my beliefs in the slightest and has no consequence for me.

Just because the concept, in various forms, is championed by others doesn't render me non-neutral if my current worldview would exist regardless.
Click to expand...

You can't honestly claim that because it is not your experience.May I ask what your beliefs are regarding death since it is a crucial aspect in metaphysical beliefs.
 
T

themadhair

Well-Known Member
Michel07 said:
You can't honestly claim that because it is not your experience.
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And why not? If the concept of denying god is not part of my belief structure then how can it be non-neutral??? If my belief structure is independent of a concept how can that belief structure be anything other than neutral?

May I ask what your beliefs are regarding death since it is a crucial aspect in metaphysical beliefs.
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Everything I’ve seen indicates that death is a rather permanent condition.
 
M

Michel07

Active Member
themadhair said:
And why not? If the concept of denying god is not part of my belief structure then how can it be non-neutral??? If my belief structure is independent of a concept how can that belief structure be anything other than neutral?


Everything I’ve seen indicates that death is a rather permanent condition.
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Are you saying we are just biological and subject to nothing upon death? No conciousness etc.?
 
OmarKhayyam

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
Michel07 said:
Let me explain a little better as to why your position is not neutral and you are exercising belief in something else. I did not invent religion but have had to learn about it from other people and sources.(And I still do.) You did not invent atheism but also have had to learn of it from others. You have chosen to believe those who told you God does not exist while I have chosen to believe those who say God does exist. We are both exercising belief which is proactive and not neutral.
Click to expand...

I did not chose to believe others. If I did I would still be wasting my life in worship of ancient mythological characters. I REASONED there was no bible god. I was an atheist before I knew what the word meant. Until my dear pastor told me I was I didn't know. And his objection was EXACTLY that I had reasoned my way to that conclusion. I had never read a word (knowingly) by any atheist and most certainly never meet one in person.

You theists are SO arrogant about your god thingy. Some of us are just NOT impressed with ANY of your myths. From Athena to LGM it is ALL the product of wishful thinking and childish faith. Both unworthy of a mature mind.
 
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